[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I've been to Croatia several times and that's too much driving in the time you have listed. Are you flying home from Dubovnik? Once you tell me the path home I can offer suggestions as your current itinerary, imho, is too much driving and not enough enjoying. plus I wouldn't do both Split and Dubrovnik, Split is seriously overrated.

ALso how are you getting from Cinque to Split?

Yeah flying home from Dubrovnik. We were originally considering simply staying in/near Dubrovnik, but we really want to check out Plitvice Lakes National Park, so Split seemed like a good mid-point to stay.

Plan was to take the train from Cinque down to Rome, then fly direct to Split.

So essentially something like this:

Flight Chicago to Rome
---3 nights in Rome

Train from Rome to Florence
---2 nights in Florence (1 day trip to Tuscany)

Train from Florence to Cinque Terre
---2 nights in Cinque Terre

Train from Cinque Terre to Rome
Flight from Rome to Split
---3 nights in Split (day trips to Zadar & Plitvice Lakes)

Drive from Split to Dubrovnik
---2 nights in Dubrovnik

Flight Dubrovnik back to Chicago

[Alfisti]

Dubrovnik to CHicago is direct?

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Watching The World Burn

So I'll jump in on Cinq de terre as we stayed in one of those towns for a night or two and did the hike between towns. Honestly, its nice, its small though, each town is fairly small. I don't see that as a bad thing, because I don't care about night life, and you probably don't either with two young kids lol.

I would do it if you can, just so you can experience it, but only if you are doing the hike, because honestly, that's really the draw for Cinq de Terre. The ability to walk between the five cities. Otherwise, you can get the same ambiance elsewhere to be honest. And Florence is honestly one of my favourite places we stayed at and I wasn't expecting that.

Here's the thing about Cinq de terre though - given the info you provided, if you have a stroller, I'm not sure you want to do the walk, because there is a decent number of steps involved in the hike between the towns. You can take transit between towns of course, but you aren't really seeing the views then. Just think about your situation and whether it makes sense with the family as young as it is. If the 3 year old was say 7, I'd say go for it - they can walk well at that time without being a royal pain in the butt, however, if you need a stroller....I don't know about that hike. People did have them on the trail, not going to lie, but be prepared to carry it up or down as needed.

That's good feedback. We do have the nanny to help out with the 3 year old. We might split the group up though. Some people take the trains between towns and some of us do the hike between them. Would also need to consider the heat since we're going in the dead of summer.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Dubrovnik to CHicago is direct?

No there's a 2 hour layover in Istanbul on both Chicago to Rome and then from Dubrovnik to Chicago. We're flying Turkish airlines - it was by far the cheapest option, and even more so considering they allow for free checked bags and carryons.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

No there's a 2 hour layover in Istanbul on both Chicago to Rome and then from Dubrovnik to Chicago. We're flying Turkish airlines - it was by far the cheapest option, and even more so considering they allow for free checked bags and carryons.

OK my 2c. Caveat I do these trips with family a lot, both to Australia and country hopping to Europe from Toronto.

That's a LOT of faffing about man, a LOT. Always go direct, price be damnded, not sure if you've bought tickets but a layover adds time, complication, lost bags and general headaches. If you are set on the layover then that means the rest of your trip just has to be less zig-zaggy.

Rome to Florence is fine but i'd head east not west for coastal Italy. Every step one way is a step back if you head in the opposite direction to the next destination. YOu're carting 5 people and luggage..... you gotta, gotta, gotta simplify your routing.

Not sure where to go east but you could cut through San Marino and find a beach, maybe Pesaro? There's a ferry from Ancona direct to Zadar.

Now issue here is, Plitvice is fucking amazing BUT it'll be hot as hell, crowded like crazy and it is rough, tough terrain to walk it. You're carrying that 3 year old at some point, it's inevitable. It's a tiring, full day out, this is not a "drop by and see it" experience. I would make it a day trip and stay in Zadar as it's a 90 minute drive, that's a full day out.

