[scm6079]

Originally Posted by De90man

Why are you using BMW sedans to prove your point? I said the sports car of the future will be lighter and more efficient, and will not need a 7.0L engine to do sub 4 sec 0-60.
Cheers

Sadly, BMW's new M3 featured in that issue is quoted as an EPA city 13MPG! Ack. The new sports car of tomorrow is heavy and inefficient. The 'vette gets better MPG... So I wouldn't knock it there. No gas guzzler tax on the 'vette.

Although personally I don't get that "gotta have it feeling" with any chevy, even the corvette.

_Scott

[De90man]

Originally Posted by scm6079

Sadly, BMW's new M3 featured in that issue is quoted as an EPA city 13MPG! Ack. The new sports car of tomorrow is heavy and inefficient. The 'vette gets better MPG... So I wouldn't knock it there. No gas guzzler tax on the 'vette.

Although personally I don't get that "gotta have it feeling" with any chevy, even the corvette.

_Scott

Scott, I was reading an article in CAR magazine about BMWs M Division and the author was saying BMW/M wants to shift the thinking in car world and with their own cars. The jist was:

People will pay a premuim for more hp...but average car-buyers cannot grasp paying more for less weight.

It is a herculean task for the ad agencies (me) and brand managers But this is the future. Many car makers have proven that they can make great powerful engines. Chevy included. But cars are getting heavier.

Look at the Comparo T1 in some of the mags this month. 1053hp per ton pwr/wt ratio. 0-100 in under 6 secs with a light 3.5 L engine. Now, this is a race car for the street, but their ultimate goal is to prove the viability of lightweight thinking in mass-market cars.

Sorry for the threadjack...the Vette is certainly light...but packaged inefficently

[DCJAX]

Originally Posted by De90man

Why are you using BMW sedans to prove your point? I said the sports car of the future will be lighter and more efficient, and will not need a 7.0L engine to do sub 4 sec 0-60.

Also, an engine that big in a 3200lb car...the numbers great, but not very adimrable from an engineering standpoint (efficiency) when a Porsche 911S does almost the same numbers with a normally aspirated engine half that size...and its heavier.


Cheers

Not that argument again.

Efficiency of an engine is dictated by Fuel input and power output, relative size of the combustion chamber is not relevant. I could give a crap less if my engine had 900 Liters, HP and MPG are what counts. (and cost/reliability of course) The vet engines outshine that Porsche in every single one of those categories.

I do hope that companies push for lighter cars, it's a much better way to increase MPG, speed, etc.

[Div4our]

Ariel Atoms are sooooo freakin awesome. My dream track car, I'd get rid of all my karts for one of those.

[vAnt826]

Why does displacement matter? That is the most retarded argument I have ever heard.

What really matters is power and fuel efficiency (MPG). Those are areas the C6 excels at.

I honestly would take a C6 in a heart beat over any Porsche under a GT3.

[De90man]

For argument sake, assume they both get the same gas mileage:

400+hp from 6 liters of air...

400 hp from 3.8 liters of air...

I'm not an engineer, but one is more efficient than the other no?

[a burrito]

Originally Posted by vAnt826

I honestly would take a C6 in a heart beat over any Porsche under a GT3.

Really? So you wouldn't take a 911 turbo or a carrera s over a c6?

Anyways, the c6 is quite impressive. Getting far decent gas mileages than that of some of its competitors. Good price strong engine and quite the looker. Cars are getting heavier but efficient at the same time.

Personally, the c6 not in the same league as in performance as the 335i. It is ahead. Read in context. The c6 is a PERFORMANCE car not a quick touring car like the 335i. American car or not, making a great performance car these days isnt a damn mystery, even chevy can make something decent.

[lyndon_h]

ahhh, the good ole 'efficiency' argument. IMO there are very few cars that have more efficient engines than a C6. It has the gas mileage of of a 328 but with 2x the hp and 2x the torque.

really, the HP/ Liter argument is played out (and this is coming from a S2000 lover).

it looks like the vette haters are beginning to run out of thing to complain about. the reliability argument doesn't work, unless your comparing it against an accord or camry. its not a heavy car. it gets great gas mileage. its faster around the 'ring than a 911, so the 'american cars can handle in the twisties' argument is dead. the interior options are now very competitive. The engine is pretty much bulletproof and very mod friendly. about the only thing that could be attacked is the 'image' of corvette drivers which is funny coming from BMW drivers (who often fall victims of stereotypes). I think the argument should now just be 'i'm not fond of it' and leave it at that. there just aren't a lot of valid arguments...

let me get off the saopbox now...

disclaimer: im on my mobile so disregard the dictation mistakes.

[Gripster]

Nicely argued Lyndon. Actually, in spite of my chest wig comment above, I quite like recent Corvettes. They represent true bang for buck, so if people could get past the image issues, they would be quite pleased with what they found.

I would think about getting one, but feel that you need be at least forty for the image to fit...

[Carnage]

Originally Posted by lyndon_h

ahhh, the good ole 'efficiency' argument. IMO there are very few cars that have more efficient engines than a C6. It has the gas mileage of of a 328 but with 2x the hp and 2x the torque.

really, the HP/ Liter argument is played out (and this is coming from a S2000 lover).

it looks like the vette haters are beginning to run out of thing to complain about. the reliability argument doesn't work, unless your comparing it against an accord or camry. its not a heavy car. it gets great gas mileage. its faster around the 'ring than a 911, so the 'american cars can handle in the twisties' argument is dead. the interior options are now very competitive. The engine is pretty much bulletproof and very mod friendly. about the only thing that could be attacked is the 'image' of corvette drivers which is funny coming from BMW drivers (who often fall victims of stereotypes). I think the argument should now just be 'i'm not fond of it' and leave it at that. there just aren't a lot of valid arguments...

let me get off the saopbox now...

disclaimer: im on my mobile so disregard the dictation mistakes.

stated nicely...

