[carve]

Originally Posted by number335

I think it would be more towards you wanting to take care of your parents more than them expecting you to.

Wait...so they choose to be born partly because they want to take care of you when you're old? You said one of the benefits of having kids is to have someone to take care of you when you're old. Sounds to me like you have an expectation.

If one of your parents fell ill, would you not want to take care of them? Or would you prefer to leave them in the care of strangers?

It would depend on the situation. I live 1400 miles from my parents, so it would involve me more or less starting over, rather than stopping by to help them out after work. If we expend a LOT of resources helping them, what if we don't have enough left over to take care of ourselves in old age? It'd be wrong to put myself in that situation and then pass the buck to my kid.

Also, between our selves, my wife's parents and mine, that'd be six people being supported by two incomes. I don't think we could manage...so how do you decide who you leave in the cold?

[grieverr]

Originally Posted by carve

If we expend a LOT of resources helping them, what if we don't have enough left over to take care of ourselves in old age?

Seriously, man, go buy an emotion chip! I'm teasing...

But these are the kinds of things that most people don't rationalize. This is emotional.

Without a second thought, I would move to where my parents are to help them if they need it. Does it make "sense", no. Like you said, I'd probably ruin my finances. But I could not live with myself with letting my parents suffer if I can help, even at my expense. Another scenario, I'd move them in with me. It would be a bit cramped, but we'd all be ok.

Everyone has had a different experience with their families, and that's what shapes the relationships. Mine were extremely positive and therefore I am a huge believer in family before anything else. Which is why having kids was a non-decision for me. It may not be for you.

[carve]

Originally Posted by grieverr

Wow, OP....no kidding about your emotional range!

I couldn't agree more with ideliver. Once you have 'em, you cannot imagine life without them.

So, just roll the dice?

You can't imagine the freedom to do what you want when you want, and the reduced stress?

Couldn't you come up with a similar advantage/disadvantage list for having a spouse? Being tied down, having her cheat on you, expensive, maybe not approving of your friends. Yet, you sound like you're still very much in love. It would be something similar with kids.

Pretty much everyone needs social interaction, a trusted companion to share your life with, and a sexual partner. It's the most primal of drives. Kids used to be incidental to this rather than planned, but that need not be the case anymore.

[number335]

Originally Posted by carve

It would depend on the situation. I live 1400 miles from my parents, so it would involve me more or less starting over, rather than stopping by to help them out after work. If we expend a LOT of resources helping them, what if we don't have enough left over to take care of ourselves in old age? It'd be wrong to put myself in that situation and then pass the buck to my kid.

Also, between our selves, my wife's parents and mine, that'd be six people being supported by two incomes. I don't think we could manage...so how do you decide who you leave in the cold?

It would depend on your extended family and if they could help out.

The way I see it, my parents' sacrifices allowed me to have the opportunities that got me where I am today. I owe a lot to them. Once you get older, the lonelier life gets. Your friends pass away and sometimes all you have left is your family. I understand the huge undertaking it would be to take care of your parents. And most likey, they do not want to burden you.

The question is, would you sacrifice for your parents the same way they did for you.

[carve]

Originally Posted by grieverr

Everyone has had a different experience with their families, and that's what shapes the relationships. Mine were extremely positive and therefore I am a huge believer in family before anything else. Which is why having kids was a non-decision for me. It may not be for you.

My mom's mom moved up when I was a kid (CA to WA). They were close before the move, but after their relationship fell apart in mutual resentment. It didn't begin to recover until about 7 years after she moved away again to my mom's brother. Now they resent each other.

My dad's mom moved up and that's OK. She largely is able to take care of herself though.

So, my experience is mixed. I do expect my parents to do everything possible to ensure they take care of themselves first.

What if one of my parents got sick, I went broke helping them, and then the other one got sick. "Sorry dad- you shoulda gotten sick before mom" (they're divorced).

I think it would be wrong for a parent, to accept so much assistance that it would leave their children unable to support themselves.

would you sacrifice for your parents the same way they did for you

I didn't ask to be born- my parent's are the ones who wanted a kid, so it was a decision- not a sacrifice. I'm supposed to be grateful that, after they decided to have a kid, they decided to take care of him, too? That kind of comes with the decision to have a kid although, again, many don't think that far ahead. Do you really see your kids as a sacrifice you were obligated to make?


