[carve]

OK...I have to correct myself here.

The volt has a 120 kw electric motor, and a 57 kw generator.

After the battery has discharged to 25%, the job of the generator is to keep it between 25 and 30% state of charge. So it does charge the battery...a little. I can't find the power level in range extended mode. However, if 25% is the "floor", when you're down to 25% I'd expect you'd have less than half the power you normally due- <57kw. How much you'd have at 30% state of charge, I don't know.

So...the good things here are the engine can operate at a more steady state, and power is not necessarily limited to what the generator can provide- 57kw.

[Los Angeles]

500 Mpg??!!

[Artmasterx]

If the car gets 230 mpg and only have a maximum range of ~300 miles, the that must mean the gas tank of the car is only 1.3 gallons!

With a normal gas tank size of 12 gallons, that would be a range of 2760 miles, all the way across the US!!

Why didn't GM give us a normal size gas tank?

I hope you caught my sarcasm... GM is full of shit and needs to qualify these rediculous statements with the assumptions.

What they need to do is run the city EPA test until the car runs out of charge and fuel, and then give us the MPG. Do the same with highway.

It will still get good mileage, but it is very deceptive... shame, shame.

Just think how many pissed of people they will have when the sell cars to people thinking they will get 230 mpg and actually get 60 mpg when they go on a trip...

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Artmasterx

If the car gets 230 mpg and only have a maximum range of ~300 miles, the that must mean the gas tank of the car is only 1.3 gallons!

With a normal gas tank size of 12 gallons, that would be a range of 2760 miles, all the way across the US!!

Why didn't GM give us a normal size gas tank?

I hope you caught my sarcasm... GM is full of shit and needs to qualify these rediculous statements with the assumptions.

What they need to do is run the city EPA test until the car runs out of charge and fuel, and then give us the MPG. Do the same with highway.

It will still get good mileage, but it is very deceptive... shame, shame.

Just think how many pissed of people they will have when the sell cars to people thinking they will get 230 mpg and actually get 60 mpg when they go on a trip...

The way GM tested the Volt is a draft of what the EPA will use to test vehicles like the Volt. It isn't GM being sly, it is just the EPA not knowing how to test a vehicle like the Volt.

[lyndon_h]

So, $2.75 every 100 miles is the total cost of operation? If this is correct, GM has a huge winner on their hand.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by lyndon_h

So, $2.75 every 100 miles is the total cost of operation? If this is correct, GM has a huge winner on their hand.

If you don't use any gasoline. It all depends on how your electric company charges, etc.

[carve]

Originally Posted by Artmasterx

What they need to do is run the city EPA test until the car runs out of charge and fuel, and then give us the MPG. Do the same with highway.

It will still get good mileage, but it is very deceptive... shame, shame.

That's kind of what they're doing...but they include the miles it took to run down the battery. The city cycle test is 11 miles, and it took .22 gallons. Then they added the 40 electric miles on top of that. 51/.22 = 230 mpg

The BS is, the 11 miles is completely ARBITRARY. If the battery could make it go 100 miles first, they'd call it 528 mpg. If the EPA test were 30 miles the mpg would drop to 159 mpg. If the test were only one mile, it'd be rated at 2050 mpg! In every other car, the fact that the test is 11 miles doesn't affect anything at all- it'll get the same mpg until the tank runs dry. It's a completely meaningless number. Since they trying to play it off as a range extended EV instead of a hybrid, here are the relevent numbers...

ELECTRIC RANGE, city/hwy. Just run the city and highway tests until the generator kicks on. There's your range.
Electric efficiency: kwh/100 mi. Test as above, and then see how much electricity it takes to recharge. There's your energy cost
MPG city/hwy: just like they do now. To advertise mpg, the car must be powered by liquid fuel. YOU CAN'T DIVIDE BY ZERO, even for part of the test. The battery needs to finish this test with the same amount of energy in the battery as when it started. Then you know how fuel efficient it is after the battery is depleted- an actual useful piece of information.

230mpg is a completely irrelevent, useless number for anybody whose commute is not exactly 51 miles.

