[Greenkirby21]

that commercial made me teat up a lil : <

[GoingTooFast]

Toyota & BMW to Develop Sports Car... who would thought about that?!

[BMW269]

^ That could bring us some of the best sportscars in the world. Toyota and other Japanese have the best EPS in the world, the M3 could need it. Both BMW and Toyota are the most profitable and capable car companies in the world.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Levi

I think we all know that the GT86 is a good car but lacks straight line performance, becuase the car still does not weigh 600 kg but 1200 kg. The remedy is + 50-100 PS more power. How to get that ? Two solutions:
-forced induction, either supercharger or turbocharger, but we know the downsides of them which are to different extent added wieght and less responsive throttle
- larger capacity and higher revvs but with downside that it will be a worse daily driver


All in all, eventhough the GT86 is one of the best sportscar, from a drivers perspective, better is possible. But there is only one way to do better : only two seats (not 2+2) and NA H6. In other words Supra V.


I do not care much about 2+2 seat configuration of the GT86/BRZ because my aim was and still is to have this car as track car only. As a daily driver I'd prefere a Cayman S (the next generation), but its twice the price of one of the twins. I have to wait.

Levi, I'm sorry to say it but I think you are missing the point. The BMW E30 M3 was a 2+2 seat and it wasn't specially powerful in the US trim, at 192 hp (6750 rpm) with catalytic converter (83.5 hp /litre), for a 2735 lbs (1240 kg) car and yet it was the car that gave BMW's reputation for great everyday use vehicle dynamics, NOT some two-seater sports coupe . As Chris Harris has so well put it:

M cars are not about engines, they are about chassis.

Of course that having a 2.3L displacement engine the E30 M3 had higher max. torque, 170 lb-ft (230 Nm @ 4750 rpm), further complemented by the small 205/55-15 tires. However, max. torque was available over a much narrower rpm band and the US overdrive gearbox had taller gear ratios (except 1st and 2nd) for the same final drive ratio when compared to the Toyobaru:




.............. Toyobaru................ E30 M3 (US model)
1st............ 3.63:1................... 3.83:1..............
2nd............ 2.19:1................... 2.20:1.............
3rd............ 1.54:1................... 1.40:1..............
4th............ 1.21:1................... 1.00:1..............
5th............ 1.00:1................... 0.81:1..............
6th............ 0.77:1..........................................
Final drive... 4.10:1................... 4.10:1..............


The E30 M3 in standard trim had a maximum permissible continuous engine speed of 6900rpm (7000 rpm redline) and boasted 7.6s in 0-62 mph (not the 0-60 mph time as it is wrongly stated in the picture) and a top speed of 230 km/h or 143 mph with catalytic converter (235 km/h or 146 mph without a catalyst). Even the dimensions are basically the same for the Toyobaru and the E30 M3 as far as weight, weight distribution front/rear, wheelbase and overall lenght go:







The S14 engine of the E30 M3 albeit canted over 30 degrees to the right lowering the center of gravity and balancing out the weight of the driver still had a significant 30 inch height when measured on a vertical axis and weighted 380 lbs (172 kg) fully dressed 'wet'. To give you a better idea of the meaning of that the S2000's F20C engine is a much more compact unit weighting only 326 lbs (148 kg) fully dressed and its height is 25 inch on the vertical axis with the engine canted over to the right by 15 degrees only:






Also, it's not so much a question of power but torque. To give you an example, my 1M could well had a 5000 rpm redline and only 300 hp because that's where the BIG torque, hence max. acceleration, is and I don't feel the need to rev it higher.


As you can see... the Toyobaru really is a cornerstone:

[GoingTooFast]

Just want to highlight that the E30 M3 weight distribution front/rear was NOT BMW's self-proclaimed best 50:50, it was 53:47 instead.

So, Toyota and Subaru were right about their empirical experience:

After numerous weight distribution trials, we came to two conclusions:

1. One, to be front-biased to achieve a pure sense of steering;
2. Another, that the car be very controllable during a slide;

In other words, to be able to control precisely the weight distribution using the brake and gas, maximizing the joy out of a corner. That sense of driver control has been our focus.

Do you think it's coincidence?! I don't think so...

