[GoingTooFast]

From where I'm standing... being a former Cayman owner and a current 1M owner after the Porsche... I clearly see this Toyobaru as the best combination between the Cayman and the 1M strengths with none of their weaknesses including the UNMATCHED advantage of the price tag which makes it available for almost everyone who really cares about sports car.

The Toyobaru is a cornerstone for the automotive industry and I can't rave enough about this car really.

And, I just can't say it's perfect because of two reasons:

1. The lack of 4 real seats, not so important - this is a pure sports car after all;
   
2. The lack of a torquier engine and this has been my main point.

I want this car to be perfect... and it's only some 37 to 74 pound-foot away.

[ptack]

That reads like it was written by the Toyota marketing department. The car compares great to a Cayman - unless you drive the Cayman seriously and put it's power to work.

A comparison with cars in the same price range (US) would be a more accurate idea of their value (in stock form). They may be the best deal going - or not.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by ptack

That reads like it was written by the Toyota marketing department. The car compares great to a Cayman - unless you drive the Cayman seriously and put it's power to work.

Despite the 65 horse-power difference to the Toyobaru, the base Cayman is not about power, you have to go at least to a Cayman S to start challenging its chassis.

Like in the 1M vs Cayman R duel, it's not the power of the (significantly cheaper) 1M that dictates what is the best driver's car.

Of course that I would like the Toyobaru to be slightly faster but I can trade sheer speed for driving fun any day... 305 hp vs 200 hp (see minute 6:34):

[GoingTooFast]

Please, seat inside the Toyobaru and have a new look at the world!

[ptack]

Now that's a good comparison. Essentially, a skilled driver will get more out of a Mustang, but average drivers will probably do better with the BRZ. The big thing I wonder about is whether 20-something male buyers will go for the driver's-car experience over brute strength bragging rights. Tuning demands for the toyburu will be immediate and intense.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by ptack

Now that's a good comparison. Essentially, a skilled driver will get more out of a Mustang, but average drivers will probably do better with the BRZ. The big thing I wonder about is whether 20-something male buyers will go for the driver's-car experience over brute strength bragging rights. Tuning demands for the toyburu will be immediate and intense.

As I said, the Toyobaru matches a base Cayman both for the handling characteristics and the lack of engine torque. But, because the tyres are way thinner, the weight lower and it's a FR layout the Toyobaru is more fun, no doubt.

Even EVO in their best Toyobaru comparo to date while testing with the vastly inferior automatic version (the wheel torque is even lower) ends up saying exactly that without even be aware of it:

The great shame of all this is that the rest of the car is a class act. The steering is direct, quick-witted and very accurate, the brakes have plenty of bite and progression and the damping strikes a sweet balance between tautness and pliancy for a harmonious relationship with road surface. It's strong grip on dry roads actually means you can carry terrific momentum through the corners without drawing attention to yourself. Conversely you really have to throw it at a bend to achieve a slide worthy of a cornering shot, which is less than subtle and rather defeats the promise of this being a car to enjoy at less than banzai speed.

This clearly is Cayman territory. Period. I know, I've been there...

[GoingTooFast]

Power comes from a supercharged 2.0-liter four-cylinder engine that has been equipped with Cosworth pistons and connecting rods as well as a sports exhaust system. This enables the mill to produce 241 PS (177 kW / 238 hp) and 274 Nm (202 lb-ft) of torque. It is connected to a six-speed manual transmission which enables the model to hit a top speed of 240 km/h (149 mph).

The benchmark 0 – 100 km/h sprint time is unknown at this stage, but expect it to be considerably faster than the standard MX-5′s time of 7.6 seconds.

MX-5 Yusho production will be limited to 100 units and only for the German market

[GoingTooFast]

It takes ten minutes in the Impreza Turbo to highlight the BRZ's shortcomings.

Well, while the EVO comparison between the Toyobaru and Subaru Impreza (GC8) is important to highlight the Toyobaru's ONLY shortcoming - its engine lack of low- and mid-range torque - it misses grossly at the same time to highlight the biggest obvious difference between the two. And that's how we know it's a biased review from the get-go (shame on you EVO):

I'm not saying the Impreza is perfect. It doesn't have the BRZ's tight, direct feel through the steering and its brakes are no more than adequate for the task of containing its performance. Perhaps the biggest difference is that where the BRZ feels bespoke like a small two-plus-not much seater should, the Impreza is very obviously derived from more humble stock.