For the Record, I once heard if a car like a Honda Civic had an engine with ideal, max theoretically possible for operating temperature, carnot efficiency it'd get something like 500 mpg. That's a perfect, frictionless engine where the exhaust comes out at room temperature, all it's heat having been extracted. So...that is the impossible to ever reach, especially in a car-sized package, theoretical upper limit for an ICE powered car with contemporary weight, aerodynamics, and rolling resistance. Use that to calibrate your bullshitdetectors.

[MrRoboto]

Believe it when I see it.

[atr_hugo]

GM had a brief presser in the Swissotel prior to the start of the Chicago Auto Show this year. Here's what I wrote and posted on the BMW CCA forum. Specifications may have changed since early February. I'll see if I can get the pix up too.

++++

GM held a briefing this afternoon to discuss the Volt and and unveil the collaborative effort of Bose and Goodyear. (And they had a spread of food of course.)

Bose has optimized sound system components, reducing size by 30%, weight by 40% and electrical efficiency by 50%. Use of a switching amplifier, specially designed neodymium magnets in the speakers and space saving efforts allowed these benefits. They did not demonstrate the system's sound capabilities, just it's efficiencies.

The Volt is headed to production in late 2010. Goodyear has developed what they call 'functional polymers' which produce tighter chemical bonds with less clumping of silica than previously available. This reduces rolling resistance. The technology produces a tire with what they claim are decent handling characteristics and yet significantly improved rolling resistance. They did have an interesting science fair like demonstration showing that this technology is the next best thing to 'flubber'. This technology is good for about one mile of the Volt's 40 mile - strictly battery - range.

Speaking of Volt's batteries; they are lithium ion tech, built by LG. But what is truly of interest is the battery management technology. One key aspect that is strictly managed is temperature. The battery pack is in a 'T' shape longitudinally running for the IP – through center console, with the transverse section under the rear seats. Batteries perform best when their temperatures are kept within tight parameters. The physical encapsulation of the battery elements allow them to be heated or cooled as necessary across the bulk of their surface. When pressed, Frank Weber of GM, refused to get into specific details citing proprietary concerns. He did mention that if the car is left for the weekend in the Walgreen's parking lot in Minot, ND, the gas engine (that serves as a generator) would fire up and bring the batteries up into their temperature rang. There has a been a great deal of development in the physical cases and software for battery management. The batteries are the enabling technology of the Volt.

The engine is a 1.4L that is based on an existing GM powerplant. However over 90% of the components are specific to the Volt application. It is not a true Otto or Atkinson cycle engine, but it does do some ippsy-dipsies with valve timing. It never charges the batteries, however. Otherwise would it truly be an electric car? When the engine takes over, beyond the 40 mile pure battery propulsion range of the Volt, it merely acts as generator supplying electricity to the motor. There is a small fuel tank on-board and it can be refueled on regular gasoline.

Recharging the batteries takes under 4 hours with a 240 VAC outlet, under 8 hours with a 110 VAC outlet. In Europe the Volt is rated at using 1.6L per 100km. The EPA has yet to determine how mileage ratings will be applied to the Volt.


So is this the future? It may be the start of the future, 'fun to drive' was mentioned, but I'll reserve judgment until I have a chance to drive one.

Two pic: Goodyear's Science Fair Project; Volt Battery Pack

[atr_hugo]

If my math is correct that 1.6L per 100km works out to about 148 MPG.

[Vudoo4u2]

I did the math...and the prius is cheaper to operate...

here goes (in as basic of terms as I can put it):

lets assume a 300 mile trip---and gas costs $3/gal---and elec costs .11/kwh

prius: ~50 mpg
300/50=6 gallons=6*3=18 dollars to run

volt: ~230 mpg, but with battery that needs to be charged
300/230=1.3 gallons=3.9 dollars to run gas portion
300 miles @ ~50 kwh/100 miles (I know they say it can work with as LOW as 25 kwh per 100 miles, but if youre looking to run the full distance, you need a full charge, so lets assume 50 kwh/100 to be safe) =150 kwh total * .11=16.5 dollars
3.9+16.5=20.4 dollars to run

so for the same 300 mile period...the prius cost you 18 dollars, and the volt cost you 20.4

except the prius you didnt have to plug in and let charge for 7 hours, and the volt you had to have sit there overnight or 1/3 of your day charging...cant imagien you have any last minute trips planned ever...

so while I realize this is not the EPA or GMs fault...our methods for thinking about fuel efficiency for cars is being taken advantage of by a very smart person or team @ GM.

