[Mattl0806]

Originally Posted by RichardInCA

I don’t know if you’ve sat in other EV’s but there’s a lot more to the difference between them than 0-60’s. Sitting in model 3’s, Polestars, Kias etc….they do not feel like a BMW at all. But that’s beside the point, the feel of an EV is different; there is something more “organic” about an ICE vehicle, EV’s can feel more clinical and that’s a whole other vibe. But this thread is about the 550e so I’ll stop derailing ;-)

I’ll continue to de-rail lol.

Isn’t what you speak of just the expected quality difference of a luxury brand vs non.

Of course any bmw, ICE or EV, would be nicer to sit in vs model 3 or a Kia.

But now I feel that luxury is the only difference btw the cars. No longer is the powertrain a differentiator. So this massively closes the gap btw the brands and makes it a lot harder to rationalize the luxury dollar spend. I mean how much more does quality materials cost. Should it warrant a 50k higher price tag.

[RJH52]

Originally Posted by rgw

My feel is that the 550e is not really the successor to the M550 despite the model number. I think they’re trying to shepherd M550 buyers to the i5 M60 as the successor vehicle. However, I think what a G30 M550 buyer realistically wants is a detuned G90 M5 powertrain in a G60 body. They probably really want the S68 minus the Li Ion battery and motors but that is not a commercially viable product in Europe anymore.

YES! I love my G60 540i but if I could get a V8 without the battery I would be all over it.
The M5 is cool but given interest rates and MF they are leasing for $2k+ per month. Just seems insane to me when years ago cars at similar MSRP were leasing for $1k.

With the battery it’s just not something I personally would feel comfortable owning long term.

[rgw]

Originally Posted by RJH52

YES! I love my G60 540i but if I could get a V8 without the battery I would be all over it.
The M5 is cool but given interest rates and MF they are leasing for $2k+ per month. Just seems insane to me when years ago cars at similar MSRP were leasing for $1k.

With the battery it’s just not something I personally would feel comfortable owning long term.

Yep. Maybe the next lease cycle will be more advantageous for considering an M5 but right now it is just too expensive to consider.

[PeterC4]

Originally Posted by RichardInCA

I don’t know if you’ve sat in other EV’s but there’s a lot more to the difference between them than 0-60’s. Sitting in model 3’s, Polestars, Kias etc….they do not feel like a BMW at all. But that’s beside the point, the feel of an EV is different; there is something more “organic” about an ICE vehicle, EV’s can feel more clinical and that’s a whole other vibe. But this thread is about the 550e so I’ll stop derailing ;-)

Moving to the 550e focus, I think BMW has become more clinical with the interior of the G60 compared to previous BMW models. I have sat in and reviewed a number of cars this week; and the comparisons are very revealing. I even had the opportunity to sit in a Lincoln Aviator. LOL. It was beautiful inside. It's not directly comparable, but the point being, many OEMs have upped their game. And as to KIA, try Hyundai. Those Genesis guys got it going on - Car and Driver certainly ranks the G80 much higher than BMW's G60, for what it's worth.

I think BMW is still trying to stand out, and it's a big transition, so time will tell. I still can't get over no exhaust ports on the 550e.... I think the Genesis has real ones. How times have changed.

[RichardInCA]

Originally Posted by PeterC4

Moving to the 550e focus, I think BMW has become more clinical with the interior of the G60 compared to previous BMW models. I have sat in and reviewed a number of cars this week; and the comparisons are very revealing. I even had the opportunity to sit in a Lincoln Aviator. LOL. It was beautiful inside. It's not directly comparable, but the point being, many OEMs have upped their game. And as to KIA, try Hyundai. Those Genesis guys got it going on - Car and Driver certainly ranks the G80 much higher than BMW's G60, for what it's worth.

I think BMW is still trying to stand out, and it's a big transition, so time will tell. I still can't get over no exhaust ports on the 550e.... I think the Genesis has real ones. How times have changed.

