[Maestro]

Originally Posted by Litos

no they don't.



i'd be surprised if you can show me any back-up documentation to prove this.

When I said that I was not thinking NYC, I was thinking small town US and I know a few towns I have lived in that the police are required to carry at all time, why, because they can be called to service at any time.

However to your question I found this about NYC

If you want the actual NYPD regulation, it is found in Patrol Guide Procedure 204-08, "Firearms: General Procedures" which states the following:

"1. Be armed at all times when in New York City, unless otherwise directed, or except as provided in item 2 below, with:
a. Service revolver/pistol or off duty revolver/pistol as specified in P.G. 204-09, “Required Firearms And Equipment.”
2. Be unarmed at own discretion while off duty when:
a. Possession of firearm, under the circumstances, would unnecessarily create a risk of loss or theft of the firearm, i.e., participation in sporting activities, attendance at beach and pool, etc., OR
b. On vacation, OR
c. Engaged in authorized off duty employment, OR
d. Engaged in any activity of a nature whereby it would be advisable NOT to carry a firearm, OR
e. There is any possibility that member may become unfit for duty due to the consumption of alcoholic intoxicants."

Note that the second paragraph was added later (I think in the early 90s), when it became obvious it was not a good idea to require a cop to carry a gun in a bar. Also note that since about half the Department lives outside NYC, the rule does not apply if you are off duty at home in, say, Nassau County. I would also not be surprised that a cop is armed while paying a social call in any NYC neighborhood other than his own, as you don't know what will happen while driving from, say, Bay Ridge in Brooklyn to Whitestone in Queens.

In the case of our undercover cop with the bikers, it might have given him away as a officer since the average citizen is not allow to carry in NYC.

There this George Bush law that basiclly authorizes the police to carry at all time anywhere they like while on or off duty unless restricted by this law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enf...ers_Safety_Act

[upstatedoc]

Originally Posted by Maestro

Some places even required the police to always have their weapon with them.

Originally Posted by Litos

i'd be surprised if you can show me any back-up documentation to prove this.

A New York State Trooper told me they have to carry off-duty. Course, it is f**kin' New York State.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by Maestro

When I said that I was not thinking NYC, I was thinking small town US and I know a few towns I have lived in that the police are required to carry at all time, why, because they can be called to service at any time.

However to your question I found this about NYC

that's hilarious.

it basically says "carry at all times.......................unless you don't feel like it"

it is not a 100% requirement that off duty cops carry their service weapons - i don't think you can legally mandate that as a police department.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by upstatedoc

A New York State Trooper told me they have to carry off-duty. Course, it is f**kin' New York State.

i hopnestly think he was bullshitting.....

as an officer, you are not REQUIRED by any sort of law or mandate to be carrying your weapon "just in case".

it's not REQUIRED to pull your duty weapon while you're off duty to protect someone or interfere in some incident....

a lot of cops carry off-duty. i would carry my gun and badge on my belt with t-shirt and shorts all the time, but just because i had it didn't mean i was REQUIRED to get into a gun fight with someone robbing a bank.

would i have !?!? hell fuck yes, but it was never a REQUIREMENT.

nobody can make you carry a weapon if you don't want to - that's just silly.

as a cop you should want to carry, but again, nobody can force you to.

[upstatedoc]

Originally Posted by Litos

i hopnestly think he was bullshitting.....

as an officer, you are not REQUIRED by any sort of law or mandate to be carrying your weapon "just in case".

it's not REQUIRED to pull your duty weapon while you're off duty to protect someone or interfere in some incident....

a lot of cops carry off-duty. i would carry my gun and badge on my belt with t-shirt and shorts all the time, but just because i had it didn't mean i was REQUIRED to get into a gun fight with someone robbing a bank.

would i have !?!? hell fuck yes, but it was never a REQUIREMENT.

nobody can make you carry a weapon if you don't want to - that's just silly.

as a cop you should want to carry, but again, nobody can force you to.

10 4

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by Litos

i hopnestly think he was bullshitting.....

as an officer, you are not REQUIRED by any sort of law or mandate to be carrying your weapon "just in case".

it's not REQUIRED to pull your duty weapon while you're off duty to protect someone or interfere in some incident....

a lot of cops carry off-duty. i would carry my gun and badge on my belt with t-shirt and shorts all the time, but just because i had it didn't mean i was REQUIRED to get into a gun fight with someone robbing a bank.

would i have !?!? hell fuck yes, but it was never a REQUIREMENT.

nobody can make you carry a weapon if you don't want to - that's just silly.

as a cop you should want to carry, but again, nobody can force you to.