From there I see you want to head south, I'd skip Split if you're doing Dubrovnik, Split really is just the old town, there's no decent beaches etc, we were just there this past summer. I'd drive from Zadar to Omis, have lunch and swim there, it is beautiful. Then keep driving to Makarska and stay there a couple of nights, it's perfect for kids with excellent beaches and you can pay for the euro style pontoon jumping water park right on the beach. Lovely promenade etc. Then drive to Dubronik and after 2 days fly home.

Kids don't tolerate too many days looking at old buildings so Split and Dubrovnik makes no sense as their prime attraction is old buildings and the old town. Dubrovnik has far nicer beaches too though still not great tbh. And don't stay in old town Dubrovnik, it's a serious PITA as you have to walk in.

Other than the trip to Plitvice you're always travelling in one direction.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by machareus

In Rome you should visit Da Francesco. The pasta is mind blowing.

Nice! I'll add it to the list. It actually works out perfectly as it's on the walk back to our airbnb after our morning tour of the colosseum.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Sounds good. Let's see, I'll pitch the idea to the group. I've already convinced my wife to skip Venice since it's out of the way and I've heard it doesn't meet expectations - might be hard to convince her of Cinque Terre as well I do know she was hoping (as was I) to at least visit either Amalfi or Cinque Terre. If we did Amalfi it would have been at the expense of Florence (and we'd instead do Naples).

Monteriggioni looks really cool - I'm adding that to our list for our Tuscany day trip! Do you know the name of the Cornetti & Coffee place in Siena? Or do you mean all of the Cornetti & Coffee in that general area?

These are all great destinations. You cannot go wrong.

I want to share some advice with you that I didn't learn until much later in life. I know time and/or cost is usually a compromise when planning a trip, but sometimes we put constraints on ourselves that are not necessary.

Question: Is there any way at all you can "simply" add a few days to you trip?


In my case, I know I was guilty of preserving vacation time by rushing back sooner than wanted and missing things I wanted to see. Looking back, the world would not have ended if I'd extended a few more days. My business would have certainly gotten along without me. The added expense would have not been an issue. So, now I look back and wonder why I rushed.


If you have to be back, I understand. If you have options, consider taking them and enjoy all of it!

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

That's good feedback. We do have the nanny to help out with the 3 year old. We might split the group up though. Some people take the trains between towns and some of us do the hike between them. Would also need to consider the heat since we're going in the dead of summer.

...there are also boats you may take between the towns. I recommend walking. It's a great experience. But, the boat ride between the towns is really special. The views of the towns from the water are incredible.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

OK my 2c. Caveat I do these trips with family a lot, both to Australia and country hopping to Europe from Toronto.

That's a LOT of faffing about man, a LOT. Always go direct, price be damnded, not sure if you've bought tickets but a layover adds time, complication, lost bags and general headaches. If you are set on the layover then that means the rest of your trip just has to be less zig-zaggy.

Rome to Florence is fine but i'd head east not west for coastal Italy. Every step one way is a step back if you head in the opposite direction to the next destination. YOu're carting 5 people and luggage..... you gotta, gotta, gotta simplify your routing.

Not sure where to go east but you could cut through San Marino and find a beach, maybe Pesaro? There's a ferry from Ancona direct to Zadar.

Now issue here is, Plitvice is fucking amazing BUT it'll be hot as hell, crowded like crazy and it is rough, tough terrain to walk it. You're carrying that 3 year old at some point, it's inevitable. It's a tiring, full day out, this is not a "drop by and see it" experience. I would make it a day trip and stay in Zadar as it's a 90 minute drive, that's a full day out.

From there I see you want to head south, I'd skip Split if you're doing Dubrovnik, Split really is just the old town, there's no decent beaches etc, we were just there this past summer. I'd drive from Zadar to Omis, have lunch and swim there, it is beautiful. Then keep driving to Makarska and stay there a couple of nights, it's perfect for kids with excellent beaches and you can pay for the euro style pontoon jumping water park right on the beach. Lovely promenade etc. Then drive to Dubronik and after 2 days fly home.

Kids don't tolerate too many days looking at old buildings so Split and Dubrovnik makes no sense as their prime attraction is old buildings and the old town. Dubrovnik has far nicer beaches too though still not great tbh. And don't stay in old town Dubrovnik, it's a serious PITA as you have to walk in.

Other than the trip to Plitvice you're always travelling in one direction.

