[Rmtt]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

I fixed it for you!


This Vette is truly a performance bargain of the year! Props to GM for building it.

I just hope it doesn't have the build quality or material feel(cheap hard plastics) of a Cobolt.

Dackel

While true they have suffered this issue, they have gotten better each generation.

Plus the previous shortcomings were always easy fixes once you had them "in hand"!

[Rmtt]

Originally Posted by CP911

I agree with you overall, but let's be honest. If you have the extra $40k for the 911 and don't mind blowing it, that is still THE sports car to have. The C8 will be great, however, for those on a smaller budget or even for those people like myself who can afford more, but find there is a point of diminishing returns with cars in general and feel happier with a less expensive car. Hence, why I used to have a 911, but am now more satisfied with my "cheap" M240i.

I could afford the 911 as well....but at that point I look at it like a status symbol. I can see spending the money on a well sorted out sports car, but if I can do it and get the same satisfaction AND keep $40K in my account....I consider it a win. But I'm a cheap bastard.

And I don't buy for a "name". I buy because something gives me joy in driving it. Hell, my current Corvette is beyond my scope as a driver and it's a "lowly" C6 with just a few mods.

[Rmtt]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

I think they were taking about real track racing, in other words, “not straight”.

I know.....I have track raced. But straight racing just has more appeal to me. I guess it was just because I was raised around the drag strip as a teenager and the bug bit me.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So I haven't read everything on the C8, but what is the base car's 0 - 60 time, 3.8 - 4.0 seconds? For under $70K, mid engine, handles like a, well, a Corvette, I'd take it sans traction management system.

Personally, I would want Z51 and the FE4 upgrade. The more sophisticated damper system along with the Performance Traction Management system seems like the special sauce I wouldn't do without. We'll have to see if my opinion changes when pricing is released.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Personally, I would want Z51 and the FE4 upgrade. The more sophisticated damper system along with the Performance Traction Management system seems like the special sauce I wouldn't do without. We'll have to see if my opinion changes when pricing is released.

I love your picks but I'd be worried about the yellow seatbelt getting discoloured/dirty....

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

I love your picks but I'd be worried about the yellow seatbelt getting discoloured/dirty....

I agree. I'm totally not decided on the color scheme I'd pick for the C8. Luckily I'm not ordering anything anytime soon. Still enamored with the silver with silver stripes with black calipers and seatbelts though.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So I haven't read everything on the C8, but what is the base car's 0 - 60 time, 3.8 - 4.0 seconds? For under $70K, mid engine, handles like a, well, a Corvette, I'd take it sans traction management system.

The base C7 Stingray does 0-60 in 3.8s, it’d be hard to imagine the base C8 only matching that number.

I’d expect the base C8 Stingray to come in at around 3.2-3.5 s to 60.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Rmtt

I've always bought a generation behind as I usually end up dumping mod money into them. Have always had a Corvette as a 2nd car as soon as I was financially to do so!

I'm a true believer in 1) never buy a 1st or 2nd year car model and 2) never pay MSRP for a car. So you won't see me shopping for a C8 for at least another 2-3 years.

I'm also a true believer in NEVER buying the lowest base trim, as if you're going to do that, you might as well save a few bucks and buy a Hyundai Accent base model because they all drive and feel the same. So either way, I'm waiting for the "wide body" models to come out and all the typical GM beta tester problems to be worked out before I even take a sniff.

The C7 is the first Corvette in the garage, as I've NEVER bought American cars until the Corvette. Not for lack of trying, since the latest generation of Mustangs and Camaros certainly tick every box off my checklist. Plus I'm just not your typical Corvette owner.

What I will say though, is I thought even the C7 was ground breaking, as it offered supercar like performance with a tolerable interior for dirt cheap price. The C7 Grand Sport lapped Laguna Seca faster than just about anything under the sun. All except the Ford Shelby GT 350R, 10 cars on each side of this list: https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna-seca-post-1988 are all over $100K. Heck it was 2 full seconds faster than the M4 GT4, and that's a $140K car when all said and done. Really the "mid engine" C8 is but an evolutionary step forward for Corvette, as prior generation Corvettes have always offered way more performance than the dollar value would suggest. The ONLY ground breaking part of C8 is by moving the engine behind the driver, they can finally claim the acceleration in a straight-line advantage too (for all of the C7's test glories, no C7 can beat a good Porsche in a drag race straight up except the ZR1).

