[MastaMind]

No arguments here! :wink:

[Pirate]

Now the bailout estimate per Dr. Mark Zandi, is between 75 to 125 billion dollars.
Did you know these companies are suing the goverment they are asking funds from?
In the midst of this financial crisis, it will be nearly impossible for these companies to sell enough vehicles to drive their way out of this ditch.
We shall see...

[sethchan]

Originally Posted by emm3tt

I hope that the primary reason listed is the bad contracts signed with the union. The union has absolutely run the big 3 into the ground.

Did the union decide what kind of cars to build? Did the union design them to get crummy gas mileage? Did the union design them to fall apart? Did the union lobby against national health insurance? Did the union set up a dealer network with obnoxious, high-pressure salespeople?

Blaming Detroit's problems on the unions is nothing more than a worthless GOP/Rush Limbaugh talking point.

[ptack]

Don't worry, there's plenty of blame for everyone. Both the union and the management still act like it's 1958. I thnk a majority of Americans just say "a pox on both your houses".

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by sethchan

Did the union decide what kind of cars to build? Did the union design them to get crummy gas mileage? Did the union design them to fall apart? Did the union lobby against national health insurance? Did the union set up a dealer network with obnoxious, high-pressure salespeople?
.

The union didn't do all that.

What they DID do is sap funds that could have been used for R&D through higher than average wages and absurd benefits, fight automation to increase productivity, sandbag production to flex their muscles, and fight management on every little change to the point where it made things not worth doing.


There are a lot more people against National Health care than just union workers.

Don't get me wrong. Management bears the lions share of the blame in this situation for ever letting the labor costs get this far out of control, but to say that the union didn't have a hand in the problems simply doesn't reflect reality.

[sethchan]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

The union didn't do all that.

What they DID do is sap funds that could have been used for R&D through higher than average wages and absurd benefits, fight automation to increase productivity, sandbag production to flex their muscles, and fight management on every little change to the point where it made things not worth doing.


There are a lot more people against National Health care than just union workers.

Don't get me wrong. Management bears the lions share of the blame in this situation for ever letting the labor costs get this far out of control, but to say that the union didn't have a hand in the problems simply doesn't reflect reality.

Or don't talk to me about "reality." As for sapping funds that could have been used for R&D, let's talk about executive compensation, corporate jets, executive dining rooms, shareholder dividends and colossal blunders in product mix first.

Fighting management on "every little change"? Straight out of Rush Limbaugh. Hasn't been true for decades.

Autoworkers were, like most workers in the post-war era, earning enough to be middle class. That's it. Middle class, ordinary families. The backbone of America. And it is hard, hard work. Hard work that, at the end of every single working day delivers value to the company, something you cannot say about the past 40 years of management.

Real value comes from two places: the assembly line and, in a company with good designers, from the design teams. The rest is window dressing.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by sethchan

Or don't talk to me about "reality." As for sapping funds that could have been used for R&D, let's talk about executive compensation, corporate jets, executive dining rooms, shareholder dividends and colossal blunders in product mix first.

Fighting management on "every little change"? Straight out of Rush Limbaugh. Hasn't been true for decades.

Autoworkers were, like most workers in the post-war era, earning enough to be middle class. That's it. Middle class, ordinary families. The backbone of America. And it is hard, hard work. Hard work that, at the end of every single working day delivers value to the company, something you cannot say about the past 40 years of management.

Real value comes from two places: the assembly line and, in a company with good designers, from the design teams. The rest is window dressing.

Absurd benefits? How about ZERO medical expenses? No co-pays, NOTHING. How about FREE Viagra? How about 74 minutes of breaks in an 8 hour shift?

Rush Limbaugh?! Get real!

When was the last time you were in a UAW plant? I spent all day today in one, and do about 2 weeks out of every month. I'm not sitting on the sideline making these statements, I'm telling you EXACTLY what's happening on the factory floor RIGHT NOW. Don't even pretend to know more about what the Union does than I do. I deal with them on a daily basis.

All the management salary and perks are a small drop in a large bucket when compared to the wages and benefits of Union members. Also, if you'd bother to read my post, I stated VERY clearly that the union wasn't the only problem, but to pretend it's not a major piece of the puzzle is just absurd.

Come and talk to me again when you've spent 14 hours fighting the Union rep while 150 line workers are idled over a broken machine they won't let you repair.