In terms of direct flights - I'm very used to having layovers. I've almost exclusively travelled to different asian countries (have mostly neglected most of Europe till now) and pretty much any destination in Asia requires a layover somewhere coming from the US. So they don't bother me at all - and 2 hours is very doable... The worst ones have been layovers which were very long, but not long enough to leave the airport (i.e. 5-6 hours layover in Narita airport near Tokyo) on my way to Malaysia.

So going East instead of West is intriguing... however I was looking and it seems like a ferry from Ancona to Zadar is a 9 hour ride. Would you still recommend that? The only backtracking we're really doing is heading back to Rome from Cinque Terre to catch a flight to Croatia. I wish I could just fly out of Pisa or Florence but there's unfortunately no direct flights from there and they all end up being super long ordeals.

As for Split - I suppose we're not too interested in Split itself - just figured it was a decent home base for a few days while we do day trips to Plitvice and Zadar. Split is cheap and easy to fly into from Rome (direct flights less than an hour long, $100), and it's a 2.5 hr drive to Plitvice (unlike Dubrovnik which is a solid 4.5 hours drive).

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

These are all great destinations. You cannot go wrong.

I want to share some advice with you that I didn't learn until much later in life. I know time and/or cost is usually a compromise when planning a trip, but sometimes we put constraints on ourselves that are not necessary.

Question: Is there any way at all you can "simply" add a few days to you trip?


In my case, I know I was guilty of preserving vacation time by rushing back sooner than wanted and missing things I wanted to see. Looking back, the world would not have ended if I'd extended a few more days. My business would have certainly gotten along without me. The added expense would have not been an issue. So, now I look back and wonder why I rushed.


If you have to be back, I understand. If you have options, consider taking them and enjoy all of it!

I can... my wife can't She's a physician so there really isn't any flexibility in her schedule. In fact the reason we're doing end of July and beginning of August is because the only way she can ever get that many days off in a row is if she combines the end of a month with the beginning of the next month. I on the other hand work remote anyway so I could be away for months if I wanted to.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

...there are also boats you may take between the towns. I recommend walking. It's a great experience. But, the boat ride between the towns is really special. The views of the towns from the water are incredible.

Awesome, didn't know that. That might be a great alternative for us to consider.

[chassis]

Because the home leg is via Istanbul, extend the trip by 2-3 days and see Istanbul! Cool city.

If flights aren’t booked yet check return leg from HR to Munich or Frankfurt. Lufthansa has good coverage in this area.

Check that the route to Dubrovnik by car can be done entirely in Croatia, or that the rental agency allows entry into Bosnia. When I was there a few years ago the entirely-within-HR route was not available so the only practical way from Split to Dubrovnik was via ferry. We skipped that.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by chassis

Because the home leg is via Istanbul, extend the trip by 2-3 days and see Istanbul! Cool city.

If flights aren’t booked yet check return leg from HR to Munich or Frankfurt. Lufthansa has good coverage in this area.

Check that the route to Dubrovnik by car can be done entirely in Croatia, or that the rental agency allows entry into Bosnia. When I was there a few years ago the entirely-within-HR route was not available so the only practical way from Split to Dubrovnik was via ferry. We skipped that.

Trust me I wish I could extend it. But we have to get back unfortunately as wife's job is inflexible.

From last I checked they had built a bridge which bypasses the border crossing into Bosnia and takes you straight to the south side of Croatia.

[Alfisti]

Holy shit 9 hours, yeah nah nix that idea. In saying that your door to door flying into SPlit is 3 hrs then you're driving all the way back up to Plitvice etc .... just makes no fucking sense, too much back tracking.

TBH I'd just not got to an Italian Beach, they are pretty shite tbh, which is why Croatia is so popular. Italian beaches tend to be sorta grimy and unkempt. Europeans in general don't know how to do sand, their rock beaches are cleaner.

I'd consider doing this the other way, fly Rome or ideally Florence to Dubrovnik and work your way up the coast and fly home through Zagreb, ideally direct. Plitvice is your problem, you're dong a whack of back tracking to see it based on your existing itinerary. Or the other way, fly into Zagreb. There's no flights to Zadar or Riejka which is annoying.