But that's neither here nor there, C7 is old news. Mid engine C8 IS breaking the mold. Instead of the same old formula, different length sausage, they bucked 50+ year of history and decided to upend the industry, which is way more than what I can say for BMW in the last 15 years. It's gotten stale. Reactionary. Revenue and marketshare driven rather than innovation driven. Heck even Porsche has gotten 30,000 advanced deposit for a car they haven't even made (Taycan production is expected to be 40,000 for 2020, they've already sold 30,000+ without the factory churning out a production car).

Back to my original point. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN BMW?

Anyway, what GM did with the C7 to get the cost and price way down in comparison to the rest of their competitive field, you can and probably will see in the C8 as well.

1) Parts bin sharing. The LT1 is used ubiquitously across their entire vehicle line-up, and I fully expect the LT2 to be slotted in some of their highest selling trucks and SUVs as well. When you're making 200K of the same engine and primary for your high volume trucks and SUVs, all of a sudden that small block V8 cost far less per unit than your average inline 6 turbo, where it already had a massive advantage in cost in material.

2) Material. SMC (I forgot what the full name is) for body panels not only save weight, but raw material cost AND tooling cost. The primary drawback is time, as you can't stamp out 100 panels in an hour like you can with steel or aluminum. So for a production run of 30,000 a year, a single plant can handle a car who's outer panel is made of plastic/fiberglass composite.

3) Quality. There's just no way around this, but if you don't have to invest up front on making sure that each and every panel fit is within a better and higher tolerance, there's a ton of money to be saved per vehicle in the number of QC rejects and also tool calibration. My 13 year old BMW MZ4 Coupe has much, MUCH better panel gaps and assembly and less creaks and rattles than the 2017 C7 Grand Sport. Sure, it's not perfect everywhere, but the fit and finish is better. Much better.

4) Touch: This is all subjective, but having owned 2 GM products so far, I honestly can say this. It may look decent, it may work decent, but every single touch interface on both the Corvette and the Bolt EV feels...Different. Like how the mode selector wiggles in your hand, or the signal stock sort of feel "loose," or any of the buttons and switch gears kind of rocks a little. All the switches and buttons have a little bit of play in it, like they didn't bother to put in an extra rubber seal to keep it in place. If you're used to upper trim Japanese cars or German luxury, it's a shock to the system to find as many "loose" buttons and knobs. It's just...Different. Everything you touch is different.

5) Experience. This is ALSO subjective. The whole buying experience, service experience, and just overall ownership experience is piss poor in comparison to any of the other major manufacturers. The only one that's worse, and it's significantly worse, that I've experienced, is FCA. FCA ownership experience is by a giant margin the worst in the industry. Even my Hyundai ownership experience was much better by comparison. Just having to walk through the dealership to buy (look it's the 21st century and everyone has access to the internet. Don't try to sell me a car like a slimy sales guy with the stupid quadrant and drag the process out to 7 hours just to get a f**king lease done), to service (actually service has been okay, but it's shocking to me when waiting in the service area to pick up the Corvette after its initial break-in oil change to hear a service writer openly confront another customer about a $10 light bulb. Just weird), to little stuff like the bill due for the lease payment is significantly different from the actual written contract (I had to actually call Ally/GM financial or whoever it was to confirm, as I suspect someone had made a huge mistake, and they weren't shy about admitting that they outsourced it all. If I didn't call and double check, it would have ruined our credit AND had the Bolt repossessed in 3 months).

Which is to say, none of this is going to really dissuade me, because for me, the car's insane level of performance for the dollar just about makes it all worthwhile. And since I do the bulk of my own service, IF I'm willing to overlook the fact that it shares an engine with a truck and feels like you're typing on a cheap keyboard every time you touched a button, that's all fine knowing that I'd be several seconds per lap faster than my buddy in his BMW at the local track without working up a sweat (whereas my MZ4 Coupe and his 340i churns very similar lap times, at least, similar enough where traffic equalizes it).

