[x622]

Today, Tesla pushed a notification to owners to not charge their EVs during peak hours in Texas.


Good. Now consumers are going to learn about Time of Use rates and what curtailment is.

All of these utilities are being forced to swap their carbon baseload for idiotic renewables by the powers that be, and this is the result. I wonder if the green geniuses in the EU are going to last this winter once the full reality of their energy situation sets in.

If anyone is going to make a comment about the "Texas electric grid" just don't. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by x622

Today, Tesla pushed a notification to owners to not charge their EVs during peak hours in Texas.


Good. Now consumers are going to learn about Time of Use rates and what curtailment is.

All of these utilities are being forced to swap their carbon baseload for idiotic renewables by the powers that be, and this is the result. I wonder if the green geniuses in the EU are going to last this winter once the full reality of their energy situation sets in.

If anyone is going to make a comment about the "Texas electric grid" just don't. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Unfortunately many need to "feel it" before they believe it.

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by x622

Today, Tesla pushed a notification to owners to not charge their EVs during peak hours in Texas.

Why would anyone charge during peak times anyways...? Much higher kW rates. Every EV out there, and the nice chargers all have a "schedule" feature so you can plug them in but they wont charge until the set time. I never charge during the day... Why pay $0.13 per kW when I charge overnight and pay ~$0.08 per kW?

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by Conissah

Why would anyone charge during peak times anyways...? Much higher kW rates. Every EV out there, and the nice chargers all have a "schedule" feature so you can plug them in but they wont charge until the set time. I never charge during the day... Why pay $0.13 per kW when I charge overnight and pay ~$0.08 per kW?

So if it costs $16 vs $10 (or whatever "nominal" fill up amount) plenty of people would for convenience to their schedules.

But you entirely miss the point.. The Texas grid (with what 2% EV adoption?) is already overburdened.

And when more and more EVs are added to the grid

1) your cost per kW will increase (basic supply and demand) for your car and other everyday uses

2) more and more people will be charging "off peak" to the point there is no more off peak. In the ideal cost-saving world you describe, cars will be charged by night, and the rest of civilization powered by day.

3) As adoption increases and infrastructure lags behind, prepare for regular rolling brownouts or worse, especially in extreme cold or hot weather

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars

So if it costs $16 vs $10 (or whatever "nominal" fill up amount) plenty of people would for convenience to their schedules.

But you entirely miss the point.. The Texas grid (with what 2% EV adoption?) is already overburdened.

And when more and more EVs are added to the grid

1) your cost per kW will increase (basic supply and demand) for your car and other everyday uses

2) more and more people will be charging "off peak" to the point there is no more off peak. In the ideal cost-saving world you describe, cars will be charged by night, and the rest of civilization by day.

3) As adoption increases and infrastructure lags behind, prepare for regular rolling brownouts or worse, especially in extreme cold or hot weather

Cheap electricity is going away very soon, as more people switch to EV's government will lose gas tax, that will have to be made up from some source add to that the trillions that will have to be spent to increase grid capacity supply and demand is going to be a real bitch.

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You must not understand, Tesla has its own power grid. It's and "Energy Company" that just so happens to make electric cars.

For public Superchargers, sure. But in residences, private business or elsewhere, no. And whatever it has rolled out is in its *very* prototypical infancy and not anywhere near scalable at the rate EV adoption is being pushed.. and not applicable (yet?... li$cen$ing?) to other manufacturer's vehicles

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars

So if it costs $16 vs $10 (or whatever "nominal" fill up amount) plenty of people would for convenience to their schedules.

But you entirely miss the point.. The Texas grid (with what 2% EV adoption?) is already overburdened.

And when more and more EVs are added to the grid

1) your cost per kW will increase (basic supply and demand) for your car and other everyday uses

2) more and more people will be charging "off peak" to the point there is no more off peak. In the ideal cost-saving world you describe, cars will be charged by night, and the rest of civilization powered by day.

3) As adoption increases and infrastructure lags behind, prepare for regular rolling brownouts or worse, especially in extreme cold or hot weather

Oh I completely understand. I've brought this up many times with regard to California already banning small ICE engines. They do brown and black outs as is, and when their "EV sales law" kicks in in 2035 idk what the heck they're going to do. I was simply stating that in terms of saving money, charging at night makes more sense. My power company even offers an incentive to charge at off-peak times (which I understand will go away as more EV's are sold, but still).