But yes- (probably) having the friend when I'm old is a benefit I listed. I'd like to have adult offspring...it's the children I'm not so sure about.

[grieverr]

Originally Posted by carve

You can't imagine the freedom to do what you want when you want, and the reduced stress?

I can, because I had it before I had kids. And I'll have it again as they get older and more self-reliant.

As far as stress, it comes in many different flavors. My job causes me stress, an out-out-warranty BMW causes me stress I decided that the stress of kids is worth having.

Originally Posted by carve

Pretty much everyone needs social interaction, a trusted companion to share your life with, and a sexual partner. It's the most primal of drives. Kids used to be incidental to this rather than planned, but that need not be the case anymore.

You can have an active social and sexual life without getting married and tied down.
Kids can also become trusted companions and valuable members of your life who can end up enriching your life.

Anyway, I'm certainly not trying to convince you. I do want to convey that everything has a plus and minus. And all the things you HAVE chosen also have negatives, yet you still chose them. And the people that have and want kids are people who understand the negatives and decide that the positives far outweigh them.

[grieverr]

Originally Posted by carve

I didn't ask to be born- my parent's are the ones who wanted a kid, so it was a decision- not a sacrifice. I'm supposed to be grateful that, after they decided to have a kid, they decided to take care of him, too?

In my opinion, absolutely. They could have abused you, killed you, given you up for adoption, etc... But instead they chose to raise you in a manner that seems favorable due to your apparent productive place in society.

I'm not saying you owe them anything, but I, personally, believe you should be grateful.

For the record, I'm not in the camp of expecting my children should care for me, although I most certainly would/will for my parents.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Disclaimer: I have no kids myself, and no regrets at all about that. Have many friends/family in my peer group who do, and whose experiences I've observed. There is not enough time in life to try everything first hand, so I try and pay close attention to the experiences of others so I can learn.

My observations: outcomes can vary drastically. Some folks have great kids who do love them unconditionally, and some have monsters who turn out to be disrespectful, entitled monsters.

Parents I know seem to fall into 3 groups:

I know some people who insist that having kids was the greatest thing to ever happen to them, and I believe them, I think they really feel that way. They are usually great parents.

I know others who publicly say that kids are really worth the stress and sacrifice like the first group, but the way they say it, it seems as though they are trying to convince themselves of that as much as they are trying to convince me of that. Those people, I dont believe they are being honest with themselves or others, but they feel it is socially unacceptable to admit how they really feel.

Then, finally, the third group, who will quietly admit privately that while they love their kids and dont wish to give them up, if they knew back then what they knew now, they probably would not have had children if they could go back in time. Those people, like group 1, are truthful also.

You are the best judge as to which of the 3 categories you are most likely to fit into, and even then you cannot know for sure. More people who think they would be in category 1 end up in 2 or 3, than vice-versa in my observation.

Unlike a job or a marriage, you are stuck with kids. If things are not even close to what you hoped or expected, or it becomes obvious to you that you are not cut out for it, you cannot walk away as easily. That for me, is the ultimate commitment, forget getting married or buying a house or whatever. You can't really try it out.

Due to the level of commitment and sacrifice required, IMHO you shouldnt really do it unless ayou can look yourself in the mirror and say with 100% conviction that you are more sure about your desire to have children than you have been about anything in your life. Even if you are that certain, it seems almost guaranteed there will still be times when you will be questioning your decision later, so if you are the least bit below that level (and it sounds like you are), then it seems to me you are setting yourself (and future children) up for unhappiness down the road.

There are now 7 billion folks on this rock. Things this planet is NOT short of: children, and resentful parents.

[Litos]

I have kids

They're spoiled

They like riding in TT sedans and SRT8 HEMIs

They don't suffer in the toy/attention/clothes/food department and I STIL can mod both of my car and pretty much buy anything I want...

If you can't afford kids AND maintain a "lavish" lifestyle, don't have kids...

[CollinsE90]

OP if you're rational you'll now you aren't fit emotionally to be a parent, so don't bother.