They sat there and thought to themselves, were behind in this development, what can we do? They dont have self charging self sustaining battery systems like honda + toyota have developed (a large dropdown from some F1 systems)...so they did what they could. they made a car that runs off a battery that loses its charge and needs you to plug it in, and played on the ratio of electric/gas to be able to use the EPAs lag in standards change, to bring you an advertisement, of 230 mpg...which tells the average person "hey! this is cheap!"...but in reality....it costs you more than the gas equivalent

the only upside I see, is moving away from oil usage, but its going to cost us, not be cheaper like theyre trying to put out there. And before we start gettnig all excited abotu running pure electric cars, consider the cost of electricity, and how much its going to go up, when we realize we dont have enough power plants to support the required power we will eventually want...and then youll see why oil has been the standard for a while...even if we hate opec

until nuclear fusion hits the tape in functioning sustainable form...this idea is going to keep things amusing from an advertising perspective.

who wants to charge their car every day for 7 hours!? and pay 13% more than a prius, or equiv car, when the prius is already an expensive version of the gasoline corolla...

oh boy

wanted to add...if persay, you dont pay .11 /kwh...or quantity demanded for electricity goes up...and they raise elec costs to be .22/kwh (because reality says..we dont have enough power for this...so supply doesnt change, but quantity demanded does..so price must go up)...at a rate of .22/kwh...its 36.9 dollars to run the volt for 300 miles, and 18 for the prius...so now its double the cost of the gasoline/hybrid prius...and dont get me started on the fact that the prius is a corolla +6000 dollars...so youve prepaid your gas making the prius more expensive to run than the corolla in the long run.

how about paying double to run your car but having a hard on because youre saving the environment one californian home blackout at a time?

/rant

[wahoo]

Originally Posted by Vudoo4u2

I did the math...and the prius is cheaper to operate...

here goes (in as basic of terms as I can put it):

lets assume a 300 mile trip---and gas costs $3/gal---and elec costs .11/kwh

prius: ~50 mpg
300/50=6 gallons=6*3=18 dollars to run

volt: ~230 mpg, but with battery that needs to be charged
300/230=1.3 gallons=3.9 dollars to run gas portion
300 miles @ ~50 kwh/100 miles (I know they say it can work with as LOW as 25 kwh per 100 miles, but if youre looking to run the full distance, you need a full charge, so lets assume 50 kwh/100 to be safe) =150 kwh total * .11=16.5 dollars
3.9+16.5=20.4 dollars to run

so for the same 300 mile period...the prius cost you 18 dollars, and the volt cost you 20.4
/rant

Not that I'm a Volt fan but am I missing something?? $16.5 assumes running the entire 300 on electricity but its not. It takes .5kwh/mileX230miles=126kwh for an entire 'tank' so 126kwh*.11=$13.86 worth of electricity for the entire 230miles. IF it ran entirely on electricity. Do we add the cost of 1.3gallons of gas as well? If so, then the Prius is cheaper to operate - just a lot uglier.

Using a similar 230mile trip for the Prius with 50mpg you will use 4.6 gallons of gas. Assuming $2.75/gallon=$12.65 $3.01/gallon is the break even point for operational cost of the Prius vs.

Regardless of its initial operating cost, as the vehicles become more and more road tested we will see greater efficiencies. The Prius is still a turd in my book but the tech behind the new car is interesting.

15years from now we might actually have hi-po electric sports cars. I'm interested to see what BMW comes up with.

[Vudoo4u2]

Originally Posted by wahoo

Not that I'm a Volt fan but your calculation for the $ to run the volt assumes running the entire 300miles on the cost of electricity...or am I missing something??

Regardless of its initial operating cost, as the vehicles become more and more road tested we will see greater efficiencies. The Prius is still a turd in my book but the tech behind the new car is interesting.

