[mechanixhorseman]

Originally Posted by mishenka

Sorry if I offended you with my assumption. But in my case, as you put it, although I was not the driver of either vehicle, the driver is (in any collision situation) a bit nervous, doesn't believe how it could happen, doesn't considered him/herself at fault, truly believes he/she did not cause the collision. But it seems (SEEMS) like the vehicle that backed up struck the vehicle that was driving along the road. But what if the car that drives along the road, in perpendicular to the backing up vehicle, goes with excessive speed, disregarding the speed bump, disregarding the already half backed up length of the other car!, the backing up driver genuinely never saw it coming despite the fact that the driver carefully observes the space behind, on the right, on the left sequentially, and that car (the perpendicular driving one) tries to avoid the collision in the last moment, steers a bit to the left but simply did not have enough time and instead of hitting the half backed up with its front collides into it with it's passenger rear quarter. And everything happens so fast that the driver of the backed up car might think "oops.. I hit someone with my rear bumper"... This is exactly what a stressed situation will do to you. And you might say to the officer "..I hit the car.. but..." But whatever you say after "but" is kind of irrelevant - you just admitted to something you do not completely understand at this particular moment.

So, you are free to call anyone a "toolbag" for exercising their rights -it's a free country But try not to be so offended and defensive when others are making a fair assumption about you based on what you say.

By the way - even you have the right to remain silent

I came off as defensive because you came off as offensive. Either way, no offense taken or intended.

I'm not saying anyone is a toolbag for exercising their rights, and it is usually if not always in your best interest when talking to law enforcement to invoke your rights. The gist of what I was saying is this. If someone knew they were at fault in something as minor as a fender bender and wanted to remain silent they are well within their rights to do so, but it is sad that people don't just take responsibility for their mistakes anymore.

I'm not saying this is what happened in your friends case, since it doesn't seem as cut and dry as that. Just in general.

[Rustler]

Originally Posted by mechanixhorseman

Sort of a douchey thing to assume, wouldn't you say?

Based on those facts alone, the poster was in the right and the "fat cop" was in the wrong. Just because I work in law enforcement doesn't mean I think all cops are always in the right. Don't be a dipshit.

However your case, if you hit someone, you are well within your rights to not incriminate yourself and try to work the system to "get away with it", but it doesn't change the fact that you are still a toolbag.

I think the larger point which the above post misses is that it's often not a question of right and wrong. In the OPs original scenario, who hit who? Maybe the person backing up didn't look carefully enough and at the same time maybe the other driver was going too fast and didn't stop even though he saw the other car backing up (in my state all drivers have a duty to avoid accidents, whether they have the right of way or not). Right and wrong can be more a question of interpretation than fact, and making hasty and ill concieved statements immediately after an accident is a good way to find yourself holding the short straw despite the fact that the other driver may share all or part of the fault.

Mechanixhorseman, you're disparaging comments about defense attorneys betray your ignorance of their vital role in the very justice system which you purport to uphold. (on a side note, I think it's scary to think that a detective who is charged with reading someone their miranda rights would consider remaining silent to be "working the system.") Without a vigorous defense we would all be at the mercy of the state, and I for one, am not prepared to let police and prosecutors decide my freedom. A good defense can serve as motivation for police to perform the vital role they play in protecting us while upholding our rights.

[Maestro]

forget the debate, the video tells you all you need to know, the single point the lawyer made that convinced me when I first saw thoses video is the government has so many laws these day that you do not know how many laws you may have broken with simple comment which you thought were totally innocent and now you're in trouble.

Remember ignorance of the law is no defense the government and courts expect you to know ever law that exist and to know whether you are violated them or not.

So never ever admit to any thing or talk to the officer. Most people loose in court because of their own words, nothing the officer or anyone else ever did to prove your guilt.

[mechanixhorseman]

Originally Posted by Rustler

I think the larger point which the above post misses is that it's often not a question of right and wrong. In the OPs original scenario, who hit who? Maybe the person backing up didn't look carefully enough and at the same time maybe the other driver was going too fast and didn't stop even though he saw the other car backing up (in my state all drivers have a duty to avoid accidents, whether they have the right of way or not). Right and wrong can be more a question of interpretation than fact, and making hasty and ill concieved statements immediately after an accident is a good way to find yourself holding the short straw despite the fact that the other driver may share all or part of the fault.