Genesis is definitely solid - but Kia and Hyundai are a different brand. Don’t get me wrong, I’m impressed with their cars, but whether the styling is to one’s taste or not, I think BMW is still turning out interiors that are superior to the non-luxury marques. It’s clear that they’ve lost some of the die-hard BMW fans in the process - I’ve been a long time BMW owner, but I guess I’m one of those who don’t find the new interiors off-putting. After more than a year with my M60, it’s all second nature to me now, the tech has become intuitive and I feel very at home in it. Again, that’s my preference.

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by Mattl0806

I’ll continue to de-rail lol.

Isn’t what you speak of just the expected quality difference of a luxury brand vs non.

Of course any bmw, ICE or EV, would be nicer to sit in vs model 3 or a Kia.

But now I feel that luxury is the only difference btw the cars. No longer is the powertrain a differentiator. So this massively closes the gap btw the brands and makes it a lot harder to rationalize the luxury dollar spend. I mean how much more does quality materials cost. Should it warrant a 50k higher price tag.

To derail the conversation further, I drove a 2025 Panamera 4S today with sticker of $130k. Absolute giggle machine to drive it. Less power than a 540i, much less than a 550e but boatloads more fun to drive. Worth $50k more? Let’s just say I’m trying to rationalize it where I wanted to be underwhelmed and forget about it. BMW is losing the plot. Are the materials that much better? Nope. But the experience definitely is. BMW’s have done this for me in the past. Only thing that comes close lately is prior generation M5, M550i or G80 M3. Might I still end up with a 540i? Sure, but I know what I’m missing.

[Mattl0806]

Originally Posted by tsbrown

To derail the conversation further, I drove a 2025 Panamera 4S today with sticker of $130k. Absolute giggle machine to drive it. Less power than a 540i, much less than a 550e but boatloads more fun to drive. Worth $50k more? Let’s just say I’m trying to rationalize it where I wanted to be underwhelmed and forget about it. BMW is losing the plot. Are the materials that much better? Nope. But the experience definitely is. BMW’s have done this for me in the past. Only thing that comes close lately is prior generation M5, M550i or G80 M3. Might I still end up with a 540i? Sure, but I know what I’m missing.

Oh boy. You should Go for it! I have yet to drive the panamera. If it wasn’t so low to the ground I’d be looking at them. I completely agree, Porsches have that fun factor that bmws seem to be missing more and more these days. I’ve driven multiple variants of the Cayenne and Macan and always thought they gave me more smiles than any x5 or x3. X5 still being a fantastic car and offerring much better infotainment and drivers assist, it is the far better overall package for less money. Nonetheless, Porsche still owns the driving satisfaction and if the info and DAP doesn’t mean much, they are in another league IMO.

[PeterC4]

One thing about the 550e that does stand out is that BMW seems to have done a decent job of dealing with a much heavier car.

The 2nd Gen Panamera starting in 2017 is a wonderful car with lots of choices. Excellent handling and high speed capabilities which is harder to appreciate in NA. Beautiful car inside. You just have to pay for it.

How about a Lucid? Some excellent reviews on that car, not just about the battery technology, but the suspension and road feel. If it can only translate into sales and its struggling stock price.

Seems to me all the OEMs are focusing on electrification because 2035 is really, really close for the auto industry. It's one more model year away. And that is the crux of it. Hybrids are good and suit various drivers and their needs. But if the 2035 regulations are adhered to, the hybrids will have a short production life and really aren't the solution. (As of now anyway). We're all going electric and it's not that far away.

[Vindicator3]

Originally Posted by PeterC4

Car and Driver certainly ranks the G80 much higher than BMW's G60, for what it's worth.