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

Cheap electricity is going away very soon, as more people switch to EV's government will lose gas tax, that will have to be made up from some source add to that the trillions that will have to be spent to increase grid capacity supply and demand is going to be a real bitch.

Agree, however EV registration is higher than normal cars. Here in NC, EV's are hit with a $130 fee to make up for the gas tax. In some states I've seen that as high as $300.

[chad86tsi]

charging off peak = no solar watts = not green. In many places that means nearly 100% carbon supply.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by Conissah

Oh I completely understand. I've brought this up many times with regard to California already banning small ICE engines. They do brown and black outs as is, and when their "EV sales law" kicks in in 2035 idk what the heck they're going to do. I was simply stating that in terms of saving money, charging at night makes more sense. My power company even offers an incentive to charge at off-peak times (which I understand will go away as more EV's are sold, but still).



Agree, however EV registration is higher than normal cars. Here in NC, EV's are hit with a $130 fee to make up for the gas tax. In some states I've seen that as high as $300.

Most of Canada has much lower annual registration for EV's and Ontario just dropped all private vehicle registration fees. I don't think a $300 registration fee will come close to off setting lost gas tax and infrastructure upgrades that are coming. One way or another government will get paid and they will come up with a way to get your money.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

charging off peak = no solar watts = not green. In many places that means nearly 100% carbon supply.

There's hydroelectric, geothermal, tidal, wind, biomass. Gas turbine burning natural gas transmitting to EV is still more efficient than an ICE engine car, so there's that too. If you don't privatize your grid and shut if off so you can't exchange energy as necessary with nearby states/grids, you don't run into the flexibility issues that Texas has run into...but hey, they do their own thing.

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

charging off peak = no solar watts = not green. In many places that means nearly 100% carbon supply.

I've understood the following:

Charging off peak = your solar goes back out into the grid when it's needed.

If you have net metering, it's greener to provide solar to the grid at peak and charge off peak.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

Cheap electricity is going away very soon, as more people switch to EV's government will lose gas tax, that will have to be made up from some source add to that the trillions that will have to be spent to increase grid capacity supply and demand is going to be a real bitch.

Bingo bongo

[x622]

Originally Posted by RM7

There's hydroelectric, geothermal, tidal, wind, biomass. Gas turbine burning natural gas transmitting to EV is still more efficient than an ICE engine car, so there's that too. If you don't privatize your grid and shut if off so you can't exchange energy as necessary with nearby states/grids, you don't run into the flexibility issues that Texas has run into...but hey, they do their own thing.

How exactly do you figure natural gas generation plants and transmitting to an EV as more efficient than an ICE car?

Here's the process;

Natural gas is shipped and harvested usually by pipeline or ICE truck to a generation plant's storage tanks
These storage tanks are pumped into the turbines which spin up/down depending on demand (which can be tracked by watching the frequency rise and decline from 60hz) which then go into GSU transformers from 161-500kv, which the latter goes to a large substation which has 1-2 stepdowns into 12.5kv which goes to your neighborhood which gets broken down into 480v which then goes into a small padmount transformer in your neighborhood which steps that down and gives you 208-220v single phase which you then have going into your panel which feeds the car. Each of these step ups and downs produce heat, which is energy loss.

Texas has a deregulated energy grid, which doesn't mean what you think it means or what the media has told you it meant. Texas got wrecked during the ice storm because the grid is not designed to handle that temperature, just like the energy grid in say Canada or the Northern States isn't designed for the heat that Texas sees.
For example; Transformers are rated in something called ONAN or ONAF which is either a 55 degree Celsius temperature rise over ambient without fan cooling, or supplemental fan cooling with a 55-65 degree Celsius temp rise. Put a transformer with inadequate cooling or too much load and watch it pop. The breakers are are another component. These are not the little breakers like are in your panel box outside your house, but large high voltage fuses as thick as your arm, or even bigger spikey looking balls that are meant to save the grid's bacon in the event of a surge or lightening strike.

Right now, Texas and believe it or not, every other state is getting wrecked because the EPA and Federal government is demanding they swap their carbon baseload (read Coal/Natural gas) to build out renewables with substantial subsidies. Many generating and Peaker plants are offline because the government decrees it. Solar and Wind don't really generate that much baseload, and at best contribute an average of 30% of their nameplate capacity to the grid, and what you're seeing right now is what happens when natural gas reaches new all time highs with a completely idiotic energy policy.

