[baege]

Originally Posted by bucketfoot

Get real winter tires.

I cannot understand people that spend the money for this level of a vehicle and then question paying a couple of thousand more to make the car safely drivable in the winter.

I got caught out in a freak storm once without the correct tires. That was enough for me

it's not about the money but rather the hassle, inconvenience and risk involved in changeovers twice a year

[baege]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I had Michelin Alpin PA4 winter tires for 3 years on my M235. I hated every moment of it. They handled and braked like utter garbage in temps above 40 degrees. This is a problem because during the Kansas City winter season (December to March) has a ton of 40+ degree days in addition to 0 to 30 degree days and 15-20" snow per season (usually 1" to 2" events). The snow traction wasn't overly impressive either for the compromises in warmer winter weather. The wear was also terrible as winter tires have very soft rubber thus wear extremely fast. I got 15K out of the tires before they were toast. What bothered me the most was the ill handling and braking though. The car is FAR better at accident avoidance with the AS4s in nearly all winter conditions except of driving in snow which accounts for maybe 2% of the winter conditions I drive in. Why prepare for the absolute worst case rather than the norm?

I've driven in 35 Kansas City winters with all sorts of cars and the M235 is the ONLY car that I ever outfitted with winter tires because I bought into the Kool-Aid on these forums that because I lived in an area with true winter, I needed winter tires. I got suckered. The ONLY time I got stuck in the snow was in my wife's 2007 Outback driving in a blizzard and freak snow storm and got it high centered in about 12" on unplowed snow in our hilly neighborhood.

your point about preparing for the worst rather than the norm is bang on. In my case I can just avoid the worst and not go out if things look dicey.

I had PA4's on my M2 comp and was not a huge fan and honestly I didn't feel that confident in the snow with them anyways.

I just want to feel free enough to go out and about as long as they aren't forecasting much more than an inch of snow for the time period I will be out, sounds like the AS4's will cut it for that kind of use.

[baege]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

If you guys are getting around fine on 305/30/20 AS4 all seasons on RWD cars in the same winter climate and conditions as the OP (Toronto, apparently), then he should be fine as well.

I have an AWD car with 305/40/20 (cushier sidewall) AS3 all seasons and it was so bad in snow that I bought a set of 19'' snow wheels and narrower snows with bigger sidewalls after the first couple of snows. But this is in NH and the winters may be worse.

the AS4's are quite a bit better than the AS3's in snow from what I gather

[freakystyly]

Our city workers driving the plows do an excellent job around here, I have to say... They'll be out there pre-salting the roads with hundreds of tons of salt or brine at the rumour of a snow flake. Main roads get priority of course.

Just remember winter tires aren't mandatory in Ontario and there will be cars behind you struggling to stop with much worse tires. Both times I've been rear ended were in the winter by minivans who couldn't stop for a stop sign. Thankfully low speed, very minor damage.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by baege

it's not about the money but rather the hassle, inconvenience and risk involved in changeovers twice a year

do you have space to swap them yourself? It takes me 45 mins on my e90. I use Blizzak 235 square perf winter tires and they are excellent up to 60 deg as a winter tire.

Yes a bit softer rubber as temps go up but stiffer sidewall. The biggest issue you will have is braking and stopping. Let’s say you are out driving and freezing rain starts. I’d want my perf winter tire all day long. No way I’d risk plowing into a wall or going downhill and not being able to stop at intersection. Huge risk!

[Alfisti]

I doubt he has the space I think he lives downtown. I live in the burbs and I cannot be arsed storing all the tools, the jack, the hassle etc. I run winter rubber on the wife's family suv but on my DD I switched to Michelin CrossClimate because of the hassle and truth be told we get very little snow, the roads are plowed and if it does snow the traffic will be so horrendous you ain't doing more than 20 mph.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by baege

the AS4's are quite a bit better than the AS3's in snow from what I gather

Probably. I have AS4 on wheels for another car and have run them the last 2 winters instead of the snow wheels. But that car is AWD. And each spring I am happy to take the AS4 off and put the summer wheels with PS4 back on. The PS4 are quieter, handle better and ride better than the AS4.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I doubt he has the space I think he lives downtown. I live in the burbs and I cannot be arsed storing all the tools, the jack, the hassle etc. I run winter rubber on the wife's family suv but on my DD I switched to Michelin CrossClimate because of the hassle and truth be told we get very little snow, the roads are plowed and if it does snow the traffic will be so horrendous you ain't doing more than 20 mph.

You don't even have a JACK!?!

[pbonsalb]

A lot of cars don’t come with spares or jacks these days. And a lot of car owners don’t do any work themselves on their cars. I have 4 jacks and a lift….

[lens]

Originally Posted by baege

it's not about the money but rather the hassle, inconvenience and risk involved in changeovers twice a year

There is no hassle.

Buy a separate set of wheels for winter.

Takes 30 mins to swap wheels over.