Speaking of not ever buying a first year car and never paying MSRP, I have made one single exception. I bought the MZ4 Coupe, sight unseen, when they announced it in March of 2006. I put down my deposit for one in April, waited five months to pick it up in September, at MSRP. The one and ONLY first model year car I've ever bought, the first and only car I've ever paid MSRP (heck the one and ONLY car I've ever paid more than INVOICE for). Probably why it's still in the garage after 13 years, as I've had to justify paying MSRP for it.

[See5]

Originally Posted by eluded

Old men don't drive sticks. Nice car if a little late. Now let's see all electric car that puts Tesla in its place ? Nope.

It's the old guys that are complaining about the lack of manual more than anyone else.

[Sedoy]

Sad but true... also Camaro's beat M's on the track those days... WTF BMW?

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Good point and I'll add... brought the first extended-range electric car to the market (Volt) and delivered the first long-range, 238-mile EV to the market (Bolt). BMW's first EV.. 80 miles; BMW's first extended-range EV... 120 miles (if no hills). BMW had barely finished paying off EPA fines when GM introduced the Volt

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I'm a true believer in 1) never buy a 1st or 2nd year car model and 2) never pay MSRP for a car. So you won't see me shopping for a C8 for at least another 2-3 years.

I'm also a true believer in NEVER buying the lowest base trim, as if you're going to do that, you might as well save a few bucks and buy a Hyundai Accent base model because they all drive and feel the same. So either way, I'm waiting for the "wide body" models to come out and all the typical GM beta tester problems to be worked out before I even take a sniff.

The C7 is the first Corvette in the garage, as I've NEVER bought American cars until the Corvette. Not for lack of trying, since the latest generation of Mustangs and Camaros certainly tick every box off my checklist. Plus I'm just not your typical Corvette owner.

What I will say though, is I thought even the C7 was ground breaking, as it offered supercar like performance with a tolerable interior for dirt cheap price. The C7 Grand Sport lapped Laguna Seca faster than just about anything under the sun. All except the Ford Shelby GT 350R, 10 cars on each side of this list: https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna-seca-post-1988 are all over $100K. Heck it was 2 full seconds faster than the M4 GT4, and that's a $140K car when all said and done. Really the "mid engine" C8 is but an evolutionary step forward for Corvette, as prior generation Corvettes have always offered way more performance than the dollar value would suggest. The ONLY ground breaking part of C8 is by moving the engine behind the driver, they can finally claim the acceleration in a straight-line advantage too (for all of the C7's test glories, no C7 can beat a good Porsche in a drag race straight up except the ZR1).

But that's neither here nor there, C7 is old news. Mid engine C8 IS breaking the mold. Instead of the same old formula, different length sausage, they bucked 50+ year of history and decided to upend the industry, which is way more than what I can say for BMW in the last 15 years. It's gotten stale. Reactionary. Revenue and marketshare driven rather than innovation driven. Heck even Porsche has gotten 30,000 advanced deposit for a car they haven't even made (Taycan production is expected to be 40,000 for 2020, they've already sold 30,000+ without the factory churning out a production car).

Back to my original point. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN BMW?

Anyway, what GM did with the C7 to get the cost and price way down in comparison to the rest of their competitive field, you can and probably will see in the C8 as well.

1) Parts bin sharing. The LT1 is used ubiquitously across their entire vehicle line-up, and I fully expect the LT2 to be slotted in some of their highest selling trucks and SUVs as well. When you're making 200K of the same engine and primary for your high volume trucks and SUVs, all of a sudden that small block V8 cost far less per unit than your average inline 6 turbo, where it already had a massive advantage in cost in material.

2) Material. SMC (I forgot what the full name is) for body panels not only save weight, but raw material cost AND tooling cost. The primary drawback is time, as you can't stamp out 100 panels in an hour like you can with steel or aluminum. So for a production run of 30,000 a year, a single plant can handle a car who's outer panel is made of plastic/fiberglass composite.

3) Quality. There's just no way around this, but if you don't have to invest up front on making sure that each and every panel fit is within a better and higher tolerance, there's a ton of money to be saved per vehicle in the number of QC rejects and also tool calibration. My 13 year old BMW MZ4 Coupe has much, MUCH better panel gaps and assembly and less creaks and rattles than the 2017 C7 Grand Sport. Sure, it's not perfect everywhere, but the fit and finish is better. Much better.