[GoingTooFast]

"Is Technology Making Cars Worse?"

No! Weight is!


If every car brand CEO did as Akio Toyoda says he does... the focus would always be the driving experience (remember Ferry Porsche?!):




Ferry Porsche:

If I build a car that gives me satisfaction, then there must be others with the same sort of dreams who would be prepared to buy such a car.

[evolution80]

awesome car

will they make a sti version?

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by evolution80

awesome car

will they make a sti version?

I'm hopping that they put an 1.6L turbo engine in the Toyobaru just for one doesn't have to use the hand-brake much :

[GoingTooFast]

BMW Rep Says Toyota's Sports Car will Have a Unique Design, Insider Hints at 6-Series-Based Supra

The sports car that BMW and Toyota plan to jointly develop could be a way for Toyota to leap back into a performance segment it has abandoned or possibly provide a high-priced sports model for Toyota's Lexus brand.

The two companies agreed last week to work together on an "environmentally friendly" sports car as well as on fuel-cell, electric vehicle components and lightweight materials.

"BMW's strength is in developing sports cars," said Toyota President Akio Toyoda, a racing fan who repeatedly has said he wants to add zest to Toyota's lineup. "I am excited to think of the cars that will result from this relationship."

Toyoda and BMW CEO Norbert Reithofer signed the agreement in Munich.

Details and timing of the cooperation were not discussed. But the sports cars will not be identical or share a common exterior design like the jointly developed Subaru BRZ, Toyota 86 and Scion FR-S coupes, said a BMW spokeswoman in Munich. The Subaru/Toyota coupes went on sale this year.

BMW's vehicle "will be a sustainable sports car with environmentally friendly technology," she said. "We are developing the architecture and components for this future car."

A BMW insider speculated that the collaboration could provide the basis for the return of the Toyota Supra, possibly using the BMW 6-series architecture. The Supra, once the performance spearhead of the Toyota lineup, was last produced in 2002.

"Anything is possible," the senior BMW manager told Autoweek, a sibling publication of Automotive News Europe. "The key factor is that the products of both companies retain their own individual character, despite jointly developed technologies."

[GoingTooFast]

^^^It seems someone has heard you, Levi ...

[GoingTooFast]

Back to the real thing... what is the difference?!

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

^^^It seems someone has heard you, Levi ...

That is why I keep repeating what I say. It has been some years I taked about renaming the 1 Series and 3 Series Coupé/Convertible to 2 Series and 4 Series.

A 6 Series based Supra will never exist, you can be sure of that. Look at the LFA and the GT86, they are lightweight cars unlike the 6 Series. Toyota will never accept that for its Supra. I would say the Supra should be based on a CF version of the next Z5/Z5 on which BMW wants to build its M-Two. Again everything depends on what do both BMW and Toyota want to achieve ? Do they want to win races thanks to "Monster" power like the F12 and Aventador, or do they want to win thanks ot power-to-weight ratio ? In this case +400 PS would be enough in a -1200 kg car.

[josephr25]

Imma check out the FR-S today. Hooman Toyota in Long Beach is offering free oil changes and tires for life.

[GoingTooFast]

This reminded me of the reason why BMW made such an impression on me (thanks to whoever brought it to my attention)... and NO, the E30 M3 is NOT and NEVER was overrated... It's simply the best and the best looking BMW EVER . Now, that's driving FUN:

[GoingTooFast]

I'm sorry but I've let myself get carried away by sweet memories...

[MMMMM3]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

I'm sorry but I've let myself get carried away by sweet memories...

Have to take issue with your sig though:

1. Fernando Alonso 111
2. Mark Webber 91
3. Lewis Hamilton 88

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by MMMMM3

Have to take issue with your sig though:

1. Fernando Alonso 111
2. Mark Webber 91
3. Lewis Hamilton 88

Anything different from my sig has got to do with different car performances (including reliability issues) and different team strategies... not with the driver.

[GoingTooFast]

Back to the future...

[GoingTooFast]

Beautiful...

[GoingTooFast]

Still beautiful...

[GoingTooFast]

[GoingTooFast]

RWD vs AWD ... Old Technology vs New Technology... so, where does the driving FUN lay?