[rcracer_tx]

This has been foreseeable for a long time. More and more people are realizing that imports are better in every aspect and that American cars are an inferior product in a competitive market. The Union workers have raped and pillaged the company claiming that they deserve ridiculous pay and benefits for a low level job. As far as i am concerned, the workers deserve to lose a job for trying to drain every penny of the company they work for. Let them chapter eleven or seven. There is no reason to bail companies out that has no plan for the future.

Jeremyc74, It sounds like you are smart enough to realize that the companies your company works for is going belly up and you will be prepared to get a new job. Mmart thinking as its probably going to happen.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by rcracer_tx

Jeremyc74, It sounds like you are smart enough to realize that the companies your company works for is going belly up and you will be prepared to get a new job. Mmart thinking as its probably going to happen.

Whether you think the bailout is right or wrong, the consiquences of not doing it are greater than you can imagine, and will be far more expensive than what the government will need to loan the automakers to get them moving in the right direction.

The loss of 3 Million good paying jobs with unemployment as high as it is right now will have devestating effects on all sectors of our economy. You will see widespread wage reductions, increased crime rates, and huge amounts of money being paid out in benefits and retraining programs.

I will not accept the notion that it is impossible for an American company to manufacture good cars. The Big 3 are suffering from years of mismanagement by short sighted people who were concerned more about their stock value than the long term health of the company. That leadership is still in place, especially at Ford, and the new leadership hasn't really been given a chance to take effect.

[sethchan]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Absurd benefits? How about ZERO medical expenses? No co-pays, NOTHING. How about FREE Viagra? How about 74 minutes of breaks in an 8 hour shift?

Rush Limbaugh?! Get real!

When was the last time you were in a UAW plant? I spent all day today in one, and do about 2 weeks out of every month. I'm not sitting on the sideline making these statements, I'm telling you EXACTLY what's happening on the factory floor RIGHT NOW. Don't even pretend to know more about what the Union does than I do. I deal with them on a daily basis.

All the management salary and perks are a small drop in a large bucket when compared to the wages and benefits of Union members. Also, if you'd bother to read my post, I stated VERY clearly that the union wasn't the only problem, but to pretend it's not a major piece of the puzzle is just absurd.

Come and talk to me again when you've spent 14 hours fighting the Union rep while 150 line workers are idled over a broken machine they won't let you repair.

You could be anyone. You could be who you say you are, but there's no way to tell. Either way, this is my response:

THE TRAGEDY OF THE AMERICAN AUTOMOBILE INDUSTRY
A Play in Three Acts

Dramatis Personae

BIG THREE, a manufacturer of automobiles
UAW, Big Three's employee
MITT ROMNEY, an idiot

ACT ONE

BIG THREE: I have plans to build automobiles, but I need labor to do so!

UAW: I will labor for you if you will pay me $40 per hour.

BIG THREE: I will not pay you $40 per hour.

UAW: But I need to save for my inevitable retirement, and any health
concerns that may arise.

BIG THREE: I will pay you $30 per hour, plus a generous pension of
guaranteed payments and health care upon your retirement.

UAW: Then I agree to work for you!

ACT TWO

UAW: I am building cars for you, as I have promised to do!

BIG THREE: I am designing terrible cars that few people want to buy!
Also, rather than save for UAW's inevitable retirement when I
will have to pay him the generous pension of guaranteed
payments and health care that I promised, I am spending that
money under the dubious assumption that my future revenues
will be sufficient to meet those obligations.

ACT THREE

UAW: I have fulfilled my end of the deal by building the automobiles
that you have asked me to build.

BIG THREE: Oh no! I am undone! My automobiles are no longer competitive
due to my years of poor planning and poor judgment!

MITT ROMNEY: This is all UAWs fault!

SOURCE: <URL: http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=14260 >

Could UAW workers be more productive? Probably. Are they productive enough if the company were run decently? probably.

The Japanese yen appreciated from 249 to the dollar in early 1985 to 130 to the dollar in early 1988. Yet Japanese automakers gained market share in the U.S. during that period. And that's in a system of lifetime employment (at that time) for even the deadest of dead wood employees -- and the world's highest life expectancy.

