[Nkc]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

What do I get out of marriage?
Trust, for one. Its a covenant with each other. Not saying cheating doesn't happen, clearly it does, but I trust her fully, and not just in the area of fidelity. I trust that if I get sick, she's not going to just pack up and leave - there is a deep committment in marriage, but it has to be shared by both sides. And it doesn't sound like you share that, but honestly, its probably because you're with the wrong woman (I'm being blunt).

Mutual respect and support is another - when you're just long term relationship, that's all it is. The woman's side of it is that you want an easy out should you find something better (which frankly I agree that this is unfair to ask of a woman), and from a guy's point of view, you are trying to protect yourself against a system biased against you should you divorce for no fault of your own (however, if you cheat, I think you deserve to make those payments, if she cheats, I think she should get nothing, it should be simplified). But in marriage, you're tied to each other, you have a mutual respect for each other and want the other to succeed (and in doing so, certainly you are reaping benefits too), and you are united in a common goal because you share enough similarities on the important issues that you work together.

I don't know really how better to describe it, there's a lot more, sure, but its hard to put into words. But I certainly am happy I'm married. So don't write it off just yet.

Jokerr ain't joking this time. Great post. 100% agree.

I'll throw in some pros to this argument too:

1) Family
As you grow older, you'll inevitably feel like an urge to have your own family. Going thru your teen's and 20's, you'll start to actually see what's valuable in life. You've plowed thru the bitches, the cars, the parties and the shit gets old once your body can't catch up (unless ur on coke 24/7). You'll want something solid, something reliable in life which is where a marriage makes sense. Its a start of a family.

2) Kids
I don't know how most of you guys here feel but I love kids. I've never really felt this degree of happiness in my life until I had my son. It gave true purpose to my life and it was the day that I could finally call myself a man. Kids are usually a natural progression after marriage and it would be tough to find a girl willing to give you a kid without getting married.

3) Love
I don't think I need to explain this one.

[Foxrus14]

Prenup!!! We signed a prenup and neither one of us had a problem with it. Actually did Prenup and living wills at the same time!!! Be an adult and cover all your bases

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by Templar

I could just be jaded because I feel like I've found the perfect person for me. All the little things about me that people have said they hated, she loves. I never really believed the whole "soul mate/one person for everyone" thing, but she's been able to put up with me so far, and I haven't changed my lifestyle that much at all (except dating other women ).

Templar is in love.

[BMWrules7]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

What do I get out of marriage?
Trust, for one. Its a covenant with each other. Not saying cheating doesn't happen, clearly it does, but I trust her fully, and not just in the area of fidelity. I trust that if I get sick, she's not going to just pack up and leave - there is a deep committment in marriage, but it has to be shared by both sides. And it doesn't sound like you share that, but honestly, its probably because you're with the wrong woman (I'm being blunt).

Mutual respect and support is another - when you're just long term relationship, that's all it is. The woman's side of it is that you want an easy out should you find something better (which frankly I agree that this is unfair to ask of a woman), and from a guy's point of view, you are trying to protect yourself against a system biased against you should you divorce for no fault of your own (however, if you cheat, I think you deserve to make those payments, if she cheats, I think she should get nothing, it should be simplified). But in marriage, you're tied to each other, you have a mutual respect for each other and want the other to succeed (and in doing so, certainly you are reaping benefits too), and you are united in a common goal because you share enough similarities on the important issues that you work together.

I don't know really how better to describe it, there's a lot more, sure, but its hard to put into words. But I certainly am happy I'm married. So don't write it off just yet.

Happiness is the elusive goal. In reality, happiness comes and goes and lasts about 30 milliseconds longer than an orgasm. In fact, the two are more closely related than you might think.

Kids change women. I wish someone explained that to me ahead of time.

The problem with divorce, is the costly realisation that you learn after your second marriage that most of your complaints were not due to your partner, but were really due to the human condition present in all women.