If you really look at the merits of the car and get past the "image" of 50 yrs old Jersey guys in track suits and chains (sorry but even I laugh at that mental image) .....you're really left with "I just don't like it". What I have found is that most people who say that don't base those thoughts on stereotypes of the car that really don't exist anymore.

[DCJAX]

Originally Posted by De90man

For argument sake, assume they both get the same gas mileage:

400+hp from 6 liters of air...

400 hp from 3.8 liters of air...

I'm not an engineer, but one is more efficient than the other no?

They don't get the same gas mileage though.

You are missing the mark. Two engines that produce near the same amount of power with a similar Air/fuel ratio will intake/expel roughly the same amount of air/exhaust.

The vette has larger cylinders, meaning it can burn more air/fuel in each cycle, the porsche has a smaller displacement, meaning it has to burn through it's cylinders more frequently to "pump" the same amount of air. Ie the Vette reaches it's HP levels of lower RPMs. (very rough and dirty explanation... ) Think about crotch rockets, they are tiny engines, and to produce meaningful HP numbers they have to Rev sky high.

Focusing on just displacement is missing the forest for the trees. Why not take into account the number of cams and valves? Surely an engine with fewer parts is a more efficient design no?

[e92man]

if u put performance aside............... how would u feel when u unlock the doors to a c6 after a few years and smell that low grade american leather smell. then u turn up the a/c and the knob is jiggling around and the mirror cant stay straight. trust me, my parents have owned the top of the line suburbans for years and stuff like that always happens. and i know some people say the vette is better but for the people who fall for that all i can say is that is salesman smack. and if u really think about it....................... how much do u really drive ur car to its max potential.
just my .02

[Mr.Marvelous]

corvettes interior is like made from melted action man s.

they also handle like ass

I d always prefer a slower bmw in driving pleasure

[DCJAX]

GM interiors have not been fancy over the years, but mine have always held up fairly well.

Originally Posted by Mr.Marvelous

corvettes interior is like made from melted action man s.

they also handle like ass

I d always prefer a slower bmw in driving pleasure

We must drive box trucks then...

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=458eebee78a2f

BMW M3 (E46) vs Chevrolet Corvette C6
Power Lap Times
Track M3 (E46) ---Corvette C6
Top Gear Track 1:31.8 ---1:26.8
Nordschleife 8:22 ----8:15
Hockenheim Shorttrack 1:17.6 ----1:14.8
Vairano testtrack 1:23.190 ----1:21.219

Specs
Discipline M3 (E46) Corvette C6
Max speed 155 m/h (250 km/h) 179.8 m/h (290 km/h)
0-100 km/h acceleration 5.1 --- 4.5
0-200 km/h acceleration 16.8 16.8
0-300 km/h acceleration - -
Quarter mile time - 12.8
Power/weight ratio 0.16 0.2

Summary
Discipline M3 (E46) Corvette C6
Track Performance 0 points 84 points
Straight line speed 91 points 103 points
Total 91 187

[E90330iS]

Doesn't the vette cost as much as the new M3?

[BMW335icDDS]

This post is in the wrong forum. This belongs in other cars section. The vette is fast, but ugly, crappy build materials and for someone who can't afford a Porsche. Just IMO.

[DCJAX]

The only decent Porsche is the GT3, and as far as build materials I'd bet my 335 that a vette will out last an equivalent year/mileage Porsche.

These arguments are really tiring. The haters never respond to the facts, and they will never change their mind.

Originally Posted by E90330iS

Doesn't the vette cost as much as the new M3?

You are thinking of the Z06 maybe, 65k-ish. Regular vettes are in the 3 series price point

[Carnage]

Originally Posted by De90man

Why are you using BMW sedans to prove your point? I said the sports car of the future will be lighter and more efficient, and will not need a 7.0L engine to do sub 4 sec 0-60.

Why am I using BMW sedans??? Because it's a BMW forum. Nowhere in my statement did I make any mention of how that correlated back to your "sports car of the future will be lighter.....etc" statement, only you made that inference.

The statement I made was simple, I asked you what facts you used to make the statement of a "heavy engine" (which you still haven't produced BTW, ) and used those facts to show that's not any heavier then motors that get praised around here on a regular basis.

[tgom222]

Originally Posted by a burrito

Really? So you wouldn't take a 911 turbo or a carrera s over a c6?

911 Turbo is higher up the 911 food chain than the GT3. Turbo and GT2 are tops.

Carrera S vs. Corvette C6.5 (the 2008 one has 36 more hp w/ exhaust option than 2007)? Depends on what you want. Performance? There is no category in which the Carrera S can hang. Pick the Carrera S if you want the image.

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by DCJAX

You are thinking of the Z06 maybe, 65k-ish. Regular vettes are in the 3 series price point

The hell they are. The coupe costs 3k more base than my car did out the door. Let alone get any options or the convertible. They're more like a 5 series price point.

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by tgom222

Carrera S vs. Corvette C6.5 (the 2008 one has 36 more hp w/ exhaust option than 2007)? Depends on what you want. Performance? There is no category in which the Carrera S can hang. Pick the Carrera S if you want the image.

Driving feel?

[DCJAX]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

The hell they are. The coupe costs 3k more base than my car did out the door. Let alone get any options or the convertible. They're more like a 5 series price point.

MSRP starts at 45... with plenty of wiggle room. 5ers start at 49k, 335 sedan at 39k, and we know how little BMW dealers negotiate. I guess saying they are in the 335 price point is more accurate than "3series". I've seen new vettes advertised at 39k. I think same ballpark.