Looking at it all again, i dunno the 9 hrs on the boat doesn't seem that bad, saves a lot of hassle otherwise. It sails just once per week though so it's off the table.

[Watching The World Burn]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Trust me I wish I could extend it. But we have to get back unfortunately as wife's job is inflexible.

From last I checked they had built a bridge which bypasses the border crossing into Bosnia and takes you straight to the south side of Croatia.

Dude, next big anniversary or something, tell her to find a locum and jet out for a month! That way her practice is covered, you're good, have fun.

But I know. My wife's a general surgeon and she'd never take more than two weeks off. She has booked a total of three weeks off in the summer (which is when she takes most of her vacation, we might take a week in January as well) and you should have seen the hand wringing that went on about that. Meanwhile, I'm telling her it'll be fine, others will cover, just book and be done with it. She works way too hard IMO. I appreciate her for it, but I'd like to see her pare things back a bit. And that's with her only working half time. Its still nuts...although her call is basically as though she's full time.

Good luck and enjoy!

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Holy shit 9 hours, yeah nah nix that idea. In saying that your door to door flying into SPlit is 3 hrs then you're driving all the way back up to Plitvice etc .... just makes no fucking sense, too much back tracking.

TBH I'd just not got to an Italian Beach, they are pretty shite tbh, which is why Croatia is so popular. Italian beaches tend to be sorta grimy and unkempt. Europeans in general don't know how to do sand, their rock beaches are cleaner.

I'd consider doing this the other way, fly Rome or ideally Florence to Dubrovnik and work your way up the coast and fly home through Zagreb, ideally direct. Plitvice is your problem, you're dong a whack of back tracking to see it based on your existing itinerary. Or the other way, fly into Zagreb. There's no flights to Zadar or Riejka which is annoying.

Looking at it all again, i dunno the 9 hrs on the boat doesn't seem that bad, saves a lot of hassle otherwise. It sails just once per week though so it's off the table.

I've just thought of an idea - let me know your thoughts.

Instead of going up to Florence and trying to squeeze in Cinque Terre.... what if we instead head south from Rome and go straight to Amalfi? We can set up base out of there... can do a day trip to Naples (less than 90 min drive). And then catch a direct flight out of Naples to Croatia.

Compared to original plan which was couple days in florence and couple days in cinque terre then having to head back down to rome to catch a flight to croatia.

As for the croatia part - yeah it's tricky. Everyone I've spoken to has said that Plitvice is a must-do. And the pictures look breathtaking. So I don't really want to miss that. Flying into Zagreb is so far out of the way - it's a solid 2 hours drive north of Plitvice, which is a solid 4.5 hours drive north of Dubrovnik.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I've just thought of an idea - let me know your thoughts.

Instead of going up to Florence and trying to squeeze in Cinque Terre.... what if we instead head south from Rome and go straight to Amalfi? We can set up base out of there... can do a day trip to Naples (less than 90 min drive). And then catch a direct flight out of Naples to Croatia.

Compared to original plan which was couple days in florence and couple days in cinque terre then having to head back down to rome to catch a flight to croatia.

As for the croatia part - yeah it's tricky. Everyone I've spoken to has said that Plitvice is a must-do. And the pictures look breathtaking. So I don't really want to miss that. Flying into Zagreb is so far out of the way - it's a solid 2 hours drive north of Plitvice, which is a solid 4.5 hours drive north of Dubrovnik.

I've mulled these decisions many times myself with kids the same age. I agree Zagreb to Dubrovnik is a long way but your original itinerary is just as much driving as you're going split then up to plitvice then back again etc .... bahhhhh so much back tracking. Plitvice is amazing but get there 10 mins before it opens, it is utter BEDLAM.

This is why I am thinking you shorten Italy. 11 days you cannot do two Italian cities, Italian coast, Dubrovnik and Plitvice, you're spreading yourself way too thin. Amalfi will be an utter shit show in July, cannot tell you what a disaster it will be.

So let's take a step back here, talk to the mrs, is there anything you can drop? For me, i'd drop Italian coast. So something like this.......