Or look at German union work rules. The U.S. automakers have not had tougher unions to deal with than any other car company. Sure, there's Japanese production in the South, but U.S. car companies have not, by and large, been competing against companies that operate in some sort of union-free paradise. And when they have competed against companies with even stronger unions, they still have lost market share. So your logic just doesn't hold.

Sorry about the Rush Limbaugh jab, though. It was uncalled for.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by sethchan

You could be anyone. You could be who you say you are, but there's no way to tell. Either way, this is my response:

.

I'm exactly who I say I am. I have no reason to lie. You're sitting in the stands trying to coach a game you've never played, while I'm standing in the middle of the field calling it as it is.

Originally Posted by sethchan

Could UAW workers be more productive? Probably. Are they productive enough if the company were run decently? probably.



The Japanese yen appreciated from 249 to the dollar in early 1985 to 130 to the dollar in early 1988. Yet Japanese automakers gained market share in the U.S. during that period. And that's in a system of lifetime employment (at that time) for even the deadest of dead wood employees -- and the world's highest life expectancy.

Or look at German union work rules. The U.S. automakers have not had tougher unions to deal with than any other car company. Sure, there's Japanese production in the South, but U.S. car companies have not, by and large, been competing against companies that operate in some sort of union-free paradise. And when they have competed against companies with even stronger unions, they still have lost market share. So your logic just doesn't hold.

Sorry about the Rush Limbaugh jab, though. It was uncalled for.

The rest of your insight really isn't worth a lot to me considering that you won't accept the very basic fact that the UAW works against the automakers on a daily basis. I'm not going to get into a discussion about productivity with someone who really has no real experience in the field.

[MadMan77]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

I'm exactly who I say I am. I have no reason to lie. You're sitting in the stands trying to coach a game you've never played, while I'm standing in the middle of the field calling it as it is.








The rest of your insight really isn't worth a lot to me considering that you won't accept the very basic fact that the UAW works against the automakers on a daily basis. I'm not going to get into a discussion about productivity with someone who really has no real experience in the field.

Wow! Talk about being owned.

To Sethcan: I am in the Air Force and see what the happens when 20,000 civil servants and their union are part of large scale maintenance. This is pale in comparison to the UAW and what jeremyc74 experiences on the production line. I think you should step back and let the man in the trenches (jeremyc74) tell you how it really is.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by MadMan77

Wow! Talk about being owned.
.

That really wasn't my intention, I just wanted to make it clear that I'm not someone just talking out of their ass. Those orange things you see are automated carts that move a dash assembly from station to station where the workers put various pieces on it. I wish I could take a better shot, but it might cause problems for me if the wrong person saw it.

A lot of the talk in the media right now about the Big 3's situation is a lot like the talk about the war, and all the armchair generals who think they know more than the officers on the ground (FYI, I was a Marine before I got this cushy engineering job, so I know what that's like as well). :smile:

[gio]

I should have bought an American car. It seems like I'm going to end up paying for one anyways, except I won't actually get a car. ($125 billion dollar bailout, lol).

[akak1997]

I've recently read that Big 3 employee gets pay $70 a hour. That's freaking nuts! You can get that job with high school or less education. It's probably very tough job, and you might die earlier with all the toxic crap they put in cars. But well, in this day and age, w/o good education, you're gonna get some really shitty job unless you're really smart or really good a football/basketball. I just don't see how ANY company can compete while paying its worker that much money. I'm not saying the Exec aren't the ones to blame, they must be freaking morons to even agree to pay that kinda wages to begin with.

I strongly disagree w/ the bail out, but what can we do, we elected a democrat. I'm sure this bail out will go thru, all these hearings blah blah are just for show.

[Pirate]

After the market closed today, (interesting timing) Pelosi announced during a news conference that 15 billion dollars was all they could loan to the Big 3. She used the word "risky" and said these companies had to prove they were viable before any new taxpayer money would be available. GM shares took a dive in after hours trading.

It seems to me neither the Republicans nor the Democrats are willing to go out on a limb for the Big 3. It's unpopular, with 65% of the population against it and they are probably seeing scary details of mismanagment etc...

At 10 pm CNBC will feature a program about this subject.

This is a learning experience for me. Hardly a pleasant one.

[MadMan77]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

That really wasn't my intention, I just wanted to make it clear that I'm not someone just talking out of their ass. Those orange things you see are automated carts that move a dash assembly from station to station where the workers put various pieces on it. I wish I could take a better shot, but it might cause problems for me if the wrong person saw it.