This is VERY poor quality reviewing at best to describe the difference between the Toyobaru and Subaru Impreza (GC8). So, in order for you to better understand what really is going on here let's read a proper in depth comparison between the two cars based on two high quality articles about the handling of each one:


Standard WRX Handling

Grip, grip and more grip - that's what enables the Subaru Impreza WRX to blast its way from corner to corner with enough speed to gobsmack its rivals. Its AWD chassis is s-o stable, even the most mundane driver can drive fast without teetering on the edge of death. Get over the user-friendliness of the chassis, though, and you'll realise the WRX doesn't offer a lot of handling finesse; it is nowhere near as finely balanced as, say, a Peugeot 206 GTi or Mazda MX-5 (Miata).

Like any major car manufacturer, Subaru has a responsibility to ensure the vehicles it produces can be driven safely in all conditions by the layperson. Understeer (where the front of the car runs wide of the angle being steered) is regarded as a safer and easier handling characteristic to manage than oversteer (where the rear of the car steps outward from the direction being steered). The average driver will instinctively hit the brakes during any kind of 'moment' - during an understeer motion this will cause the car to rapidly slow and, depending on conditions, front-end grip will soon be regained. In contrast, if a driver hit the brakes during an oversteer motion the chassis is further destabilised - the already limited rear-end grip is reduced, creating a possibility of spinning out of control.

Not surprisingly, Subaru engineers have erred on the side of understeer with the WRX chassis - but to what degree and at what stage of cornering? After racking up a few kilometres in the AutoSpeed MY94 WRX (and after owning the similar-handling Liberty RS turbo) we've taken some careful notes on the standard handling...

At the very first stage of a corner - turn-in - the WRX chassis can understeer quite badly. If you go in too fast or are ham-fisted with the steering input, the car will plough understeer and you'll run wide of the corner apex. In some instances, a slight throttle lift-off - or perhaps a gentle dab on the brake - is required during the early stages of turn-in. This serves to transfer weight forwards, thereby improving front-end grip.

Assuming you've entered a corner with a fairly neutral balance, the chassis will typically remain secure. Once again, however, understeer can appear if you continue toward the apex with too much power or you're too ragged with steering inputs. Assuming you're carrying more than about 3500 rpm through the corner (so the engine is developing enough torque to allow chassis balance to be altered), the WRX's chassis attitude is reasonably throttle-controllable.

A balanced car - where you're maintaining just the right amount of throttle to hold the desired line and handling attitude through a corner - is the aim. In some instances, though, you may need to alter the car's attitude mid-corner - easing off the throttle or easing on the brake pedal helps the front-end 'tuck in' and can encourage an oversteer motion. This kind of throttle and brake modulation is particularly useful in tight, relatively low-speed corners where the WRX tends to overload its outside front tyre and hunt for front-end grip. This photo clearly illustrates the massive lateral load applied to the outside front tyre during tight corners.

It's the exit of the corner where the standard WRX performs at its finest - assuming you've set up the right exit line. If you've created a cornering line that allows a good exit, the WRX will accept early application of full throttle and you'll be accelerated to the next corner without wheelspin or any need for steering corrections. This is where the Super Subie really leaves its two-wheel-drive rivals in its wake.

If, however, if you accelerate aggressively while the front wheels are still coping with lots of cornering forces you will encourage power understeer. Power understeer is caused by weight transfer away from the front wheels during acceleration - less weight over the loaded tyres means less grip. Once the WRX starts power understeering the only way to stop it is to unwind some steering lock and/or ease off the accelerator - both measures simply ease the load on the front tyres. Note, however, you can apply power while the front tyres are laterally loaded so long as you're very gentle - you should ease the throttle open as more front-end grip becomes available throughout the stages of the corner.

The basic rule of thumb for the standard WRX is as for most constant four-wheel drive cars: a relatively slow turn-in, balance the car at the mid-point on the throttle, then hammer it as early as possible on the way out. Because of the turbo lag that you'll get when moving on and off the throttle, it's normal to be on the power a touch before the apex - by the time torque builds you'll be past it and blasting out with that all-paw traction.