15years from now we might actually have hipo electric sports cars. I'm interested to see what BMW comes up with.

my calculation assumes you must use the electric engine + gasoline for the 300 mile trip (same as GM assumed)..since you have to run both of them for the 300 miles...so I added the gas + electricity cost...since 230 mpg is the gas efficiency rating, you have to add the electricity efficiency also, which for a 300 mile trip would be ~50 kwh/100 miles...so 150 kwh total to run that distance with the gas engine using 1.3 gallons simultaneously.

I foresee local electric plug in fillups for .22 dollars/kwh....which is double the @ home rate of .11/kwh avg...so I figure, itll cost you double to run a volt vs a prius (convenience is never cheap...)

and I dont love the prius...I merely made the comparison b/c its a viable alternative to the volt, that uses hybrid technology slightly differently (self recharging, vs manual recharging)

I thought to myself...theres no way GM leapfrogged honda/toyota in hybrid technology overnight...and I was correct

[lib]

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradv...d-230-mpg.html

EPA Applauds GM Effort, but Says It Cannot Confirm Volt's Claimed 230 MPG

In response to a request from Green Car Advisor seeking clarification and confirmation of General Motors' claim that the Chevrolet Volt extended-range hybrid achieves 230 miles per gallon in city driving using tentative EPA test technology, the agency issued the following statement:

"EPA has not tested a Chevy Volt and therefore cannot confirm the fuel economy values claimed by GM. EPA does applaud GM's commitment to designing and building the car of the future - an American-made car that will save families money, significantly reduce our dependence on foreign oil and create good-paying American jobs. We're proud to see American companies and American workers leading the world in the clean energy innovations that will shape the 21st century economy."

We at Green Car Advisor cannot be certain, but we strongly suspect that the person who wrote that statement was waving an American flag with one hand and holding a humongous slice of apple pie in the other. If the writer had used American in the statement just one more time, he or she surely would have qualified for some type of prize.

But seriously, we're still trying to figure out exactly how GM came to conclude that the Volt will get 230 mpg in city driving. And we're wondering what the automaker will say or do when initial Volt buyers discover - probably, but we're hoping we're wrong - that they aren't achieving anywhere near 230 mpg in city.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Vudoo4u2

my calculation assumes you must use the electric engine + gasoline for the 300 mile trip (same as GM assumed)..since you have to run both of them for the 300 miles...so I added the gas + electricity cost...since 230 mpg is the gas efficiency rating, you have to add the electricity efficiency also, which for a 300 mile trip would be ~50 kwh/100 miles...so 150 kwh total to run that distance with the gas engine using 1.3 gallons simultaneously.

I foresee local electric plug in fillups for .22 dollars/kwh....which is double the @ home rate of .11/kwh avg...so I figure, itll cost you double to run a volt vs a prius (convenience is never cheap...)

and I dont love the prius...I merely made the comparison b/c its a viable alternative to the volt, that uses hybrid technology slightly differently (self recharging, vs manual recharging)

I thought to myself...theres no way GM leapfrogged honda/toyota in hybrid technology overnight...and I was correct

The Volt's hybrid system is entirely different then Synergy Drive. The Volt is a series hybrid while the Prius is a parallel-series hybrid. With the Volt, the electric motor drives the wheels 100% of the time. It is just a matter of where the electricity is coming from( the ICE generator or the Lithium battery). Much like a train where the diesels run at their peak efficiency powering a generator that powers the electric motors in the wheels.

Where the Prius has the electric motor do all the work up to a certain speed, work with the ICE to propel the vehicle, or the ICE does all the work...... Either way, the ICE is connected to the wheels.

Originally Posted by lib

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradv...d-230-mpg.html

No duh. This wasn't an official EPA test. It was GM using the EPA's method of testing vehicles like the Volt in their own test. Which is nothing new. All manufactures do their own MPG testing using the EPA methods.