Plus, your second marriage will lead you down to picking the same type of person as your first marriage---it is subliminal and you are wired to pick a similar partner.

Next, the ultimate costly boo boo is uncovered when you discover the real cause of your failed marriage was you. That one hurts the most.

As such, divorce is the final step to the adult maturation process. You really haven't reached the pinnacle of maturity until you go through a divorce.

It is almost like divorce is a right of passage. It is something many of us have to experience before we finally grow up and learn the value of life.

I didn't see it this way until after I got remarried. But, divorce is completely selfish. In fact, it is one of the most selfish, shameful acts one can experience.

Worse, these whimpy therapists don't understand men. Men are looking for direction when trying to decide if a divorce is the correct path. Therapists are trained not to give guidance. All they do is listen.

I have been blessed for the second time with my new wife and I don't know why God has been so good to me. I don't deserve it.

My advice is for anyone contemplating divorce (outside of brutality) that you should just agree to take a six month break from each other. I think that would be all that is needed for both sides to realize how good they had it.

[i dunno]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

What do I get out of marriage?
Trust, for one. Its a covenant with each other. Not saying cheating doesn't happen, clearly it does, but I trust her fully, and not just in the area of fidelity. I trust that if I get sick, she's not going to just pack up and leave - there is a deep committment in marriage, but it has to be shared by both sides. And it doesn't sound like you share that, but honestly, its probably because you're with the wrong woman (I'm being blunt).

Mutual respect and support is another - when you're just long term relationship, that's all it is. The woman's side of it is that you want an easy out should you find something better (which frankly I agree that this is unfair to ask of a woman), and from a guy's point of view, you are trying to protect yourself against a system biased against you should you divorce for no fault of your own (however, if you cheat, I think you deserve to make those payments, if she cheats, I think she should get nothing, it should be simplified). But in marriage, you're tied to each other, you have a mutual respect for each other and want the other to succeed (and in doing so, certainly you are reaping benefits too), and you are united in a common goal because you share enough similarities on the important issues that you work together.

I don't know really how better to describe it, there's a lot more, sure, but its hard to put into words. But I certainly am happy I'm married. So don't write it off just yet.

these things are just as applicable to healthy long term relationships too. marriage has no bearing on how the actual relationship is.

[Billup]

Originally Posted by BMWrules7

Happiness is the elusive goal. In reality, happiness comes and goes and lasts about 30 milliseconds longer than an orgasm. In fact, the two are more closely related than you might think.

Kids change women. I wish someone explained that to me ahead of time.

The problem with divorce, is the costly realisation that you learn after your second marriage that most of your complaints were not due to your partner, but were really due to the human condition present in all women.

Plus, your second marriage will lead you down to picking the same type of person as your first marriage---it is subliminal and you are wired to pick a similar partner.

Next, the ultimate costly boo boo is uncovered when you discover the real cause of your failed marriage was you. That one hurts the most.

As such, divorce is the final step to the adult maturation process. You really haven't reached the pinnacle of maturity until you go through a divorce.

It is almost like divorce is a right of passage. It is something many of us have to experience before we finally grow up and learn the value of life.

I didn't see it this way until after I got remarried. But, divorce is completely selfish. In fact, it is one of the most selfish, shameful acts one can experience.

Worse, these whimpy therapists don't understand men. Men are looking for direction when trying to decide if a divorce is the correct path. Therapists are trained not to give guidance. All they do is listen.

I have been blessed for the second time with my new wife and I don't know why God has been so good to me. I don't deserve it.

My advice is for anyone contemplating divorce (outside of brutality) that you should just agree to take a six month break from each other. I think that would be all that is needed for both sides to realize how good they had it.

Kids change everyone, not only women, sometimes men for the better. Because lets face it, a woman could handle a child much sooner on her own than most men.

The human condition that is present in women is clearly insanity. I'm blessed with the fact that I have not only superiority to any woman, but far more knowledge than they could ever amount to, Michelle Obama included.