A lot of the talk in the media right now about the Big 3's situation is a lot like the talk about the war, and all the armchair generals who think they know more than the officers on the ground (FYI, I was a Marine before I got this cushy engineering job, so I know what that's like as well). :smile:

I know but I could not resist saying it. He was being such a naysayer and you provided proof of it as well as someone sitting down on the job.

[MadMan77]

Originally Posted by akak1997

I've recently read that Big 3 employee gets pay $70 a hour. That's freaking nuts! You can get that job with high school or less education. It's probably very tough job, and you might die earlier with all the toxic crap they put in cars. But well, in this day and age, w/o good education, you're gonna get some really shitty job unless you're really smart or really good a football/basketball. I just don't see how ANY company can compete while paying its worker that much money. I'm not saying the Exec aren't the ones to blame, they must be freaking morons to even agree to pay that kinda wages to begin with.

I strongly disagree w/ the bail out, but what can we do, we elected a democrat. I'm sure this bail out will go thru, all these hearings blah blah are just for show.

What the hell does the president-elect Obama have to do with this at all?

If a bailout does happen, they want it before the new year so how does this fall on any one else's shoulders but Bush's? (BTW I used the logic of it falling on the president's shoulder's since you did so with your Democrat poke above)

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by akak1997

I've recently read that Big 3 employee gets pay $70 a hour. That's freaking nuts! You can get that job with high school or less education. It's probably very tough job, and you might die earlier with all the toxic crap they put in cars. But well, in this day and age, w/o good education, you're gonna get some really shitty job unless you're really smart or really good a football/basketball. I just don't see how ANY company can compete while paying its worker that much money. I'm not saying the Exec aren't the ones to blame, they must be freaking morons to even agree to pay that kinda wages to begin with.

I strongly disagree w/ the bail out, but what can we do, we elected a democrat. I'm sure this bail out will go thru, all these hearings blah blah are just for show.

The $70/hr figure is complete BS. A UAW line worker tops out at $28/hr. Benefits work out to around $10/hr more. The $70/hr number includes all retired employees. It's not nearly indicative of what a line worker actually makes. I'm not supporting the UAW's cause, but there's no reason to allow the media to disort the facts.

[ARES45]

Originally Posted by akak1997

I've recently read that Big 3 employee gets pay $70 a hour. That's freaking nuts! You can get that job with high school or less education. It's probably very tough job, and you might die earlier with all the toxic crap they put in cars. But well, in this day and age, w/o good education, you're gonna get some really shitty job unless you're really smart or really good a football/basketball. I just don't see how ANY company can compete while paying its worker that much money. I'm not saying the Exec aren't the ones to blame, they must be freaking morons to even agree to pay that kinda wages to begin with.

I strongly disagree w/ the bail out, but what can we do, we elected a democrat. I'm sure this bail out will go thru, all these hearings blah blah are just for show.

I don't know if they make that much but they definitely make more than the workers down here working for hyandai. The big three put themselves in this situation, they should have told them years ago when they wanted ridiculous amounts of wages/benefits that they will be building plants elswhere and if any of the union workers want their jobs at a competitive wage they can meet them elsewhere. Greed seems to have torn the countries economy apart, whether it is the automakers making less than competitive vehicles, the autoworkers wanting more pay than their job is worth, people wanting houses they can't afford, lenders lending money to people who couldn't pay it back, etc.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by ARES45

I don't know if they make that much but they definitely make more than the workers down here working for hyandai. The big three put themselves in this situation, they should have told them years ago when they wanted ridiculous amounts of wages/benefits that they will be building plants elswhere and if any of the union workers want their jobs at a competitive wage they can meet them elsewhere. Greed seems to have torn the countries economy apart, whether it is the automakers making less than competitive vehicles, the autoworkers wanting more pay than their job is worth, people wanting houses they can't afford, lenders lending money to people who couldn't pay it back, etc.

So true...

[Pirate]

Big Three reach out to Canada for help.

``Detroit 3 seeking $6-billion from Canada`` per today`s Toronto Globe and Mail
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...etroit+bailout


``Canada, U.S. need to work together on auto bailout: analysts`` per The Toronto Sun
http://www.torontosun.com/money/2008/12/04/7632171.html