Day 1: Flying to rome
Day 2-3: Rome
Day 4: Drive to Florence
Day 5: Florence
Day 6: Drive to Rome

I am gonna stop here, it doesn't work mate, you're losing too much time going back and forth, it just don't work with a total of 13 days. We're at Day 6 and still in Rome and you've traveled 3 of the 6 days, this is nuts. You need to get some R+R or this is just going to feel like a chore.

Keep it simple and TBH I'd look to drop Italy altogether and do it another time. That's my honest to god 2c and highly recommended as this way you can cross Croatia off the list and you lose way less time fucking about.

If you must though..........

Day 1: Fly to Rome
Days 2 + 3: Rome
Day 4: Rome To Zagreb direct then drive to A B+B near Plitvice
Day 5: Plitvice
Day 6: Drive + car ferry to Rab on the Island of .... Rab. Stay in the resort right on Suha Punta Beach, just fucking trust me.
Day 7 + 8: Rab (old town is gorgeous, great beaches etc)
Day 9: Drive to Makarska via Omis, stopping in Omis for lunch and a swim
Day 10: Makarska
Day 11: Drive to Dubrovnik
Day 12 Dubrovnik
Day 13: Fly home

Zadar is a port city, beaches are terrible, avoid port cities. It's a lovely city but kids like to swim when it's 30 degrees out..... whatever that is in your cockamaimy system.

The only issue I see here is it a lot of new accommodation so packing and unpacking .... bit of a PITA. Ideally i'd just droip Italy, it's a PITA and you're making massive sacrifices, do 2 weeks in Italy next yr or vice versa. Don't half arse it.

Ideally fly into Zagreb and take 2 weeks to cruise down the coast to Dubrovnik, I am happy to send you tips offline, I have been there 5 times. Enjoy your kids, enjoy the mrs etc... you're tryign to do way too much. Put up your feet, get some Cevape and a a bottle of Karlovaco.

Here's a small gallery, sorry I don't have more pictures online: https://alfiimages.zenfolio.com/croatia

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Awesome, didn't know that. That might be a great alternative for us to consider.

Here's a link:

https://www.cinqueterre.eu.com/en/boat-excursions

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I've mulled these decisions many times myself with kids the same age. I agree Zagreb to Dubrovnik is a long way but your original itinerary is just as much driving as you're going split then up to plitvice then back again etc .... bahhhhh so much back tracking. Plitvice is amazing but get there 10 mins before it opens, it is utter BEDLAM.

This is why I am thinking you shorten Italy. 11 days you cannot do two Italian cities, Italian coast, Dubrovnik and Plitvice, you're spreading yourself way too thin. Amalfi will be an utter shit show in July, cannot tell you what a disaster it will be.

So let's take a step back here, talk to the mrs, is there anything you can drop? For me, i'd drop Italian coast. So something like this.......

Day 1: Flying to rome
Day 2-3: Rome
Day 4: Drive to Florence
Day 5: Florence
Day 6: Drive to Rome

I am gonna stop here, it doesn't work mate, you're losing too much time going back and forth, it just don't work with a total of 13 days. We're at Day 6 and still in Rome and you've traveled 3 of the 6 days, this is nuts. You need to get some R+R or this is just going to feel like a chore.

Keep it simple and TBH I'd look to drop Italy altogether and do it another time. That's my honest to god 2c and highly recommended as this way you can cross Croatia off the list and you lose way less time fucking about.

If you must though..........

Day 1: Fly to Rome
Days 2 + 3: Rome
Day 4: Rome To Zagreb direct then drive to A B+B near Plitvice
Day 5: Plitvice
Day 6: Drive + car ferry to Rab on the Island of .... Rab. Stay in the resort right on Suha Punta Beach, just fucking trust me.
Day 7 + 8: Rab (old town is gorgeous, great beaches etc)
Day 9: Drive to Makarska via Omis, stopping in Omis for lunch and a swim
Day 10: Makarska
Day 11: Drive to Dubrovnik
Day 12 Dubrovnik
Day 13: Fly home

Zadar is a port city, beaches are terrible, avoid port cities. It's a lovely city but kids like to swim when it's 30 degrees out..... whatever that is in your cockamaimy system.