To your point, and as we all know police are not required to protect you so yeah they are not police 24 hrs a day and do not act as police 24 hours a day. The rule for police to carry (and it does allow for except for obviously reason since police who shot up bars in the past caused problems for police departments) is done for two reason, first, they can be called in to service at any time and need to be armed, second and the reason which is cites many time is for police personal protect. They do not come out and say the bad guys are trying to kill them since they are police but it is implied.

So NYC does have a requirement for police to be armed at all times while in the city unless one of the condition above apply. Also, Bloomberg came right out and said that he did not care if the officer was off duty he had the responsibility as a NYC police officer to intervene in illegal activity in NYC.

Also, if you are an police officer then you know the Fed pass a law to allow police to travel into any jurisdiction with their weapon whether on or off duty, why because some police department had the carry all the time requirement as well as most police elect to carry all the time but can not due to various state laws. IE NYC, if you not a police in NYC you can not carry, however, the Fed law trumps NYC law so as an officer you are allow to carry in NYC even if you are not on official duty.

By the way the Fed laws was passed by Bush after 911 and the intent was that an off duty officer who is armed has an expectation to stop a terrorist. So yeah police are now responsible to be police 24/7.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by Maestro

By the way the Fed laws was passed by Bush after 911 and the intent was that an off duty officer who is armed has an expectation to stop a terrorist. So yeah police are now responsible to be police 24/7.

:facepalm:

no they're not......

nobody can mandate that sort of liability amd responsibility on a person....

listen to what i'm telling you......

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Litos

:facepalm:

no they're not......

nobody can mandate that sort of liability amd responsibility on a person....

listen to what i'm telling you......

This is true.

Just use the logic. If a police officer is not obligated to protect citizens while they are in uniform, on duty, in their patrol car, etc.... how do you suppose the departments require them to be armed 24/7 in order to protect citizens.

Forget about intent, read what the laws are. Many times the smallest words will make all the difference.


Edit, people need to let go of the mentality that police are on some other level of responsibility as the rest of us are. They are just people, everyday people like the rest of us. They have bad days, they like to ride motorcycles, they like to drive fast, they like to wheelie their bikes, etc.... they are just people like us. Like us, they are very capable of making poor decisions.

They are not to be held at some higher moral standard than the rest of us. They are however held to standard procedures set by the laws and departments. But that's all.

In my eyes, that cop had no more obligation to help Lien than any other bystander and i'm 99.98% sure the courts agree.

Any person who depends on the cops for their personal and family's protection is fool hardy and any honest cop will tell you the same.

[carve]

Originally Posted by pgviper

Curious to see everyone's opinions. As I said in another thread addressing this topic. No matter what the circumstance is, unless you are in blatant danger then there is no excuse for the RR actions. It is clear disregard for other human's lives.

I couldn't disagree more. The people he ran over volunteered to be a human roadblock, and he was trying to protect himself and his family. Maybe this video will help biker gangs reconsider being human roadblocks in the future.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by carve

I couldn't disagree more. The people he ran over volunteered to be a human roadblock, and he was trying to protect himself and his family. Maybe this video will help biker gangs reconsider being human roadblocks in the future.

+1

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

This is true.

Just use the logic. If a police officer is not obligated to protect citizens while they are in uniform, on duty, in their patrol car, etc.... how do you suppose the departments require them to be armed 24/7 in order to protect citizens.

Forget about intent, read what the laws are. Many times the smallest words will make all the difference.


Edit, people need to let go of the mentality that police are on some other level of responsibility as the rest of us are. They are just people, everyday people like the rest of us. They have bad days, they like to ride motorcycles, they like to drive fast, they like to wheelie their bikes, etc.... they are just people like us. Like us, they are very capable of making poor decisions.

They are not to be held at some higher moral standard than the rest of us. They are however held to standard procedures set by the laws and departments. But that's all.

In my eyes, that cop had no more obligation to help Lien than any other bystander and i'm 99.98% sure the courts agree.

Any person who depends on the cops for their personal and family's protection is fool hardy and any honest cop will tell you the same.

+1

[Mr Tonka]

I just test drove a Range Rover.

[mccannable]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

I just test drove a Range Rover.

Amazing aren't they.

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by carve

I couldn't disagree more. The people he ran over volunteered to be a human roadblock, and he was trying to protect himself and his family. Maybe this video will help biker gangs reconsider being human roadblocks in the future.

Exactly. And the vast majority, including law enforcement, agree with you.

[blackboxing]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

I just test drove a Range Rover.

I hear they're really good over bumps on the road?

