[TXSTYLE]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

To be fair, every car starts off depreciating faster, then slows. Most cars lose 20-25% the day you drive it off the lot. Porsche GT 911s being the notable exception that seem to just go up in value.

Solid point.

I'm actually surprised over the salty comments.

The fact that GM even put the R&D to build a Mid Engine Vette and bring it to market, is commendable! Sure, the looks are subjective. But it's still an eye catcher.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by TXSTYLE

Solid point.

I'm actually surprised over the salty comments.

The fact that GM even put the R&D to build a Mid Engine Vette and bring it to market, is commendable! Sure, the looks are subjective. But it's still an eye catcher.

It didn't take that much. Corvette has been front mid engine since the C4. Since the 1997 C5 the Corvette has used a transaxle and a torque tube. Eliminate torque tube and you have a rear mid engine setup. They basically just had to move the firewall bulkhead and route cooling stuff. And since it's a space frame anyways, it's all a lot easier.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

It didn't take that much. Corvette has been front mid engine since the C4. Since the 1997 C5 the Corvette has used a transaxle and a torque tube. Eliminate torque tube and you have a rear mid engine setup. They basically just had to move the firewall bulkhead and route cooling stuff. And since it's a space frame anyways, it's all a lot easier.

This is total BS. Sure, technically the engine center is a little behind the axle. so is my Camaro and we aren't going around calling them mid-engine. The engine much closer to the REAR axle puts down power much better, beating out cars with more HP just due to this one aspect. This is a totally new chassis designed from the ground up. You old front-engine corvette is not "essentially a C8". Please step away from the drugs. no matter how good they might be.

It's ok, no one is saying you can't like your corvette. You seem to be seeing the C8 as a personal threat and are spewing bizarre stuff as a defense mechanism.

They are going to keep making better cars than your old ones. Mine too.

[omega2733]

🍿

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I've said since day one, the car simply does not look right. I was at a large car show today with many C7 and C8 near each other and the C8 is just not right, the rear simply looks ill fitting to the rest of the car.

I feel like the only ones that look OK, are when they are black. Have seen 5-6 Z06’s lately and when everything is black, it seems to hide the awful-ness of the rear pretty well. I’m not a fan of black cars but if I had to own one, that would be my choice. Some company should make a whole rear aftermarket set up.

[M5Rick]

None over the pond that I can see.

[///MPhatic]

You can't "pop the hood."

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by RM7

This is total BS. Sure, technically the engine center is a little behind the axle. so is my Camaro and we aren't going around calling them mid-engine. The engine much closer to the REAR axle puts down power much better, beating out cars with more HP just due to this one aspect. This is a totally new chassis designed from the ground up. You old front-engine corvette is not "essentially a C8". Please step away from the drugs. no matter how good they might be.

It's ok, no one is saying you can't like your corvette. You seem to be seeing the C8 as a personal threat and are spewing bizarre stuff as a defense mechanism.

They are going to keep making better cars than your old ones. Mine too.

I never said it was essentially a C8 or anything like that. I quite specifically do not like the C8 layout. That said, the design theory was already there. It was WAY easier to come up with the C8 than it would be for a company like Dord that doesn't already have that same kind of design groundwork.

To be honest, I can't really think of a single mod engine car I've ever driven and was like "this is fun" other than like, a Lotus. Cayman is a snooze. C8 is an under steering snooze. Old MR2s were slow. NSX was cool from nostalgia, but not fun. Foero was underpowered. 4C might have been fun if it had a manual?

If someone was gonna go e me either a new mustang gt or a c8 and I had to keep it, I'd 100% take the stang.

The thing about "better cars" is it's subjective. Will they keep making faster cars? Sure. But a lot of people (me included) would have a very good argument that leak sports car was like over a decade ago. It certainly isn't now where some cars offer manual transmissions. I get it, autos now are really good, I have one in my daily driver, I don't want one in my toy.