Second marriage? That is more terrifying than a first marriage. I value learning from ones past, but for myself, I would learn that if it doesn't work once, I don't want to chance twice. I'm also selfish that I almost don't care to even try once.

The last one, I don't think I will ever discover that any issue is with me. I'm pretty awesome. I love tooting my own horn, and while I may be ignorant with many aspects of life, it will always be the woman's fault.

I respect anyone that has rebounded off an unfortunate situation, more than couples that have been together from day one. From the way times are now, compared to earlier generations, baby boomers even, there have become very scewed views on "how things should be". However, that is a whole different topic in itself.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Billup

Kids change everyone, not only women, sometimes men for the better. Because lets face it, a woman could handle a child much sooner on her own than most men.

The human condition that is present in women is clearly insanity. I'm blessed with the fact that I have not only superiority to any woman, but far more knowledge than they could ever amount to, Michelle Obama included.

Second marriage? That is more terrifying than a first marriage. I value learning from ones past, but for myself, I would learn that if it doesn't work once, I don't want to chance twice. I'm also selfish that I almost don't care to even try once.

The last one, I don't think I will ever discover that any issue is with me. I'm pretty awesome. I love tooting my own horn, and while I may be ignorant with many aspects of life, it will always be the woman's fault.

I respect anyone that has rebounded off an unfortunate situation, more than couples that have been together from day one. From the way times are now, compared to earlier generations, baby boomers even, there have become very scewed views on "how things should be". However, that is a whole different topic in itself.

i appreciate the sarcasm

[F32Fleet]

To anyone who ends up paying alimony....try to make it hard as possible for her to have a live in boyfriend. Review your state laws regarding common law marriages. There are a lot of women who never remarried because they don't want to loose the alimony so they have "live in" boyfriends. I've been told it's popular in Fla.

[UncleWede]

Life is all about change. You can adapt to it, or be crushed by it.

I'm one of the lucky ones. The divorce we just said that is yours and this is mine, see you down the road. I do still see her once in a while.

The second wife, we sometimes fight like cats and dogs. There is something in our mixture that just lights a fire in the other, sometimes that isn't good.

My son changed my life. It has cost my wife over the years because I am more dedicated to him than to her. Normally the jealousy is experienced by the father, but I think the wife gets it now.

NOBODY is your perfect match. The question you have to ask every day: Am I better off with her, or without? Do teh good things outweigh the bad?

[Billup]

Originally Posted by grimlock

i appreciate the sarcasm

I really hate that most of it be sarcasm, but unfortunately, its how I truly feel (Obviously not superior to anyone, we are all human and have different personalities). But in the respect of people having a second marriage and such, those who succeed, I sincerely tip my hat to. However, for myself, it would be one and then done.

I am almost unsure how people (men specifically), handle two divorces? Are you now paying alimony for TWO women? I'm sure the second marriage can't end any differently for the man just because he chose to get married again? Is he now basically paying double?

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Billup

I really hate that most of it be sarcasm, but unfortunately, its how I truly feel (Obviously not superior to anyone, we are all human and have different personalities). But in the respect of people having a second marriage and such, those who succeed, I sincerely tip my hat to. However, for myself, it would be one and then done.

I am almost unsure how people (men specifically), handle two divorces? Are you now paying alimony for TWO women? I'm sure the second marriage can't end any differently for the man just because he chose to get married again? Is he now basically paying double?

I was reading this book that blamed feminism for most of the relationship problems in the modern era.
Basically, women have externalized the blame for their problems to the generalization of 'men' - that they are the imprisoners of women.
They do this because they don't realize the true cause of their issues - which is the denial of their feminine INNATE nature, which is also ironic as 'feminism' is the blaming of men, when in fact they are women and deny their own natures.. i don't know if they want to be men or they want to destroy all men.