[wahoo]

GM says, "The EPA methodology uses kilowatt hours per 100 miles traveled to define the electrical efficiency of plug-ins. Applying EPA's methodology, GM expects the Volt to consume as little as 25 kilowatt hours per 100 miles in city driving. At the U.S. average cost of electricity (approximately 11 cents per kWh), a typical Volt driver would pay about $2.75 for electricity to travel 100 miles, or less than 3 cents per mile."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...#ixzz0NwACgjO3

If we take GM's word at face value for operational cost then the cost will be $6.9.

[wahoo]

Originally Posted by Vudoo4u2

my calculation assumes you must use the electric engine + gasoline for the 300 mile trip (same as GM assumed)..since you have to run both of them for the 300 miles...so I added the gas + electricity cost...since 230 mpg is the gas efficiency rating, you have to add the electricity efficiency also, which for a 300 mile trip would be ~50 kwh/100 miles...so 150 kwh total to run that distance with the gas engine using 1.3 gallons simultaneously.

I foresee local electric plug in fillups for .22 dollars/kwh....which is double the @ home rate of .11/kwh avg...so I figure, itll cost you double to run a volt vs a prius (convenience is never cheap...)

and I dont love the prius...I merely made the comparison b/c its a viable alternative to the volt, that uses hybrid technology slightly differently (self recharging, vs manual recharging)

I thought to myself...theres no way GM leapfrogged honda/toyota in hybrid technology overnight...and I was correct

Key was using them simultaneously - now I see where your numbers came from.

[wahoo]

Green Car Advisor is a bunch of wankers. If the Volt gets 125mpg will they say its a success or simply not enough??

I drive to and from work and put less than 5k a year on my car. I have a 10yo car with 93k. The Volt makes 'sense' for someone like me but I like the dynamics and sensory feel of driving a gasoline powered engine. Call me callous but until they make something 'fun' and electric I'll stick to my paid for e46. More than likely I'll get an e90 regardless.

[Vudoo4u2]

Originally Posted by wahoo

Key was using them simultaneously - now I see where your numbers came from.

and we both know, when GM says they should be able to achieve 25 kWh/100 miles...thats an "at best" figure, not including the charge and sustained power (which is higher) to maintain a 300 mile trip...so I assumed 50 kWh/100 miles average over a 300 mile trip...under normal usage

even if im being mean, and 25 turns out to be a constant situation, rest assured, the natl avg for electricity will not remain .11/kWh long...and if you fill up remotely (say at a gas station with a plug), theyll charge you a premium, so itd be .22/KwH...which makes my calculation the same...

either way, GM did some fancy footwork to make a good advertisement and I applaud their effort to sneak in

but come on

GM surpassing honda/toyota in *electric hybrid technology in a period of 1 month is as logical as clammoring for all corporate ceo pay to be lower, while saying that you want every $55/hour UAW worker to be employed as well ($55/hour is the "lowered" base pay for a UAW member)

[lib]

Originally Posted by quagmire

No duh. This wasn't an official EPA test.

IMO the interesting part of that link isn't that it wasn't an EPA test. The interesting part is that at least one other source is questioning the number and the EPA is commenting on it.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Vudoo4u2

GM surpassing honda/toyota in fuelcell technology in a period of 1 month is as logical as clammoring for all corporate ceo pay to be lower, while saying that you want every $55/hour UAW worker to be employed as well ($55/hour is the "lowered" base pay for a UAW member)

Fuel cells relate to hydrogen powered cars. And I haven't even heard about Toyota's efforts. Only GM and Honda have actual fuel cells on the road right now. The FCX Clarity and the Equinox Fuel Cell( using GM's older Gen IV system). Both in consumers hands for limited testing. Right now it appears Honda is 1st and GM in 2nd when it comes to fuel cell tech. And Voltec was designed to also use fuel cells to power the car.

[Vudoo4u2]

Originally Posted by quagmire

Fuel cells relate to hydrogen powered cars. And I haven't even heard about Toyota's efforts. Only GM and Honda have actual fuel cells on the road right now. The FCX Clarity and the Equinox Fuel Cell( using GM's older Gen IV system). Both in consumers hands for limited testing. Right now it appears Honda is 1st and GM in 2nd when it comes to fuel cell tech. And Voltec was designed to also use fuel cells to power the car.

typo, hybrid electric technology...fixed in orig post