Mechanixhorseman, you're disparaging comments about defense attorneys betray your ignorance of their vital role in the very justice system which you purport to uphold. (on a side note, I think it's scary to think that a detective who is charged with reading someone their miranda rights would consider remaining silent to be "working the system.") Without a vigorous defense we would all be at the mercy of the state, and I for one, am not prepared to let police and prosecutors decide my freedom. A good defense can serve as motivation for police to perform the vital role they play in protecting us while upholding our rights.

Again, my point wasn't that invoking your rights was "working the system" but rather that trying to get away with it after knowing fully that you are at guilt.

I know exactly what defense attorneys role is, but if you did what I do you would have a healthy hate for them too. The system is designed to give criminals the benefit of the doubt because it is better to let a guilty man go free than put an innocent man in jail in the eyes of the justice system. I don't disagree with that. However, in order to do that prosecutors are always underpaid and underexperienced and made to look like jackasses by the rockstar defense lawyers who let murderers and rapists go free. A lot of DA's are just doing their job, but a good majority of them get off on setting criminals free. Spend a day in my shoes, watch a piece of evidence that links a rapist to a victim get thrown out because someone dicked up the paperwork on it get thrown out, and the suspect go free, and you'll see exactly why I hate DA's.

Its how the system is designed to work, and although it does work the way it is intended to, it isn't sexy.

[fredwlau]

Originally Posted by mechanixhorseman

Again, my point wasn't that invoking your rights was "working the system" but rather that trying to get away with it after knowing fully that you are at guilt.

I know exactly what defense attorneys role is, but if you did what I do you would have a healthy hate for them too. The system is designed to give criminals the benefit of the doubt because it is better to let a guilty man go free than put an innocent man in jail in the eyes of the justice system. I don't disagree with that. However, in order to do that prosecutors are always underpaid and underexperienced and made to look like jackasses by the rockstar defense lawyers who let murderers and rapists go free. A lot of DA's are just doing their job, but a good majority of them get off on setting criminals free. Spend a day in my shoes, watch a piece of evidence that links a rapist to a victim get thrown out because someone dicked up the paperwork on it get thrown out, and the suspect go free, and you'll see exactly why I hate DA's.

Its how the system is designed to work, and although it does work the way it is intended to, it isn't sexy.

What about the district attorneys who consciously lie and bury evidence just so they can get a conviction? What about police officers who make the news for savagely beating people and all they receive is a paid suspension followed by an INTERNAL investigation. I know that if I was in a situation where I had to choose between exercising the 5th amendment or not, I would exercise it solely because I don't trust the judicial system. I wouldn't put it past any detective, investigator, district attorney, or police officer, to blatantly lie to the judge, jury, and the public, just so they can score a conviction and eventually a promotion.

Law enforcement should be held to a higher standard than the average citizen. Yes, I'd rather EVERY SINGLE criminal go free then to see one district attorney maliciously LIE just to get a conviction. Criminals will be criminals, and if they go free, they will commit a crime again and the judicial system has another chance to put them away. The ball rolls both ways, when I see a significant change in the way law enforcement are held to their own laws, then maybe I can accept that certain defense attorneys have immoral practices.

As for the accident that OP was discussing, it seems to me that either no one was at fault or both parties were at fault, in which case the police should f*ck off rather than trying to make things complicated. Let the insurance companies battle it out, they need to earn their money some way. People posting here are trying to say that the person backing up most likely WAS NOT at fault or simply did not realize they were at fault, no need for the police to make any judgment.

[stickypaws]

Yep, you should always say nothing and remain silent when being suspected for any wrongdoing. But just be aware that by doing so it doesn't mean a cop won't harass you even more and maybe even beat you up (like here in LA with the sometimes overzealous LAPD.) Cops can get angry if you don't bend over backwards, so get ready for the cop to certainly not be a Mr. Nice Guy. And if you're speeding you have to make the decision if being nice and talkative might actually get you out of a ticket or not. If you shut up and play law student, you'll definitely get the ticket.

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[majin ssj eric]

Very informative thread. The best policy is to stay silent. Of course for minor traffic violations (like speeding) you have to judge for yourself whether you may or may not be able to talk your way out of a ticket. I will usually give my story for a traffic violation and if they ticket me, I just pay it. For a more serious offense I would say nothing until contacting my lawyer....

[fatjoez]

cool videos, nice lecture

[Kerosene Hat]

Haha, "I'll tell you what you can search..."

[Maestro]

I'll give you another reason not to talk to the police even for a minor traffic stop. Talking to them and saying the wrong thing unknowingly can give them probably cause or reasonable suspicion and they may want to search your car and you may think you are being nice and have nothing to hide, but can you say that about everyone else who has been in your car including the person who parked your car at the restaurant last night.

Police and society has change and police are out to make an example of people.