[carve]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

(however, if you cheat, I think you deserve to make those payments, if she cheats, I think she should get nothing, it should be simplified).

What a double-standard! I wonder why feminists aren't fighting for equal rights in divorce :P ?

[carve]

Originally Posted by BMWrules7

My advice is for anyone contemplating divorce (outside of brutality) that you should just agree to take a six month break from each other. I think that would be all that is needed for both sides to realize how good they had it.

My ex and I had never really seriously dated anybody but each other. Although exceptionally friendly, she didn't do anything to further our goals and maintain the household, was totally driven by fear, didn't take the best care of herself, and had about 5% of my sex drive (after the "I do" and some weight gain). Basically, my messy roommate and travel buddy. I'd ask her in counseling "what do you think I'm getting out of this marriage" and she could never answer beyond "being there" (uhhh....you have to do a lot more than just show up and smile to make a relationship work). I felt that's the best I could do...like I was doing something to deserve this due to being an asshole and flawed. I'd try even harder, and she'd respond by doing even less. My self confidence was in the gutter and I became depressed. On paper though I felt I had a lot going for me...athletic, quick-witted, decent career and $, adventurous, etc. I eventually couldn't take it, so took the big risk. We took a break for a few months and I immediately started dating to find out if it was my fault and that was the best I could hope for. It only took a few weeks to meet a woman I felt vastly more compatible with, and in the 1.5 years since I've met MANY who are even more compatible than that one, have had many women fall crazy in love with me, a mind-blowing sex life (last night was some of the wildest sex I've ever had), and even taking care of the house and stuff is easier alone. I'm happier in every way and don't miss my ex and my old life in any way, and haven't seen or spoken to her since the day the moving truck pulled away. I'm no longer depressed. Anyway, my point is, as long as you're not needy and willing to take a risk, a break made me realize how BAD I had it and how FANTASTIC I could have it.

Of course, the abundance of interesting women has now given me the opposite (much preferable) problem; I'm a total commitment phobe because things just keep getting better and better, and there's always some characteristic I prefer about someone else. The girl I'm primarily dating now is not the best in most areas, but damn close to it across the board. She broke up with her ex because he wanted a pre-nup (although it was kind of understandable as she put a lot of money into the things they had). I suppose what's in it for a man to commit is to have someone to help you in rough times and to prevent the best girl you can land from leaving. I'm kind of leaning that way with her, but due to the abundance of great women I've discovered I'm much less afraid of someone leaving now. I'm not even sure if I can fall head-over-heels in love any more. Ironically, the lack of neediness you exhibit when you realize this makes you even more attractive to women.

A nice way to avoid paying alimony (adult support!? Really? Are you fcuking kidding me?!) is to only date women who make, or will make, similar money to you and are very independent natured.

[carve]

Originally Posted by grimlock

I was reading this book that blamed feminism for most of the relationship problems in the modern era.
Basically, women have externalized the blame for their problems to the generalization of 'men' - that they are the imprisoners of women.
They do this because they don't realize the true cause of their issues - which is the denial of their feminine INNATE nature, which is also ironic as 'feminism' is the blaming of men, when in fact they are women and deny their own natures.. i don't know if they want to be men or they want to destroy all men.

I'll agree with that. Ironically, feminism has also turned most men of the last generation or two of men into emasculated pussies afraid to show dominance, and you can't really light most women's fire without that, so they wind up becoming unattracted and resentful. It had it's place as far as equal rights though, but there are gender roles built into our biology. Many women understand this and love to be absolutely dominated in bed. I think, ironically, it's because it makes them feel powerful. It shows them the sexual power they have over men to make them lose control. It makes her feel like a woman and a man feel like a man.