4) Touch: This is all subjective, but having owned 2 GM products so far, I honestly can say this. It may look decent, it may work decent, but every single touch interface on both the Corvette and the Bolt EV feels...Different. Like how the mode selector wiggles in your hand, or the signal stock sort of feel "loose," or any of the buttons and switch gears kind of rocks a little. All the switches and buttons have a little bit of play in it, like they didn't bother to put in an extra rubber seal to keep it in place. If you're used to upper trim Japanese cars or German luxury, it's a shock to the system to find as many "loose" buttons and knobs. It's just...Different. Everything you touch is different.

5) Experience. This is ALSO subjective. The whole buying experience, service experience, and just overall ownership experience is piss poor in comparison to any of the other major manufacturers. The only one that's worse, and it's significantly worse, that I've experienced, is FCA. FCA ownership experience is by a giant margin the worst in the industry. Even my Hyundai ownership experience was much better by comparison. Just having to walk through the dealership to buy (look it's the 21st century and everyone has access to the internet. Don't try to sell me a car like a slimy sales guy with the stupid quadrant and drag the process out to 7 hours just to get a f**king lease done), to service (actually service has been okay, but it's shocking to me when waiting in the service area to pick up the Corvette after its initial break-in oil change to hear a service writer openly confront another customer about a $10 light bulb. Just weird), to little stuff like the bill due for the lease payment is significantly different from the actual written contract (I had to actually call Ally/GM financial or whoever it was to confirm, as I suspect someone had made a huge mistake, and they weren't shy about admitting that they outsourced it all. If I didn't call and double check, it would have ruined our credit AND had the Bolt repossessed in 3 months).

Which is to say, none of this is going to really dissuade me, because for me, the car's insane level of performance for the dollar just about makes it all worthwhile. And since I do the bulk of my own service, IF I'm willing to overlook the fact that it shares an engine with a truck and feels like you're typing on a cheap keyboard every time you touched a button, that's all fine knowing that I'd be several seconds per lap faster than my buddy in his BMW at the local track without working up a sweat (whereas my MZ4 Coupe and his 340i churns very similar lap times, at least, similar enough where traffic equalizes it).

Speaking of not ever buying a first year car and never paying MSRP, I have made one single exception. I bought the MZ4 Coupe, sight unseen, when they announced it in March of 2006. I put down my deposit for one in April, waited five months to pick it up in September, at MSRP. The one and ONLY first model year car I've ever bought, the first and only car I've ever paid MSRP (heck the one and ONLY car I've ever paid more than INVOICE for). Probably why it's still in the garage after 13 years, as I've had to justify paying MSRP for it.

I guess all I can say is I have to see one and drive one myself to know for sure. As past Corvette, there are too many intangible things that irritate me. I would settle for a Carrera S even with lesser performance if it pleases me better.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by pz619

Obviously I haven’t driven the new C8 or the new Porsche, but it’ll be interesting to see the reviews and comparisons. On paper, it looks like a tough sell. But I get what you are saying. I have a M2C which is roughly the same price as a ZL1. On paper that car is better, but clearly I voted differently with my wallet. Definitely same could apply to the C8 vs 911. Either way, excited to see and try.

Its not just about performance per dollar. There are obviously many other factors that go into someone purchasing a vehicle. Brand name and perceived/actual quality are probably the biggest factor. A timex watch will tell you the time the same as a Rolex, but the Rolex certainly makes a different statement on your wrist.

[Red Bread]

No chance a Rolex keeps as good a time as a Timex.

However, C&D tested a 992 S at 0-60 in 3.0s and an 11.3s 1/4. Heady stuff.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by eluded

Old men don't drive sticks. Nice car if a little late. Now let's see all electric car that puts Tesla in its place ? Nope.

I am 72 and my M4 is 6MT

[WestRace]

I've been called a Corvette hater, but I am sure there are a lot of M4/911 drivers who obviously did not choose the Corvette even with higher performance. Are those drivers Corvette haters too?

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by WestRace

I guess all I can say is I have to see one and drive one myself to know for sure. As past Corvette, there are too many intangible things that irritate me. I would settle for a Carrera S even with lesser performance if it pleases me better.

I know, and you totally should. Never listen to the hype and never go by what the media tells you. I used to belong to the Motor Press Guild, and while they'er all talented writers, I can't confirm that they're all talented drivers and evaluators.