The correct answer is to have a diversified energy mix, with nuclear, hydro, wind and solar if individuals can afford it. Each state is having their economies distorted by the federal governments mandates, and it's just a small taste of what Germany and the EU is going through.

Over there they have it even worse because;

They shut down all their nuclear power plants and never approved to build newer generation plants
They shut off or are converting all of their coal plants to natural gas
They built nordstream 2 only to immediately kill it
They sanctioned Russia which provides their natural gas

It can get like that hear if we don't have rational energy policies and this insane push for EV's everywhere is only going to exacerbate the issue. Please educate yourself.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by x622

How exactly do you figure natural gas generation plants and transmitting to an EV as more efficient than an ICE car?

Here's the process;

Natural gas is shipped and harvested usually by pipeline or ICE truck to a generation plant's storage tanks
These storage tanks are pumped into the turbines which spin up/down depending on demand (which can be tracked by watching the frequency rise and decline from 60hz) which then go into GSU transformers from 161-500kv, which the latter goes to a large substation which has 1-2 stepdowns into 12.5kv which goes to your neighborhood which gets broken down into 480v which then goes into a small padmount transformer in your neighborhood which steps that down and gives you 208-220v single phase which you then have going into your panel which feeds the car. Each of these step ups and downs produce heat, which is energy loss.

Texas has a deregulated energy grid, which doesn't mean what you think it means or what the media has told you it meant. Texas got wrecked during the ice storm because the grid is not designed to handle that temperature, just like the energy grid in say Canada or the Northern States isn't designed for the heat that Texas sees.
For example; Transformers are rated in something called ONAN or ONAF which is either a 55 degree Celsius temperature rise over ambient without fan cooling, or supplemental fan cooling with a 55-65 degree Celsius temp rise. Put a transformer with inadequate cooling or too much load and watch it pop. The breakers are are another component. These are not the little breakers like are in your panel box outside your house, but large high voltage fuses as thick as your arm, or even bigger spikey looking balls that are meant to save the grid's bacon in the event of a surge or lightening strike.

Right now, Texas and believe it or not, every other state is getting wrecked because the EPA and Federal government is demanding they swap their carbon baseload (read Coal/Natural gas) to build out renewables with substantial subsidies. Many generating and Peaker plants are offline because the government decrees it. Solar and Wind don't really generate that much baseload, and at best contribute an average of 30% of their nameplate capacity to the grid, and what you're seeing right now is what happens when natural gas reaches new all time highs with a completely idiotic energy policy.

The correct answer is to have a diversified energy mix, with nuclear, hydro, wind and solar if individuals can afford it. Each state is having their economies distorted by the federal governments mandates, and it's just a small taste of what Germany and the EU is going through.

Over there they have it even worse because;

They shut down all their nuclear power plants and never approved to build newer generation plants
They shut off or are converting all of their coal plants to natural gas
They built nordstream 2 only to immediately kill it
They sanctioned Russia which provides their natural gas

It can get like that hear if we don't have rational energy policies and this insane push for EV's everywhere is only going to exacerbate the issue. Please educate yourself.

Bravo

[RM7]

Originally Posted by x622

How exactly do you figure natural gas generation plants and transmitting to an EV as more efficient than an ICE car?

Here's the process;

Natural gas is shipped and harvested usually by pipeline or ICE truck to a generation plant's storage tanks
These storage tanks are pumped into the turbines which spin up/down depending on demand (which can be tracked by watching the frequency rise and decline from 60hz) which then go into GSU transformers from 161-500kv, which the latter goes to a large substation which has 1-2 stepdowns into 12.5kv which goes to your neighborhood which gets broken down into 480v which then goes into a small padmount transformer in your neighborhood which steps that down and gives you 208-220v single phase which you then have going into your panel which feeds the car. Each of these step ups and downs produce heat, which is energy loss.

Yes, and modern installations are around 65% efficient, which is far more efficient than trucking gas all over the place to every little corner gas station, having to have tanks to store it in, the cost to build those tanks, tankers, stations, etc., and then the ICE engine efficiency. You talk to me about heat and I'm talking to you about something that consumes far more energy in it's process. It ends up far less efficient than beaming the energy out over lines and using it in an electric car. It may not be able to handle the demand of every car in existence being an EV, but it's more efficient to do it that way.

But yes, the answer is diversified. The natural gas turbines are very scalable and easy (relatively) to "add". I was mainly addressing before the idea that solar isn't the only game going.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by RM7

There's hydroelectric, geothermal, tidal, wind, biomass.