[ScarecrowBoat]

Originally Posted by carve

My ex and I had never really seriously dated anybody but each other. Although exceptionally friendly, she didn't do anything to further our goals and maintain the household, was totally driven by fear, didn't take the best care of herself, and had about 5% of my sex drive (after the "I do" and some weight gain). Basically, my messy roommate and travel buddy. I'd ask her in counseling "what do you think I'm getting out of this marriage" and she could never answer beyond "being there" (uhhh....you have to do a lot more than just show up and smile to make a relationship work). I felt that's the best I could do...like I was doing something to deserve this due to being an asshole and flawed. I'd try even harder, and she'd respond by doing even less. My self confidence was in the gutter and I became depressed. On paper though I felt I had a lot going for me...athletic, quick-witted, decent career and $, adventurous, etc. I eventually couldn't take it, so took the big risk. We took a break for a few months and I immediately started dating to find out if it was my fault and that was the best I could hope for. It only took a few weeks to meet a woman I felt vastly more compatible with, and in the 1.5 years since I've met MANY who are even more compatible than that one, have had many women fall crazy in love with me, a mind-blowing sex life (last night was some of the wildest sex I've ever had), and even taking care of the house and stuff is easier alone. I'm happier in every way and don't miss my ex and my old life in any way, and haven't seen or spoken to her since the day the moving truck pulled away. I'm no longer depressed. Anyway, my point is, as long as you're not needy and willing to take a risk, a break made me realize how BAD I had it and how FANTASTIC I could have it.

Of course, the abundance of interesting women has now given me the opposite (much preferable) problem; I'm a total commitment phobe because things just keep getting better and better, and there's always some characteristic I prefer about someone else. The girl I'm primarily dating now is not the best in most areas, but damn near the best in most. She broke up with her ex because he wanted a pre-nup (although it was kind of understandable as she put a lot of money into the things they had). I suppose what's in it for a man to commit is to have someone to help you in rough times and to prevent the best girl you can land from leaving. I'm kind of leaning that way with her, but due to the abundance of great women I've discovered I'm much less afraid of someone leaving now. I'm not even sure if I can fall head-over-heels in love any more. Ironically, the lack of neediness you exhibit when you realize this makes you even more attractive to women.

A nice way to avoid paying alimony (adult support!? Really? Are you fcuking kidding me?!) is to only date women who make, or will make, similar money to you and are very independent natured.

Yikers.

I was terrified of the legal implications of marriage before reading this thread. Ho-lee-fuk-that now.

[carve]

Originally Posted by ScarecrowBoat

Yikers.

I was terrified of the legal implications of marriage before reading this thread. Ho-lee-fuk-that now.

Yeah...it's kind of a red flag, but the only one she has. However, she put a lot of money into the things they had, and walked away from all of it just to prove a point. She also makes about 80% of what I make with the potential to make a lot more. I've already lost half my assets though, and she walked away from hers, so that's a little unsettling. I wouldn't want to lose half of what I have left!

[ScarecrowBoat]

Originally Posted by carve

Yeah...it's kind of a red flag, but the only one she has. However, she put a lot of money into the things they had, and walked away from all of it just to prove a point. She also makes about 80% of what I make with the potential to make a lot more. I've already lost half my assets though, and she walked away from hers, so that's a little unsettling. I wouldn't want to lose half of what I have left!

I used to think marriage was a bad contract for a man to enter into. I have now realized it is the worst contract for a man to enter into.

The null position for a marriage should be if you get divorced, no alimony, no nothing for either party. Split right down the middle of any assets acquired during the marriage. If people want those things you should sign a pre-nup outlining that. Why do you have to sign one to avoid it!

The icing on the cake, really, is that the man is supposed to ask the woman with an expensive offering to enter into a contract that may later annihilate him. Classic.

[Billup]

Originally Posted by grimlock

I was reading this book that blamed feminism for most of the relationship problems in the modern era.
Basically, women have externalized the blame for their problems to the generalization of 'men' - that they are the imprisoners of women.
They do this because they don't realize the true cause of their issues - which is the denial of their feminine INNATE nature, which is also ironic as 'feminism' is the blaming of men, when in fact they are women and deny their own natures.. i don't know if they want to be men or they want to destroy all men.