[F82_SID]

Originally Posted by DOCTOR 3VIL

Yes, twin girls.
Age 4 right now. Love them to death of course but when you get home from a hard days work there is no time to rest at all. They seem to have an unlimited source of energy. I wish they would give me some of that.
Sometimes I can't even talk in piece with my wife, because they are like "daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy, mommy, mommy, ............."
The only rest I get is after they go to sleep at night.

Let me put it this way: It's the best thing and the most difficult thing in your life!

Originally Posted by ideliver

Once you have kids...you could never imagine a life without them...

Unconditional love

Originally Posted by number335

One benefit I can think of (and this may be a cultural thing) is that when you get old, your kids will be there to take care of you.

Other than that, knowing how I was a kid, there is no benefit.

Originally Posted by grieverr

Wow, OP....no kidding about your emotional range!

I couldn't agree more with ideliver. Once you have 'em, you cannot imagine life without them.

You cannot place logic on having kids. It's like a robot trying to compute love.

Couldn't you come up with a similar advantage/disadvantage list for having a spouse? Being tied down, having her cheat on you, expensive, maybe not approving of your friends. Yet, you sound like you're still very much in love. It would be something similar with kids.

What I'm saying is, you can't rationalize having children in a few bullet points. You either want a family or not. Your life will change, but the hope is that it changes for the better.

All great points. If I didnt have a kid I would be in the CIA overseas. But I do. Not only do I have a kid but I fought for and won primary custody. My daughter is 7 and it is hard. I do enjoy a break once in a while. On paper there are a lot more negatives. However, there are just some moments that you cannot put into words that make it all worth it..

Here is a great example: A few weeks ago I spent about 2 hours trying to teach my daughter 2 digit math and subtraction. I was already dead tired from work, I was hungry, I was getting frustrated because she wasn't getting it. Then, all of a sudden it clicked and she got it. She was so excited. She wrote me a note because she was so excited. All that the note said was "Dear Daddy, thank you for teaching me". That note made my heart melt and it made it all worth it.

I too am extremely logical like you. I dont know what it is though, after having a kid I have become much more sensitive to the emotional aspect of things rather then just always looking at everything from a logical point of view.

And I dont care what anybody fucking says, HAVING A DOG OR A NIECE OR NEPHEW IS NOT THE SAME AS HAVING YOUR OWN KID!!!!!

Makes everything worth it:

[grieverr]

Just one last quick note, but I think MiddleAgedAl is correct. So depending on your circle of friends, what you may see may not be what you would experience.

Again, I'm not advocating that having children is the greatest thing or the right thing to do. This will vary tremendously per individuals.

[carve]

Originally Posted by grieverr

In my opinion, absolutely. They could have abused you, killed you, given you up for adoption, etc...

I see it differently. I don't walk down the steet thanking everyone who doesn't punch me in the face or stab me. There are certain things you have to do to be a functioning, non-douchebag member of society. Not attacking people at random or neglecting/doing bad things to your kids are two of those things. Kids didn't ask to be born, and they aren't delivered at random by storks- they are their parent's decision and responsibility. It's not charitable or nice to take care of them- it's the basic responsibility.

My parent's could certainly have been a lot worse...but I would do a lot of things differently if I had kids.

E92 Sid: how was the relationship with the mother before kids?

My observations: outcomes can vary drastically. Some folks have great kids who do love them unconditionally, and some have monsters who turn out to be disrespectful, entitled monsters.

When I lived in CA a few years back, an older friend of mine from Beligum had 12 and 14 year old daughters. The ideal family. Great, nice kids...liked to do all kinds of things with their parents...smart...healthy...could carry on interesting conversations with adults...responsible. I thought "hey- that seems nice. Maybe it'd be nice to have a family". Then, two years ago, an old college friend of mine came to visit for 5 days with his 2.5 year old. What....A....Monster. Seriously- this little kid was an @$$hole, and his parents would get offended when we'd stand there staring in utter disbelief. They seemed kind of miserable, too. We've fallen out of touch since that visit, although they have ANOTHER kid now. Sort of put the brakes on any fleeting interest in kids for both me and my wife.

[GetSomeE92]

I'm with you, man. I have no desire to have kids. Seems like I hear parents complain about their kids far more often than not.