To be fair, C&D gave the Genesis 9.5/10 and the 5-Series 8.5/10. Ranked the Genesis second in class and the BMW fifth in class, with just two Audis in between, one of which is meaningfully more expensive than either the Genesis or the 5-Series. Money quote for this board, I'd think, re the Genesis -

Ride comfort and quiet cruising are the G80's bread and butter, so those seeking sharper handling should look elsewhere. But if you're looking for a tranquil luxury car with impressive features, a handsome design, and a fair price, the G80 delivers exactly that. (emphasis added).

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by Mattl0806

Oh boy. You should Go for it! I have yet to drive the panamera. If it wasn’t so low to the ground I’d be looking at them. I completely agree, Porsches have that fun factor that bmws seem to be missing more and more these days. I’ve driven multiple variants of the Cayenne and Macan and always thought they gave me more smiles than any x5 or x3. X5 still being a fantastic car and offerring much better infotainment and drivers assist, it is the far better overall package for less money. Nonetheless, Porsche still owns the driving satisfaction and if the info and DAP doesn’t mean much, they are in another league IMO.

Porsche is going EV too though, the Taycan (the turbo I’ve driven several times is SICK). The new Macan is EV only, cayenne EV coming soon as is the 718 boxter. I will say this though their software is VW garbage. Just awful.

[Blue Sky]

A few opinions.

G60 550e isn't the old M550i

There's a pattern of posts slamming the new 550e about it not being as sporty as the old M550. Sorry, but perhaps that should be no surprise even without test driving. There's no "M" prefixing the model number. I feel like that was wishful thinking on those people's part that this car was going to be as has been often mentioned "a successor to the M550".

The 550i has been around for a while. I have an F10 550i and M5, both are twin-turbo V8's. The 550 is a wafting luxury cruiser (definitely not a predecessor of the M550), and the M5 is a more edgy performance car in luxury car body.

Charge at home is lazy and silly (not!)

Well, obviously convenience is individually situational dependent. There aren't stations along my most frequently traveled routes, and for sure I cannot fill up the M5 in 5 minutes, including all the startup interaction with the gas pump point-of-sale terminal and super slow pumps. 10 minutes is more like it. I have to go out of my way to gas up. Did I mention how filling up a flashy BMW regularly attracts panhandlers? Another fun aspect of standing around in the inevitably not so prime real estate location.

Panamera and Taycan Turbo

Panny is a nice car. In hybrid form you can Porsche Active Ride which is very nice. I think maybe the V8-only option is gone now, too bad because it might be more reliable. It has even more glossy piano black, which so often is criticized about the G60's, particularly the M60, so be sure to mention that. Just try to buy at 4S for $130k. You have to budget $40k when buying a Porsche for options, so you're really talking about a $170k car. I considered switching to Panamera when I couldn't get a Taycan allocation and then kept learning disturbing reliability issues on TaycanForum. But researching the Panny hybrids showed that before Taycan, Porsche had the same parts and timeliness problems with HV problems in their hybrids like the Panamera and Cayenne. It's true that I don't commute so I could get by while my car is in the shop for a month or several months, but knowing the money pit was there, and then voluntarily walking over it, I'd just be kicking myself if I got one of the random lemons that still continue to roll off the production line and fell into the pit. And then there's the underbody dents on Taycans. A dent > 3 mm along the centerline of the car in the middle will cause Porsche to force a battery replacement not covered by warranty and go ahead and search for this on google, and you'll see that the price was $72k until insurance was involved, then it "lowered" to $41k + diagnostic fee.

I was going to get a Taycan Turbo until all these problems surfaced and an entire calendar year passed without an allocation at my dealer. The Taycan Turbo trim costs a little less than a Panamera Turbo. Chassis, drivetrain and brakes are really great (lots of attention to providing brake pedal feedback), you'll notice it got R&T performance EV of the year a couple times, you can get Active Ride, rear wheel steering and torque vectoring, and the refresh added 10 second boost function "push to pass". Like all cars reviewed in magazines, R&T didn't have to live with the car or deal with repairs or lemons that surfaced after delivery and a LONG order and production wait.