The only issue I see here is it a lot of new accommodation so packing and unpacking .... bit of a PITA. Ideally i'd just droip Italy, it's a PITA and you're making massive sacrifices, do 2 weeks in Italy next yr or vice versa. Don't half arse it.

Ideally fly into Zagreb and take 2 weeks to cruise down the coast to Dubrovnik, I am happy to send you tips offline, I have been there 5 times. Enjoy your kids, enjoy the mrs etc... you're tryign to do way too much. Put up your feet, get some Cevape and a a bottle of Karlovaco.

Here's a small gallery, sorry I don't have more pictures online: https://alfiimages.zenfolio.com/croatia

Can you expand on Amalfi being a shit show in July? Because of the crowds or because of the heat? More so than other locations?

I know it's a lot. But I've spent the past 8 years frequenting all-inclusive resort vacations where I literally have nothing to do but sit on a beach till I die of boredom, splitting up my time by eating, not for the taste of the food but because it's the most exciting thing happening all day.

I'm ready for a trip that requires me to get off my ass and move.

But I hear what you're saying as well. You originally mentioned heading west. How's the Puglia region? There's direct flights to Croatia out of Bari as well. Could do 3 nights in Rome, then rest of the time in Puglia before flying out of Bari to Croatia.

[Alfisti]

Yeah busy at Amalfi, tourists are a scourge (I know, I know). Like drop your mouse in there on google maps on a July or August date and look at the sea of humanity.

I 1,000 percent hear you on resorts, we don't do those as we don't like to sit still but your original itinerary for example, was travel every second day, i just think that is too much with 2 kids and two women. You can drive down the Croatian coast and lots to see and do and keep moving without getting bored. The resort I mention on Island Rab is just accommodation on a beach etc, not al inclusive etc. Rab is great, lovely small old town vibe but lots of great swimming spots etc, sometimes we spend a week there.

I've never been that far south in Italy so cannot advise, been to Malta but not that region of Italy. There may be flights from Bari but to where in Croatia and are they direct? Gotta be direct, connections are a huge time suck as you inevitably go too far north. You need flights to Dubrovnik.

Oh car rental. Skoda Octavia is the way to go. Small SUV are..... bloody small. Bigger ones are awkward. Octavia has a weird lift back trunk, we fit 5 people and shit ton of luggage no issue and it is frugal and way cheaper to rent than a SUV. Tech tries to fucking kill you but that's all modern shit box cars.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Yeah busy at Amalfi, tourists are a scourge (I know, I know). Like drop your mouse in there on google maps on a July or August date and look at the sea of humanity.

I 1,000 percent hear you on resorts, we don't do those as we don't like to sit still but your original itinerary for example, was travel every second day, i just think that is too much with 2 kids and two women. You can drive down the Croatian coast and lots to see and do and keep moving without getting bored.

I've never been that far south in Italy so cannot advise, been to Malta but not that region of Italy. There may be flights from Bari but to where in Croatia and are they direct? Gotta be direct, connections are a huge time suck as you inevitably go too far north. You need flights to Dubrovnik.

Yup direct flights from Bari to both Dubrovnik and Split. My only concern is if we won't have anything to do or see in that region of Italy and are only going there because we want to avoid crowds. I know there's a famous restaurant on the edge of a cliff in a cave out there, but that's about all I know.

I was also sort of hoping Amalfi would be less busy as the Jubilee would attract most of the crowds towards Rome... but that may be wishful thinking.

[Watching The World Burn]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I was also sort of hoping Amalfi would be less busy as the Jubilee would attract most of the crowds towards Rome... but that may be wishful thinking.

The Pope might also die around the time of your travel, leading crowds to the Vatican City...who knows. Plan on crowds to be safe.

It is a pretty busy itinerary though, I'll give you that. If you think you can get away again for two weeks next year, then I'd do that - drop Italy and do it proper next year and just do Croatia (or vice versa, do Italy this year and Croatia next).

Amalfi traffic is just simply terrible if you are going that way, take a train and bus. If you are heading south, the Blue Grotto is super touristy, but still neat and good to see, but you are going to have to take a boat to Capri. Its good though, you can walk along the island itself before hitting the Blue Grotto which is over way to quick.