[matthewk]

Originally Posted by ideliver

Once you have kids...you could never imagine a life without them...

Unconditional love

Surprised you didn't mention Down Syndrome given the OP and Spouse's age...

At age 25, 1 in 1,250
At age 30, 1 in 1,000
At age 35, 1 in 400
At age 40, 1 in 100
At 45, 1 in 30
At 49, a 1 in 10

A Down's baby isn't your child until their 18, their your child for life. When you start bumping the odds like this, you should be thinking about it.

[carve]

Yeah...fortunately, that can be diagnosed before birth. We wouldn't put ourselves in that situation.

[Q4P]

Lol, r we really discussing the advantages vs disadvantages of having kids? Until you have kids you'll never know and as someones already mentioned there is a huge emotional factor to this. If you dont see the clear advantages don't have kids; more than likely you're not mature enough and thats completely Ok but This isn't exactly cross shopping between cars.

[carve]

Originally Posted by CollinsE90

OP if you're rational you'll now you aren't fit emotionally to be a parent, so don't bother.

Nice, Collins. There's a difference between emotionally fit and emotionally driven. I love my wife, loved my dogs, and as I said before I'm sure I'd love my kids and be a very responsible parent IF I had them- I'm just trying to decide whether I should have them.

[Jebus335]

To the OP:

IMO, you and your wife sound selfish* (I mean no disrespect), and selfish parents tend to not make the best parents. The same argument can be said about marriage as well, if both you and your wife don't feel it necessary to have kids, then don't. The reason you are able to list more negatives than positives is because deep down, you don't really want kids, so dont.


* For the record I know nothing about you, and all of my observations and opinions are derived from the OP only...

[carve]

Originally Posted by Questforpower

Lol, r we really discussing the advantages vs disadvantages of having kids? Until you have kids you'll never know... If you dont see the clear advantages don't have kids; more than likely you're not mature enough

So, you had kids without knowing why you wanted to have kids? And THAT is the way to be mature and responsible? And then you have the gall to give me a hard time about not seeing the clear advantages in advance, moments after you said I wouldn't see it until afterwards? Wow. Logic isn't your strong point, is it?

I know why I like dogs. Every time they see you or you feed them they act like it's the best thing that ever happend to them, they can be hilariously goofy and affectionate, their care-fee attitude actually reduces my stress (dog owners have lower than average stress- parents higher than average), and they'll defend you with their lives if necessary. All that and they're relatively easy to take care of (I'm guessing....what....maybe 5-10% the cost, difficulty, and time of taking care of a kid). Those are some good positives, and far fewer negatives. Still, it makes things like travel difficult.

[carve]

Originally Posted by Jebus335

To the OP:

IMO, you and your wife sound selfish* (I mean no disrespect),

What the hell? How can I be selfish against someone who doesn't exist? The point is, if I had a kid I WOULD do the best I could, and I recognize all the trade offs I'd have to make and I'm trying to decide whether it's worth it. If I were selfish, I'd just have the kid and neglect it and go on living my normal life.

If by "selfish" you mean I look out for my own rational self interest, then hell yes I'm selfish, and I'll bet you are, too. It doesn't mean I neglect my responsibilities, if that's what you're getting at.

[darkcloud]

To the OP. my wife and I aren't as old as you guys but she is nearing the getting ready for kids stage. I'm down but not jumping for joy at the prospect of kids. We differ on amount. I want 1 with a option of 2, she is 2 with an option of 3. She was an only child and didn't like it. I count myself in the only child group as well. My brother is almost 13 years older than me and we have different fathers, I would never call him my step brother but the 13 year difference was emmense when I was growing up. By the time I was 6 he was moved out of the house.

Well we were at my brothers house last night for my nephews 4th bday. As we were leaving my wife looks at me and says, "so, you ready for kids" with a laugh. I want nothing to do with it. But my brother was completely in the OPs shoes. Mid-late 30's and had to have Irish twins to even think of having 2 kids. Their great, I love my nephews but they are off the wall insane. Sugar high all day and night haha. Maybe it was their parenting style? My friends have an incredible little boy and they are in their mid 20's. So I deduct that my brother and sister in law waited a little too long and were too set in their ways and churned out great little monsters lol.

I want a kid but I rethink it often haha