[David70]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I never said it was essentially a C8 or anything like that. I quite specifically do not like the C8 layout. That said, the design theory was already there. It was WAY easier to come up with the C8 than it would be for a company like Dord that doesn't already have that same kind of design groundwork.

To be honest, I can't really think of a single mod engine car I've ever driven and was like "this is fun" other than like, a Lotus. Cayman is a snooze. C8 is an under steering snooze. Old MR2s were slow. NSX was cool from nostalgia, but not fun. Foero was underpowered. 4C might have been fun if it had a manual?

If someone was gonna go e me either a new mustang gt or a c8 and I had to keep it, I'd 100% take the stang.

The thing about "better cars" is it's subjective. Will they keep making faster cars? Sure. But a lot of people (me included) would have a very good argument that leak sports car was like over a decade ago. It certainly isn't now where some cars offer manual transmissions. I get it, autos now are really good, I have one in my daily driver, I don't want one in my toy.

The "design theory was already there" - No idea what this means but going from the C7 to the C8 was not a simple project. Moving the engine from sitting on the front axle or sitting just behind the front axle to the rear doesn't make much difference as the chassis is completely new.

You can say whatever you want about which one you prefer but C8 engine location improved the performance of the car far above anything that they could do with the C7, front mid engine car. The very best performance cars move the engine to behind the driver as it is optimum. Nothing about this is subjective.

[Efthreeoh]

As I remember it, for decades the 'Vette clientle were clamoring for a mid-engine chassis. Now that its here they are pooping all over it?

I like the look of the base C8 without all the aero doodads. It looks best in black IMO. But the interior design is just weird to me because of the divided cockpit; I'm not sure of the function of it. And not offering a manual I think was a mistake. It does seem awfully big for a sports car.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by David70

The "design theory was already there" - No idea what this means but going from the C7 to the C8 was not a simple project. Moving the engine from sitting on the front axle or sitting just behind the front axle to the rear doesn't make much difference as the chassis is completely new.

You can say whatever you want about which one you prefer but C8 engine location improved the performance of the car far above anything that they could do with the C7, front mid engine car. The very best performance cars move the engine to behind the driver as it is optimum. Nothing about this is subjective.

If you can't grasp that it's far easier to develop a mid engine car when your powertrain is essentially the same but with a torque tube inserted between them, I don't know how to help you. Yes, obviously you had to redesign the space frame around that new location, you have to redesign the space frame IN GENERAL, it's a new car.

Also, that "far above anything they could do with the C7" is bullshit. Pure marketing bullshit. The #3 fastest lap time at the nurburgring for a production car is a front engine Mercedes. The two cars faster than it? One is a tuned GT2 RS (which being tuned shouldn't meet the requirements for production car) and the other is the Mercedes AMG One which is basically a tech demo mixed with an F1 car.

GM could have pushed the FR layout further, they just chose to go for the marketing route and went mid engine. Typical of Mary Barra's "leadership" pick the short term gain even if it leads to long term failure.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

As I remember it, for decades the 'Vette clientle were clamoring for a mid-engine chassis. Now that its here they are pooping all over it?

I like the look of the base C8 without all the aero doodads. It looks best in black IMO. But the interior design is just weird to me because of the divided cockpit; I'm not sure of the function of it. And not offering a manual I think was a mistake. It does seem awfully big for a sports car.

No, Corvette buyers were never clamoring for a mid engine chassis. Non Corvette buyers were, and the auto journalists were, buy Corvette owners/buyers by and large liked the mix of practical storage space, fun driving dynamics, and big smokey burnouts that the front engine, RWD platform offered.

I can honestly say I've met exactly 0 Corvette owners who wished their cars were mid engine. This coming from a guy with 2 of them, and a ton of friends with them, and a ton of neighbors with them. In fact, my neighbor who HAS A C8 said he wished he had kept his C7 instead of getting the C8.