Subaru BRZ Handling

As you slide down into the low sitting coupe there are NO feelings of familiarity from ANY Subaru of the past. Your body slides into the most supportive, heavily bolstered seats of any Subaru I can ever remember.

(...)

Undoubtedly the Miata was the king for stock shortest shifter throw but those days are over! The only effort needed to shift this car is with your wrist.

(...)

As I pull out of the parking space the first thing I notice is I am NOT turning the steering wheel like a mass transit bus driver. Instead my left hand drops from the 9 o clock position to the 6 o clock position and I am reminded of an 05 STI with a Quik Rack ! The 13:1 rack is electronic and the steering feel is medium weight. Imagine Miata meets Lotus Elise, meets Porsche 911!

(...)

First I started turning the steering wheel to see how responsive it is. ITS RESPONSIVE ! Its amazing what happens when you remove front axles and a differential. Immediately you notice the absence of body roll. Your brain says..” how can this be?”. Then the advertised lower CG than a Ferrari 458 comes to mind and you look for the closest exit ramp.

Turn in is cerebral like. NO REALLY…..its unlike ANY Subaru I have ever driven. That includes the GC8 STI Type RA with factory goodies etc. Mind you my wife and I met at a Subaru dealer and we have owned 13 Subaru’s since 2000. The list includes 04 STI, 06 Legacy Spec-B, 2001 2.5Rs, 2011 WRX and many more. NONE were left stock and ALL had extensive suspension and brake work. ALL were tracked at some point in time. I only say this to validate my opinion of the STOCK steering in the BRZ.

Simply put: Subaru hit this out of the park! The steering is this car means you can put this car EXACTLY where you want it.

Borrowing from the multi link rear suspension of the previous and current generation Impreza and WRX platforms the rear suspension I am told has various pillow ball mounts for a more “positive handling car”.
14mm rear sway bar, reverse front WRX control arms, no pitch stop mount and motor mounts that are seemingly WRX like…….make up the short list of distinctive differences this car has underneath.
No front eccentric bolts means stock class auto-crossers have their work cut out for them. But that’s just it….this car STOCK on a twisty road will RUN AWAY from a stage 2 STi. How you might ask?

(...)

The BRZ turns like the best of them. I have driven a lot of cars over the years and by default instructed a lot of students (which means you have to take them for 3 laps in their car before you turn it over to them) in all of the latest and greatest. This car will dominate at autocrossing. Track day drivers will love it because unlike the AWD platform of the WRX and STI this car has CRISP turn in, allows you to get on the gas BEFORE the apex and tracks out with an amazing amount of confidence. AGAIN……all from a stock car.

Less weight means less to stop. The brake pedal is hard and feels like an EVO with stainless steel lines ! No more mushy pedal even after you do braided lines and good fluid. Under hard braking the car is planted. The first thing you think is….”why would you get a big brake kit?”. Front rotors are same as 2011 WRX. Rear brakes also 2011 WRX-like. This car stops very well. Consider these brakes come on a car with about 70more horsepower and weighs 550 lbs more. It stops.

(...)

Oh and the power. 200hp in a 2700 lb car on paper isn’t a big deal. What Subaru has done is they have made this car handle so well that as soon as the road turns……the power becomes far more usable than say a 300hp AWD STI. Keep in mind I drove my 300whp 2011 WRX to pick up the BRZ. My WRX has STOPTECH brakes, Pagid pads, Bilstein shocks, sway bars, steering rack bushings and Michelin Pilot Supersports. The BRZ’s ability to make use of the power you can put down is the key. Gone are the days of turn in…WAIT……then get back on the gas, then track out. Now its FAR more fluid like. It reminds me of a go kart in the sense that you come in hot, trail brake, crank in the amount of steering input you need and the car gives it to you as you sweep past the apex and then track out WITHOUT upsetting the “rhythm” of cornering. Most racers know that the reality of “slow in fast out” becomes fast in, “gather it up “then fast out ! This is true with this car. I do think that it rewards an experienced driver but would also allow a novice to have fun and learn the limits. Yes the factory did design some understeer into this equation….BUT…….before you get mad with visions of -3.9 degrees of front camber…….the understeer this car has is LESS than a older chassis GC Impreza with ALL of the caster and camber tricks.