What kind of "hassle" would you rather have, take 30 mins to swap sets of wheels or spend months or weeks dealing with your insurance to get your car fixed because you crashed into a ditch because you tried to brake and your all seasons didn't stop?


I lived in Toronto for years, you don't get the odd snow, you're guaranteed to get snow.

The amount of people I see in the ditch with all seasons is ridiculous, I also witnessed people stuck on ramps because the had all seasons.

I would hope one day Ontario adopts Quebec policy of mandatory winter tires.

Not to mention, your auto insurance gives you a discount if you buy winter tires.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

You don't even have a JACK!?!

For what exactly?

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by lens

There is no hassle.

Buy a separate set of wheels for winter.

Takes 30 mins to swap wheels over.

What kind of "hassle" would you rather have, take 30 mins to swap sets of wheels or spend months or weeks dealing with your insurance to get your car fixed because you crashed into a ditch because you tried to brake and your all seasons didn't stop?


I lived in Toronto for years, you don't get the odd snow, you're guaranteed to get snow.

The amount of people I see in the ditch with all seasons is ridiculous, I also witnessed people stuck on ramps because the had all seasons.

I would hope one day Ontario adopts Quebec policy of mandatory winter tires.

Not to mention, your auto insurance gives you a discount if you buy winter tires.

I change wheels on 6-9 cars every fall and spring — my own cars and ones belonging to family and friends. 30 minutes is about right whether on the lift or with a floor jack, but there is also the storage time — I carry them up and down from the basement and that is more of a pain to me than the actual changeover. The worst are my father in law’s Lincoln Navigator. Those wheels are tires must weigh 80-90 lbs each.

In my area (southern New Hampshire), most of the cars I see that have slid off the road are SUVs. Maybe they have only all seasons or maybe the drivers are over confident because of the AWD. It helps to practice sliding around because you will at some point be sliding around, and to understand that you can brake or steer your way out of trouble but can do only one of the two at a time unless you are very experienced.

[bucketfoot]

Originally Posted by baege

it's not about the money but rather the hassle, inconvenience and risk involved in changeovers twice a year

I put mine on a separate set of wheels and store and change them over myself. So a piece of cake for me.

But I guess I can understand the hassle if you are in an apartment or someplace you can't keep the extra set of tires and change them out yourself.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by lens

The amount of people I see in the ditch with all seasons is ridiculous, I also witnessed people stuck on ramps because the had all seasons.

The people I see in ditches and in wrecks in the winter are usually driving trucks and SUVs. LOL

[XutvJet]

I remain mesmerized at how I managed to survive driving through over 3 decades of snowy, slushy, and icy winters in Kansas City on all seasons (minus the 3 years I had winter tires on the M235). Heck, I even got around fine in my 1994 Z28 on all seasons through 3 winter in Lawrence, KS which is full of steep hills. My roommate managed to do the same in his 1990 Mustang 5.0.

More impressive to me were the cops prior to their switchover to Explorers and Durangos. Cops used to pilot big, full size RWD V8 Crown Vics and Impalas and all ran all seasons. I never once saw a cop stuck.

[pbonsalb]

Which of your cars and which of the police cars had 305/30/20 all seasons?

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Which of your cars and which of the police cars had 305/30/20 all seasons?

None, obviously. The widest I've piloted are 10.5" wide 265/40R18. But a majority of my cars didn't have traction control or ABS plus they had all seasons that are generations behind the winter traction they have now.

Those cops cars didn't have TC either and many didn't have ABS back in the 1980s and 1990s.

As for running 305/30/20 all seasons on a Cayman 4.0 GTS, I probably wouldn't do it in the snow unless the area is really flat. It's too wide to cut into real snow and the car is light. Slush? Sure. Wet and cold roads. Absolutely. A street with some packed snow here and there. Sure.

If one lives in an area where it routinely snows and there is snow on the road 20+% of the time in winter and/or it's below freezing most of the time, then yeah, winter and snow tires make sense.

[Hydrostream]

AS4s are fine, especially if you don’t see much snow and can make alternate plans when you do. They’re great for the wet, slightly above freezing roads we have all winter where I live.

[pbonsalb]

Here is a good article comparing snows to all seasons.
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/a...campaign=print

[TheWatchGuy]

Anything's doable if youre smart about it and dont come across an emergency maneuver type of situation.

Ive driven performance summer tires in the snow, and while it did ok for normal driving as long as i took things at a reasonable speed, its the sudden braking and turning that will get you.

[bucketfoot]

Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy

Anything's doable if you don't come across an emergency maneuver type of situation.

That's the key thing... you cannot control the vast majority of emergency situations. The ability to stop and change direction is everything.

[pbonsalb]

It is starting to get into the 40s at night where I am and below 50 is where I notice the PS4 on my car start to suffer from the cold. Noticeably less traction in performance situations — hard acceleration, hard braking, hard cornering. Will put the AS4 on next week. They do much better in the cold and, with AWD, well enough in the snow that I have not run my snow wheels the last 2 winters.