This is interesting, because to this day, I still here from my girlfriend "All you men think the same, we just won't be on the same page", which sometimes I laugh at (bad idea), because I'm the only person she's ever been with. But for some reason, it IS an uneducated generalization of men. It usually ends up being a problem with a way I handle things, rather than her initial reactions to an issue, or quite honestly, just how she articulates with me (huffing and puffing, throwing F bombs, S bombs, getting hyped up). However, in the end, I didn't say the right thing or I "wasn't listening / missing the point".

I just figured it was typical female mentality to take their "emotions" and counter it into how a male is improperly handling a situation or discussion.

Pretty sure they are out to destroy all men, so in the mean time, I will destroy her vagina as a down payment.

[ddk632]

Originally Posted by carve

A nice way to avoid paying alimony (adult support!? Really? Are you fcuking kidding me?!) is to only date women who make, or will make, similar money to you and are very independent natured.

Dating means nothing for alimony. Many women put careers on hold once children come. Then, of those, many do not come back to work. Hence, you (the man) pay alimony. The longer you were married the worse off it is. In many states, 20 years married is considered long-term and you could be on the hook for lifetime alimony. At that time no one will care how much your ex made when you were dating.

[ddk632]

Originally Posted by ScarecrowBoat

I used to think marriage was a bad contract for a man to enter into. I have now realized it is the worst contract for a man to enter into.

The null position for a marriage should be if you get divorced, no alimony, no nothing for either party. Split right down the middle of any assets acquired during the marriage. If people want those things you should sign a pre-nup outlining that. Why do you have to sign one to avoid it!

The icing on the cake, really, is that the man is supposed to ask the woman with an expensive offering to enter into a contract that may later annihilate him. Classic.

It's a goddamn racket and we're brainwashed to believe in it.

[carve]

Originally Posted by ddk632

Dating means nothing for alimony. Many women put careers on hold once children come. Then, of those, many do not come back to work. Hence, you (the man) pay alimony. The longer you were married the worse off it is. In many states, 20 years married is considered long-term and you could be on the hook for lifetime alimony. At that time no one will care how much your ex made when you were dating.

Do I have to spell it out? You won't wind up falling in love with and marrying a woman you've never dated.


I'm OK with alimony if there was an agreement that she'd sacrifice her career for the kids, but then it should only be the difference between what she can make and what's necessary to have a lifestyle up to whatever the median is in your state. And, unless you're already at retirement age, it should sunset after enough years to get on her feet. No alimony for women who chose a low-paying career (e.g. teacher, trophy wife, etc.), no alimony to support anything above a median lifestyle, and no forever alimony unless you're already retired. There should also be no alimony for a divorce she initiates for any reason other than abuse- her choice. Women can take care of themselves.

The good thing about my ex being so fear driven is she gave up on alimony after I said I'd fight her until we both spent our last dollar on lawyers (which was a substantial amount). No kids, and she chose a low-paying career (even though she has more education than me, which I paid for!). Her choice shouldn't be my responsibility. She already got a huge chunk of money, most of which she didn't earn. I would've done it, too- out of principle alone. I'm nobodies slave, and this amounts to fractional ownership of your life...fractional slavery. It'd be easier for me to bounce back from losing everything, too.

I heard from a mutual friend that she got smacked with a healthy dose of reality now that she has to think about and handle all the things that just magically happened to be taken care of for her before. I feel bad for her, but I gave her about a decade of trying to get her to consider those things before pulling the plug. Far too long.

[ddk632]

Spell what out?

You suggested a way to "avoid" alimony and I was pointing out the fallacy of your suggestion.

And it's great you have all of these concepts of how it should work, but judges and state laws can give two shits about it - the whole thing is designed as a money grab for women.

Congrats that your ex gave up. Not all of them do.