[pt]

Litos, Mr. Tonka - Quick thing, I've come around to your perspective on the responsibility of cops (WRT protecting people, etc). Just something I hadn't considered in that light before. I didn't like it at first, I tried to find some way to disprove it.

But you are absolutely right and I've changed my own view on it accordingly. Thanks for that.

[M3Denver]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

I just test drove a Range Rover.

Lol

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by mccannable

Amazing aren't they.

2014 RR Sport Supercharged. Yeah, pretty frickin awesome. that big ass box does 0-60 under 5 sec! And because it's 470 pounds of torque, it feels faster than that. I went around some bends on a favorite road of mine and without sounding blasphemous, it felt just as confident as the M3. So i went to some more turns that i like and the thing just felt great. I know that the M3 is faster and handles better, but the feeling i experienced in the RR was on par with what i get from the M3 about 90% of the time. It's only that 10% or less where i'm driving at 8-9 tenths of the M3 where it feels better.

The exhaust is straight nasty.

Originally Posted by blackboxing

I hear they're really good over bumps on the road?

lol! But yes, in deed they are. I instinctively started to slow down for a speed table and the sales guy was like, NO! keep your foot down. Hit that huge speed table at 45 and barely felt it. I would have to creep over it in my car at 10mph.

Originally Posted by pt

Litos, Mr. Tonka - Quick thing, I've come around to your perspective on the responsibility of cops (WRT protecting people, etc). Just something I hadn't considered in that light before. I didn't like it at first, I tried to find some way to disprove it.

But you are absolutely right and I've changed my own view on it accordingly. Thanks for that.

Not too long ago it wasn't like this. As recently as 15 years ago, cops were a different breed. They for the most part had a mind set of protecting people. I don't know if it's the lawyers that changed things or just the fact that there are too many crazy bastards out there to risk their life every day. Not to mention that it seems like they are risking their lives for those same crazy bastards.

But you are right, now more than ever, cops show up after the crime; contain it, investigate it, maybe arrest the perceived guilty party. But what they rarely do is prevent crime. Preventing it is something they have rarely ever done since police inception. It's just something they can't do all the time. On the rare occasion just their presence can prevent something, but those times are more lucky timing than anything else.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not bashing cops. It's physically impossible for them to prevent all crime. As someone else pointed out, when you need a cop now, they are only minutes away.

I read some crime statistics a while back and read something to the effect that the majority of crimes committed are over within 30 to 90 seconds.

As you've seen, the only way a cop can protect you all the time is if you are a cop.

[Litos]

cops can't "prevent crime" anymore because this ain't the 70's and 80's where cops could "teach someone a lesson" and get away with it without a video being posted on social media....

plus, with all the lawyers willing to sue a police department and the city, cops just do as much as they feel safe doing.....

[edirtaynine]

laywers/attorneys are probably the second richest scumbags in the U.S.
politicians take first place.

[Billup]

Originally Posted by Litos

cops can't "prevent crime" anymore because this ain't the 70's and 80's where cops could "teach someone a lesson" and get away with it without a video being posted on social media....

plus, with all the lawyers willing to sue a police department and the city, cops just do as much as they feel safe doing.....

Which truly is sad. Not saying I am a perfect law abiding citizen, but the world has become so soft and emotional about..., EVERYTHING, that an "F" bomb is about as just for a case as a kidnapping. As if a lot of the local PD's aren't hurting enough, the constant monkey on their back (you called them lawyers I think) leaves them to do just as you said, what THEY feel safe doing, or the force pays the price.

FWIW, I too test drove a RR this weekend. IRL, I went to a Wallyworld parking lot and accelerated over each island..., there is no way that gentleman knew there was a person or motorcycle underneath when he took off.

[enfield]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

2014 RR Sport Supercharged. Yeah, pretty frickin awesome. that big ass box does 0-60 under 5 sec! And because it's 470 pounds of torque, it feels faster than that. I went around some bends on a favorite road of mine and without sounding blasphemous, it felt just as confident as the M3. So i went to some more turns that i like and the thing just felt great. I know that the M3 is faster and handles better, but the feeling i experienced in the RR was on par with what i get from the M3 about 90% of the time. It's only that 10% or less where i'm driving at 8-9 tenths of the M3 where it feels better.

The exhaust is straight nasty.

I have a 2012 Range Rover Sport Supercharged. It weighs much more than the 2014 - but I love the beast. It has a steel frame as opposed to aluminium in the 2014. However, it still goes like stink and you can get a jump on most fast cars, including the M3, because of the incredible traction off the mark. The M3 does tend to catch up after 2 or 3 seconds unless it's raining

[utahm5]

Originally Posted by yarviinn

A shame he didn't run over more of them...





For the lulz...