For me this car is so refreshing with its handling and agility that power just isn’t the focus. Yes it could use some more power but it more than makes up for it with handling, braking and “FEELING”. One thing is for certain, nothing in my recent memory feels as good as a BRZ.

I really don't know what shortcomings EVO was talking about besides the Toyobaru engine's lack of torque. However, what I can definitely see is EVO's own severe shortcomings for a so-called sports car magazine. All I can say is Chris Harris left in the right time.

[EvosM3]

I saw a red FRS while driving by a Toyota/Scion dealership and I really liked it. A light-weight, small, manual transmission coupe with around 200 hp looks like a fun track car. I'd probably wait for the Subaru STi version before getting too exciting about them.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by EvosM3

I saw a red FRS while driving by a Toyota/Scion dealership and I really liked it. A light-weight, small, manual transmission coupe with around 200 hp looks like a fun track car. I'd probably wait for the Subaru STi version before getting too exciting about them.

What Subaru STi version are you talking about? Can you care to elaborate?!

I don't know about you, but all I can read into those words about the Toyobaru is Porsche Cayman's handling trait.

Oh and the power. 200hp in a 2700 lb car on paper isn’t a big deal. What Subaru has done is they have made this car handle so well that as soon as the road turns……the power becomes far more usable than say a 300hp AWD STI. Keep in mind I drove my 300whp 2011 WRX to pick up the BRZ. My WRX has STOPTECH brakes, Pagid pads, Bilstein shocks, sway bars, steering rack bushings and Michelin Pilot Supersports. The BRZ’s ability to make use of the power you can put down is the key. Gone are the days of turn in…WAIT……then get back on the gas, then track out. Now its FAR more fluid like. It reminds me of a go kart in the sense that you come in hot, trail brake, crank in the amount of steering input you need and the car gives it to you as you sweep past the apex and then track out WITHOUT upsetting the “rhythm” of cornering. Most racers know that the reality of “slow in fast out” becomes fast in, “gather it up “then fast out ! This is true with this car. I do think that it rewards an experienced driver but would also allow a novice to have fun and learn the limits. Yes the factory did design some understeer into this equation….BUT…….before you get mad with visions of -3.9 degrees of front camber…….the understeer this car has is LESS than a older chassis GC Impreza with ALL of the caster and camber tricks.

Shouldn't I get too excited about it?!

Man... for a fraction of the Porsche's price, a FR layout car that handles like a dream with DD practicality and track prowess?!

You bet I'm damn excited as any drivers car lover would be! Don't just look at it... drive it, maybe you'll find out your M3's shortcomings.

[EvosM3]

I'm pretty sure Subaru will release an STi variant of the BRZ. Just look at the front page of this thread for the concept car.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by EvosM3

I'm pretty sure Subaru will release an STi variant of the BRZ. Just look at the front page of this thread for the concept car.

I did...

[GoingTooFast]

Subaru BRZ vs Nissan 370Z vs Mazda MX-5

Exercising the same commitment corner after corner, you discover all that fuss was 100 per cent deserved. A low centre of gravity means roll control is first rate. That enhances the sense of accuracy you get from the BRZ’s steering, and contributes to balance and agility of genuinely breathtaking order. Turn-in is instinctive. The BRZ takes no time to settle into a steady cornering state, even under high lateral loads. The engine’s linear power curve gets together with the torque-sensing limited-slip differential to allow you to play with the car’s cornering attitude in a spellbindingly delicate and precise fashion.

This is a sports car first and a fast car second – which is refreshing to report. While the BRZ’s limits are impressive, it’s more the breadth and habitability of the margins of its handling that end up holding your imagination hostage. You don’t need to goad it. Just drive it with the same smooth composure and exactness that characterises the car vividly. Once you’re on terms with it, it becomes playful, subtle and totally beguiling. You can’t help falling for it.