I recall the LAST Motor Press Guild hosted event, there were a few of the new YouTube media personalities there, and I had the opportunity to ride with a few (as I am fond to do...You have to experience and evaluate from both the driver's side AND passenger's side IMO). I would say most of the newer generation journalists have no clue, and I wouldn't place them in the typical beginner's class in most HPDE organizations. But they sure do spout a good talking game.

Of course, at the same event I also rode with a few journalists that truly was inspiring. People who have had real racing careers and know what they're talking about. But it highlights how most of modern day media is just a bunch of parrots repeating what others have said and there's really only a few real voices that accurately assesses a car's true driving dynamics.

And believe you me. I would never have guessed myself as someone who would buy American cars, much less a Chevy (not after my FCA disaster, anyway). I got to sit in and experience a C7 Grand Sport at Laguna Seca and that changed my mind. Even now, when all the little things that would irk me, every time I fire up the Grand Sport, all that goes away when you try to push the performance envelope. It is mind boggling and makes you forget that it is a Chevrolet after all, especially walking away from a few rental Chevys and you think to yourself, did the same company REALLY produce both of these cars?!

To me, and I have to put this caveat out there. If I don't track the car, I wouldn't stand for all the little nit-picky stuff. All the interior buttons. The ownership experience. The little sh*t that break that shouldn't. All the interface issues and touch and operation and feel that makes the whole package, if I don't track the car, I would not buy the C7 Grand Sport. I just wouldn't. And knowing what I know now with the C7, if I don't track the car, I wouldn't give the C8 another thought either. It's not worth the constant snickers about mid-life crises and gold chains and hick jokes (after all, I don't live in an area where Corvettes are prevalent, even though my neighborhood I often see far more expensive cars. My neighbor drives an Audi Q8 AND a Maserati daily for elf sake).

Drive one every day, and you see why it's so cheap. Drive one angry at a track, and you see why the concept is so endearing. Forget the cost. It is one of the best performance cars you can buy, period. Short of über exotics there's not many cars like this.

And the C8 is all that taken up to 11.

[pz619]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Its not just about performance per dollar. There are obviously many other factors that go into someone purchasing a vehicle. Brand name and perceived/actual quality are probably the biggest factor. A timex watch will tell you the time the same as a Rolex, but the Rolex certainly makes a different statement on your wrist.

Yeah, but I'm the kind of person who couldn't care less about Rolex. To me, there is no way a rolex is ever worth it. But I'm also in no way a watch enthusiast. Apple watch is about a expensive as I'll ever go, and I'm in it for the features. I get what you are saying though and you definitely have a point with quality/feel. But unless the corvette is pure garbage in the fit and finish department, other brands have quite a bit of ground to make up.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by pz619

I get what you are saying though and you definitely have a point with quality/feel. But unless the corvette is pure garbage in the fit and finish department, other brands have quite a bit of ground to make up.

You'd be surprised what you'd find on new 2019 C7s in dealer stock now!

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...corvettes.html

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by WestRace

I've been called a Corvette hater, but I am sure there are a lot of M4/911 drivers who obviously did not choose the Corvette even with higher performance. Are those drivers Corvette haters too?

Why would GT shoppers cross shop sports cars? Both are not direct C7 or C8 competitors.

The C8 does bring up some interesting issues for the current 718 however.

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Why would GT shoppers cross shop sports cars? Both are not direct C7 or C8 competitors.

The C8 does bring up some interesting issues for the current 718 however.

I agree the C8 will offer some attractive alternatives to the traditional M2/M4/911 typical drivers. As I said, I will need to see one and drive one to form my own opinions.

I wouldn't say the 911 or M2 are GT cars even if they have 2+2 seat, but anyway, different people will have different opinions.

[alex2364]

Now another reason for BMW drivers to jump ship. If you want a retractable hardtop convertible, the C8 will have it!

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/07/30/...oof-spy-photos

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The C8 does bring up some interesting issues for the current 718 however.

definitely does. will be interesting to see how many jump ship. I think a lot of the folks that buy the cayman/boxster aren't too interested in straight line performance though. similar to how a BRZ is the same price as v6 Camaro with double the torque.

For some it may just boil down to the service department / dealership experience when they get their oil changed. There's a big difference between the staff and clientele at a GM dealer vs Porsche dealer.