Low points are the software which has some lag, requires rebooting frequently, and the driver assistance functions are behind the curve since the whole system is essentially much more than 5 years old (lane keeping disengages frequently and silently, hand must be on the non-capacitance wheel so you have to jiggle it occasionally to prove you are holding on and paying attention). The PCM hardware was not updated in the refresh, though they introduced a cloud-based nav route computation system because the onboard system is so slow. OTA updates have been discontinued, as have feature subscriptions (so if you didn't buy the feature at build time, you can't subscribe to it any more). The Turbo with options is a $200k car, which to me is too much for a car that even after 5-6 years of production can still unpredicatably and too often it seems roll off the line and into a buyers hands with significant problems, has old Audi driver assistance systems and VW software and is fragile enough that 3 mm underbody dent invalidates your HV battery warranty. What do you think will happen with your insurance rates after you have a $40k battery replacement claim? Have I mentioned that the suspension seems to lower by itself while parked? The depreciation is huge on Taycan, so picking up a used one for significantly less than new is an option if you find one optioned to your liking and are ok with the caveats. The money you save can go to getting wheel alignments at the dealer since front alignment requires removing the front bumper to do the front wheels, and subsequently having all the sensors in the front recalibrated (ACC, parking, night vision). I'm not bitter about Porsche letting me down. No, Really. (grumble mutter #$%)

Porsche 718 EV

For such a low-to-ground car, I hope Porsche is going to better armor it against battery dents, or it's going to be a mess. The 718 EV seems to be delayed due to battery sourcing problems. I'm not sure if this affects the Neue Klasse timetable or not since many articles reference BMW pulling out of a contract with Northvolt which was to be the 718 EVs battery supplier. And Porsche is backpedalling on transition to EVs now anyway, so Cayenne EV is looking further away.

https://www.theautopian.com/the-elec...it-might-flop/

https://www.motor1.com/news/744790/p...ment-problems/

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by Blue Sky

A few opinions.

G60 550e isn't the old M550i

There's a pattern of posts slamming the new 550e about it not being as sporty as the old M550. Sorry, but perhaps that should be no surprise even without test driving. There's no "M" prefixing the model number. I feel like that was wishful thinking on those people's part that this car was going to be as has been often mentioned "a successor to the M550".

The 550i has been around for a while. I have an F10 550i and M5, both are twin-turbo V8's. The 550 is a wafting luxury cruiser (definitely not a predecessor of the M550), and the M5 is a more edgy performance car in luxury car body.

Charge at home is lazy and silly (not!)

Well, obviously convenience is individually situational dependent. There aren't stations along my most frequently traveled routes, and for sure I cannot fill up the M5 in 5 minutes, including all the startup interaction with the gas pump point-of-sale terminal and super slow pumps. 10 minutes is more like it. I have to go out of my way to gas up. Did I mention how filling up a flashy BMW regularly attracts panhandlers? Another fun aspect of standing around in the inevitably not so prime real estate location.

Panamera and Taycan Turbo

Panny is a nice car. In hybrid form you can Porsche Active Ride which is very nice. I think maybe the V8-only option is gone now, too bad because it might be more reliable. It has even more glossy piano black, which so often is criticized about the G60's, particularly the M60, so be sure to mention that. Just try to buy at 4S for $130k. You have to budget $40k when buying a Porsche for options, so you're really talking about a $170k car. I considered switching to Panamera when I couldn't get a Taycan allocation and then kept learning disturbing reliability issues on TaycanForum. But researching the Panny hybrids showed that before Taycan, Porsche had the same parts and timeliness problems with HV problems in their hybrids like the Panamera and Cayenne. It's true that I don't commute so I could get by while my car is in the shop for a month or several months, but knowing the money pit was there, and then voluntarily walking over it, I'd just be kicking myself if I got one of the random lemons that still continue to roll off the production line and fell into the pit. And then there's the underbody dents on Taycans. A dent > 3 mm along the centerline of the car in the middle will cause Porsche to force a battery replacement not covered by warranty and go ahead and search for this on google, and you'll see that the price was $72k until insurance was involved, then it "lowered" to $41k + diagnostic fee.