How much, where, and when?

Originally Posted by RM7

Gas turbine burning natural gas transmitting to EV is still more efficient than an ICE engine car, so there's that too.

Speaking in absolutes?

Depends on the cars compared. An average of all market EV charged with average % of hydrocarbon electricity overages out to CO2-per mile similar to or worse than a Prius and a slew of other similar hybrid ICE's. the NEW hummer EV is worse than a straight ICE Malibu with a 60% carbon electrical supply, which is a super generous figure for the Hummer comparison if it's charging at night when off peak power is cheapest (and when most EV's are charged). Looking at the power mix in California last night and this morning, from midnight to 6AM the grid was averaging 65-70% carbon, even with all that nuclear, geothermal, hydro, batteries, wind, and solar in their portfolio. many areas are worse.

Originally Posted by RM7

If you don't privatize your grid and shut if off so you can't exchange energy as necessary with nearby states/grids, you don't run into the flexibility issues that Texas has run into...but hey, they do their own thing.

Imported energy helps stabilize the grid, but doesn't' solve the carbon problem. Doesn't matter how many interconnects one has, solar doesn't work when it's dark, and Wind doesn't work when it's not windy. Green power is great, when it's available.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by RM7

Yes, and modern installations are around 65% efficient,

Few installations are modern, and this figure is when run at full throttle only. Figure 40-45% on average, and even less when not at full throttle.

[x622]

Originally Posted by RM7

Yes, and modern installations are around 65% efficient, which is far more efficient than trucking gas all over the place to every little corner gas station, having to have tanks to store it in, the cost to build those tanks, tankers, stations, etc., and then the ICE engine efficiency. You talk to me about heat and I'm talking to you about something that consumes far more energy in it's process. It ends up far less efficient than beaming the energy out over lines and using it in an electric car. It may not be able to handle the demand of every car in existence being an EV, but it's more efficient to do it that way.

But yes, the answer is diversified. The natural gas turbines are very scalable and easy (relatively) to "add". I was mainly addressing before the idea that solar isn't the only game going.

You think refining and using oil products is a net negative energy process?

Also it's pretty laughable to think that the grid is anywhere close to capable for handling all these higher demand loads in all these homes everywhere without substantial infrastructure deployment and capital expense, which oh by the way takes from the efficiency of EVs.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by ga9213

I've understood the following:

Charging off peak = your solar goes back out into the grid when it's needed.

If you have net metering, it's greener to provide solar to the grid at peak and charge off peak.

Off peak is when it's dark = no solar.

If you have solar and you sell to the grid, you can make a profit.

If you also have an EV and charge at night when it's cheaper to charge (due to off-peak), you are charging with mostly carbon instead of green solar. You aren't getting your green watts back, you are getting someone else's dirty watts.

If you do this willingly and knowingly, you are being far less green for the sake of personal profit.

If you justify this by saying "my solar went into the grid during the peak, so it's good for the grid in the big picture because it still offsets someone else's carbon", that doesn't account for distribution losses, it's still less green. the most green thing to do is to charge with your own solar.

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Off peak is when it's dark = no solar.

If you have solar and you sell to the grid, you can make a profit.

If you also have an EV and charge at night when it's cheaper to charge (due to off-peak), you are charging with mostly carbon instead of green solar. You aren't getting your green watts back, you are getting someone else's dirty watts.

If you do this willingly and knowingly, you are being far less green for the sake of personal profit.

If you justify this by saying "my solar went into the grid during the peak, so it's good for the grid in the big picture because it still offsets someone else's carbon", that doesn't account for distribution losses, it's still less green. the most green thing to do is to charge with your own solar.

All great if you frequent a BMW forum. But what about the person barely getting by, with an undersized / outdated panel that needs a $1K - $2K upgrade before they can even think about charging a $50K car, let alone sell energy back to the grid?

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars

All great if you frequent a BMW forum. But what about the person barely getting by, with an undersized / outdated panel that needs a $1K - $2K upgrade before they can even think about charging a $50K car, let alone sell energy back to the grid?

I think they need to buy better shoes and get back in shape, because in a few years they will be walking, a lot.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

I think they need to buy better shoes and get back in shape, because in a few years they will be walking, a lot.

That really made me laugh :. But in all fairness, poor people and the lower middle class are going to be the ones hit the hardest during this "great transition"