[Alfisti]

I do think it is harder to engineer a mid engine car than you are giving GM credit for but agree I don't think their traditional market wanted it. It's had a unique place in the market as the everymans performance coupe and now it wants to be a supercar.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I never said it was essentially a C8 or anything like that. I quite specifically do not like the C8 layout. That said, the design theory was already there. It was WAY easier to come up with the C8 than it would be for a company like Dord that doesn't already have that same kind of design groundwork.

To be honest, I can't really think of a single mod engine car I've ever driven and was like "this is fun" other than like, a Lotus. Cayman is a snooze. C8 is an under steering snooze. Old MR2s were slow. NSX was cool from nostalgia, but not fun. Foero was underpowered. 4C might have been fun if it had a manual?

If someone was gonna go e me either a new mustang gt or a c8 and I had to keep it, I'd 100% take the stang.

The thing about "better cars" is it's subjective. Will they keep making faster cars? Sure. But a lot of people (me included) would have a very good argument that leak sports car was like over a decade ago. It certainly isn't now where some cars offer manual transmissions. I get it, autos now are really good, I have one in my daily driver, I don't want one in my toy.

Show me on this doll where the C8 touched you.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by RM7

Show me on this doll where the C8 touched you.

I just don't like them. They don't drive how I want a Corvette to drive, and don't offer a manual. That's two big strikes out. Add in the DSG issues and it's clearly the worst Corvette of all time.

[Alfisti]

As someone with no horse in the race, I find it disappointing a car as large as a vette (no matter the generation) doesn't have back seats so i can carry my two boys. I have a 12 yr old and 8 year old, mr 12 sits in the front and 8 in the rear of my 911 and they love a hoon around town. It's a big car is the vette, but just 2 seats. This is especially stark given how small the LS engine is, dang thing fits in my 911.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

As someone with no horse in the race, I find it disappointing a car as large as a vette (no matter the generation) doesn't have back seats so i can carry my two boys. I have a 12 yr old and 8 year old, mr 12 sits in the front and 8 in the rear of my 911 and they love a hoon around town. It's a big car is the vette, but just 2 seats. This is especially stark given how small the LS engine is, dang thing fits in my 911.

The Corvette isn't really all that big, lol.

But yeah, I know what you mean. It's honestly the thing that makes me think about getting rid of mine most. My two kids can't ride in the thing at all. A 911 wouldn't be a whole lot better, but they would at least have seats.

It's really just a demographic thing. Corvette buyers are largely empty nesters that are "letting loose" after raising kids with 4 doors. Now that it's just them and Barb, they get a little 2 seater. Having bought my first Vette in my mid 20s I was such a HUGE outlier. My buddies that did the same at the same age also were. And man did we get some heat, lots of shit talkers about how it's an old man car and what not, but the girls loved riding in it, lol.

I can't see myself stepping down into a Camaro or mustang to get a backseat. A 911 is absurdly expensive now. A CT5V Blackwing would work, with a manual, and give me all the space I'd need, but again it's a crapload of money, and an old man's car lol. Maybe if this Mustang 4 door thing doesn't go all "Mach E" on us it'll be an option, if it's real, but I dunno. I guess I'm just gonna end up mainly driving the fast SUVs unless I buy a good old sport sedan (with a stick).

[reallymarkedup]

The whole reason I didn't have kids was so I could buy a two seater car and not feel guilty. Well that and I didn't want kids, but also because two seater sports cars.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

The Corvette isn't really all that big, lol.

But yeah, I know what you mean. It's honestly the thing that makes me think about getting rid of mine most. My two kids can't ride in the thing at all. A 911 wouldn't be a whole lot better, but they would at least have seats.

It's really just a demographic thing. Corvette buyers are largely empty nesters that are "letting loose" after raising kids with 4 doors. Now that it's just them and Barb, they get a little 2 seater. Having bought my first Vette in my mid 20s I was such a HUGE outlier. My buddies that did the same at the same age also were. And man did we get some heat, lots of shit talkers about how it's an old man car and what not, but the girls loved riding in it, lol.