I was going to get a Taycan Turbo until all these problems surfaced and an entire calendar year passed without an allocation at my dealer. The Taycan Turbo trim costs a little less than a Panamera Turbo. Chassis, drivetrain and brakes are really great (lots of attention to providing brake pedal feedback), you'll notice it got R&T performance EV of the year a couple times, you can get Active Ride, rear wheel steering and torque vectoring, and the refresh added 10 second boost function "push to pass". Like all cars reviewed in magazines, R&T didn't have to live with the car or deal with repairs or lemons that surfaced after delivery and a LONG order and production wait.

Low points are the software which has some lag, requires rebooting frequently, and the driver assistance functions are behind the curve since the whole system is essentially much more than 5 years old (lane keeping disengages frequently and silently, hand must be on the non-capacitance wheel so you have to jiggle it occasionally to prove you are holding on and paying attention). The PCM hardware was not updated in the refresh, though they introduced a cloud-based nav route computation system because the onboard system is so slow. OTA updates have been discontinued, as have feature subscriptions (so if you didn't buy the feature at build time, you can't subscribe to it any more). The Turbo with options is a $200k car, which to me is too much for a car that even after 5-6 years of production can still unpredicatably and too often it seems roll off the line and into a buyers hands with significant problems, has old Audi driver assistance systems and VW software and is fragile enough that 3 mm underbody dent invalidates your HV battery warranty. What do you think will happen with your insurance rates after you have a $40k battery replacement claim? Have I mentioned that the suspension seems to lower by itself while parked? The depreciation is huge on Taycan, so picking up a used one for significantly less than new is an option if you find one optioned to your liking and are ok with the caveats. The money you save can go to getting wheel alignments at the dealer since front alignment requires removing the front bumper to do the front wheels, and subsequently having all the sensors in the front recalibrated (ACC, parking, night vision). I'm not bitter about Porsche letting me down. No, Really. (grumble mutter #$%)

Porsche 718 EV

For such a low-to-ground car, I hope Porsche is going to better armor it against battery dents, or it's going to be a mess. The 718 EV seems to be delayed due to battery sourcing problems. I'm not sure if this affects the Neue Klasse timetable or not since many articles reference BMW pulling out of a contract with Northvolt which was to be the 718 EVs battery supplier. And Porsche is backpedalling on transition to EVs now anyway, so Cayenne EV is looking further away.

https://www.theautopian.com/the-elec...it-might-flop/

https://www.motor1.com/news/744790/p...ment-problems/

Have you checked out the new Taycan turbo? They fixed a lot of the pre refresh issues, and it’s insane charging rate is pretty much second to none.

[PeterC4]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

Have you checked out the new Taycan turbo? They fixed a lot of the pre refresh issues, and it’s insane charging rate is pretty much second to none.

0-100 mph in 5.5 seconds !!

Lucid air has some decent charging rates in their various models, and power too.

[Blue Sky]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

Have you checked out the new Taycan turbo? They fixed a lot of the pre refresh issues, and it’s insane charging rate is pretty much second to none.

Originally Posted by PeterC4

0-100 mph in 5.5 seconds !!

Lucid air has some decent charging rates in their various models, and power too.

Yes the Taycan refresh was mainly about upping the charging rate and increasing range a little bit (weight dropped, efficiency increased). Push-to-pass was a nice addition. The big thing for me was including availability of Active Ride, a game changer I really want. The car can lean into corners and has even better adaptation to bumps and washboard than adaptive suspensions. This is because the “dampers” aren’t really dampers, they are more like pistons, they can be commanded to both withdraw (lower) and extend (raise) very quickly allowing the car to stay level and calm over bumpy road. Maybe in a few years when there are some used ones available I might get one, but buying one new at $200k I think isn’t worth it to me considering Porsche’s attitude towards supporting it and potential for problems. Maybe if Taycan survives to have a actual second generation and the battery and it’s heating/cooling system problems are worked out.