Neither the 370Z nor the MX-5 can thrill at that level. Compared to Subaru, they look like blunt, dull communicators here, outclassed by a new affordable driver’s car of amazing delicacy and extraordinary talent. One that could be the best sports car to come out of Japan since the Honda NSX, and that must be worth £25k from anyone who knows what sunny weekends and great roads were really made for.

[EvosM3]

Oh man that's a slow 0-60 time 7.6 seconds?!?! Fat and slow SUV's get better times than that. I understand it's not build for speed but come on, at least make it sub 6...

[woosh]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

I want this car to be perfect... and it's only some 37 to 74 pound-foot away.

Couldn't agree more!

I'm hoping some easy bolt-on parts will get it close to where we want it though... CAI / Headers + exhaust / how about an ECU chip? lol...

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by EvosM3

Oh man that's a slow 0-60 time 7.6 seconds?!?! Fat and slow SUV's get better times than that. I understand it's not build for speed but come on, at least make it sub 6...

I'm trying really hard... (7.6 seconds is the 0-62 time and it doesn't need to be sub 6, the S2000 wasn't!)

Nevertheless... the Toyobaru is mean. This is what you get with some Cusco modds (stock engine though)... beautiful!

[Singletrack]

Cusco does a nice job.

Who is that driver? His technique drives me insane.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

Cusco does a nice job.

Who is that driver? His technique drives me insane.

I don't know the name of the japanese driver but I also can't see much difference to Jon Miller's technique... it simply seems the way this car is driven fast :

[GoingTooFast]

Let's see some facts and numbers about the Toyobaru:


Brand-new stock Toyobaru dyno (Dynojet) - 164.7 rwhp

2012 RD. 3 PALM BEACH INTERNATIONAL RACEWAY JUN 1-2, 2012
PALM BEACH INTERNATIONAL RACEWAY TIME ATTACK OFFICIAL RESULTS:

Street RWD
1st... Hartmut Feyhl.... Mercedes C63/Renntech C74......... 1:30.208
2nd.. Whit Staples...... Fortune Auto BMW M3.................. 1:31.779
3rd... Bryan Hedian..... Wired Race Team Honda S2000...... 1:33.94
4th.. Jon Miller......... Arsenal Autosport Scion FR-S...... 1:35.744


Jon Miller's quote:

Brakes were fantastic, Hawk Blue's up front, HP+ in the rear. Nice bite, good pedal feel and balance, no fade at all.

Car was a blast! Even with the factory tires, it's very tossable and nimble. Once we put on the Super Sports though, the chasis really came alive and showed the balance and grip that Toyota and Subaru have promised. I only ran the factory tires for one session on Friday and the best time was a 1:42.something. On the same day, on the PSS I went 1:37.1. This morning, the times were mostly the same, but in the evening session after the track cooled down a bit and dried out (we had intermittent rain all weekend), we made some air pressure adjustments and I tried a couple different things with my line and managed to click off a fast time of 1:35.7 - which I was pretty satisfied with.

For tire pressures on the Michelins [245/45/17] we ran 31psi cold, 38psi hot and that seemed to be the sweet spot for performance and grip.

[GoingTooFast]

Also, let's see how accurate is the following Autocar's claim in their Subaru BRZ vs Nissan 370Z vs Mazda MX-5 comparo:

Should a 370Z appear in the rear-view mirror of your Subaru BRZ, you’ve got every chance of keeping it there providing you’re on the right road. And you’ll have a whale of a time in the process.

Well... by watching the gymkhana battle between the Subaru BRZ (stock) against the substantially more powerful Nissan 370Z (gymkhana spec. - different suspension settings, mixing coilovers from many different rate parts and different LSD setups, as well as different tires) we can see that Autocar's claim isn't far off of the truth :

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

I don't know the name of the japanese driver but I also can't see much difference to Jon Miller's technique... it simply seems the way this car is driven fast :

You don't see a difference there? Miller is soooo much smoother.

Thanks for the vids.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

You don't see a difference there? Miller is soooo much smoother.

See Miller's vid from minute 2:03... it only depends on how aggressive you are with the throttle and steering inputs.

Now this is smooth (race driver Niels Langeveld on the Zandvoort racetrack - I was told that BRZ in the Netherlands means 'Brilliant Racer Zandvoort'... I wish it was Advevo ):