I can't see myself stepping down into a Camaro or mustang to get a backseat. A 911 is absurdly expensive now. A CT5V Blackwing would work, with a manual, and give me all the space I'd need, but again it's a crapload of money, and an old man's car lol. Maybe if this Mustang 4 door thing doesn't go all "Mach E" on us it'll be an option, if it's real, but I dunno. I guess I'm just gonna end up mainly driving the fast SUVs unless I buy a good old sport sedan (with a stick).

Put a vette near a 911 and it looks big man. Some of the other cars you mention are not sports cars, they are sport sedans etc. I think before the price rises a PP2 Mustang convertible was a very compelling argument but they have dropped the PP2 package for the new gen which is disappointing. In the end I cross shopped 997 911 against a PP2 Mustang GT convertibles. 911 won out because I wanted to scratch the sports car itch but the stang was a legit contender based on having back seats.

I'd say 50% of my driving with the 911 has been with all 4 of us in the car, that's getting harder as my big one is now 5ft 7 but it's been handy for sub 45 minute trips.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Put a vette near a 911 and it looks big man. Some of the other cars you mention are not sports cars, they are sport sedans etc. I think before the price rises a PP2 Mustang convertible was a very compelling argument but they have dropped the PP2 package for the new gen which is disappointing. In the end I cross shopped 997 911 against a PP2 Mustang GT convertibles. 911 won out because I wanted to scratch the sports car itch but the stang was a legit contender based on having back seats.

I'd say 50% of my driving with the 911 has been with all 4 of us in the car, that's getting harder as my big one is now 5ft 7 but it's been handy for sub 45 minute trips.

I didn't love the S550 Mustang. It's fine. But I didn't love it. A Mach 1 is an option I guess. But I think I'd be more likely to get a 2013 Boss 302. My dad had a Laguna Seca and it was the most fun, most rowdy stock car I've ever driven. But I don't know that I could really see myself taking the kids in that, given how absolutely rowdy it is.

But yeah, there just aren't a lot of good sports cars with backseats.

[Alfisti]

Technically there's only one sportscar, there's several muscle cars and powerful GT cars but only one sportscar.

Which circles back to the vette, at that size you'd think they could do it but yeah traditional golfers early retiree market i guess.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

If you can't grasp that it's far easier to develop a mid engine car when your powertrain is essentially the same but with a torque tube inserted between them, I don't know how to help you. Yes, obviously you had to redesign the space frame around that new location, you have to redesign the space frame IN GENERAL, it's a new car.

Also, that "far above anything they could do with the C7" is bullshit. Pure marketing bullshit. The #3 fastest lap time at the nurburgring for a production car is a front engine Mercedes. The two cars faster than it? One is a tuned GT2 RS (which being tuned shouldn't meet the requirements for production car) and the other is the Mercedes AMG One which is basically a tech demo mixed with an F1 car.

GM could have pushed the FR layout further, they just chose to go for the marketing route and went mid engine. Typical of Mary Barra's "leadership" pick the short term gain even if it leads to long term failure.

To get the most out of a sports car naturally, mid-engine is where it's at. The C5-C7 Vettes have a great chassis layout and do exceptionally well, but going mid-engine allows for better overall handling and braking dynamics. Understeer in a mid-engine car is usually intended so as to keep most drivers from killing themselves because the limits are so damn high that these mid-engine cars can be thrown into turns at such high speed.

I have a "snoozer" 987.2 Cayman and it is absolutely amazing in the turns as well as launching. The amount of rear grip is staggering with all that engine and passenger weight just ahead of the rear tires. This 265hp/220tq car routinely yanks 1.8 60 foots which is AWD levels of launch and is pretty nuts for such little power and torque. Punch it full throttle in 1st and it just hooks. Hammer it through the turns and it just sticks and sticks unless it's a really tight turn, at which it will understeer a bit.

Another advantage of mid-engine is less front end. It allows the driver way more vision and a better sense of where the front tires are thus more confidence. Front engine Vettes have a lot of hood.