To be fair about the wait, I was offered an allocation for a Taycan Turbo GT even though they couldn’t get one for a Turbo, but the Turbo was the speed/comfort/tech mix that I wanted, not the weight reduced less comfortable more noisy hypercar with performance I can never really use because I don’t track and live in too populated an area.

[Frupal]

Originally Posted by Blue Sky

Yes the Taycan refresh was mainly about upping the charging rate and increasing range a little bit (weight dropped, efficiency increased). Push-to-pass was a nice addition. The big thing for me was including availability of Active Ride, a game changer I really want. The car can lean into corners and has even better adaptation to bumps and washboard than adaptive suspensions. This is because the “dampers” aren’t really dampers, they are more like pistons, they can be commanded to both withdraw (lower) and extend (raise) very quickly allowing the car to stay level and calm over bumpy road. Maybe in a few years when there are some used ones available I might get one, but buying one new at $200k I think isn’t worth it to me considering Porsche’s attitude towards supporting it and potential for problems. Maybe if Taycan survives to have a actual second generation and the battery and it’s heating/cooling system problems are worked out.

To be fair about the wait, I was offered an allocation for a Taycan Turbo GT even though they couldn’t get one for a Turbo, but the Turbo was the speed/comfort/tech mix that I wanted, not the weight reduced less comfortable more noisy hypercar with performance I can never really use because I don’t track and live in too populated an area.

I test drove a Taycan. The AC vents are non-adjustable. For me this is a non-starter.

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by Frupal

I test drove a Taycan. The AC vents are non-adjustable. For me this is a non-starter.

Probably the same adjustment as the Panamera I drove…via the MMI screen. The G60 is more easily/traditionally adjusted compared to that.

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by Blue Sky

A few opinions.

G60 550e isn't the old M550i

There's a pattern of posts slamming the new 550e about it not being as sporty as the old M550. Sorry, but perhaps that should be no surprise even without test driving. There's no "M" prefixing the model number. I feel like that was wishful thinking on those people's part that this car was going to be as has been often mentioned "a successor to the M550".

The 550i has been around for a while. I have an F10 550i and M5, both are twin-turbo V8's. The 550 is a wafting luxury cruiser (definitely not a predecessor of the M550), and the M5 is a more edgy performance car in luxury car body.

Charge at home is lazy and silly (not!)

Well, obviously convenience is individually situational dependent. There aren't stations along my most frequently traveled routes, and for sure I cannot fill up the M5 in 5 minutes, including all the startup interaction with the gas pump point-of-sale terminal and super slow pumps. 10 minutes is more like it. I have to go out of my way to gas up. Did I mention how filling up a flashy BMW regularly attracts panhandlers? Another fun aspect of standing around in the inevitably not so prime real estate location.

Panamera and Taycan Turbo

Panny is a nice car. In hybrid form you can Porsche Active Ride which is very nice. I think maybe the V8-only option is gone now, too bad because it might be more reliable. It has even more glossy piano black, which so often is criticized about the G60's, particularly the M60, so be sure to mention that. Just try to buy at 4S for $130k. You have to [...]

Lots to unpack here. Agree on the G30 M550i vs G60 550e, and I think that’s what disappointed many when the prospect of the M560e was cancelled.

Porsche…you have to pay to play. I think it’s always been that way and probably why more BMW owners haven’t made the switch. It’s one of those items many people say “someday I’ll get one“. For me, after driving the Panamera, I loved it but the barrier is not the price. It’s actually that it will draw the wrong attention in places I need to go semi regularly. My G30 isn’t invisible but it’s less conspicuous.

Also it seems Porsche, like many manufacturers, is trying to extend ICE vehicles because the EV demand isn’t where it needs to be for the investment they made.