[Scrapula]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Exactly the same vehicles, I see no difference.

Then again, I crashed my M2 into an 18-wheeler this morning that just showed up out of nowhere in front of me in a one lane road with no intersections

Oh, no! I assume that you are okay.

[MrDit]

Originally Posted by M2siast

I am!
But my doctor said I need new specs…

Good to hear you are ok and can apply some humour to a difficult situation.

[Eric500]

Originally Posted by Montaver

This car got cost cut to the bone

Yeah, not many if anyone in the YouTube videos or reviews are calling them out for it

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by Eric500

Yeah, not many if anyone in the YouTube videos or reviews are calling them out for it

The capex required to develop electric vehicles has absolutely crushed these traditional manufacturers. VW was crippled even earlier by the diesel scandal which is why they have barely developed anything outside of the ID (which is garbage) in a decade. Porsche have had no perceptible fall in quality, but they have also massively increased their prices, close to 20pc if you factor in the last few years. The fact this car is 120k GBP ($150k) is absolutely nuts however you compare it.

[BMWKLG]

Originally Posted by BimmerGuyFL78

Maybe to Helen Keller.

This was funny. 😂

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Glad it was capex then, otherwise they would’ve gone bankrupt if I follow you

The cost of designing/sourcing/tooling/manufacturing this generation of electric vehicles has absolutely suffocated the traditional auto makers. BMW set a target in 2019 to reduce manufacturing cost per vehicle by 25% to pay for it essentially. There are some efficiencies to be had, but a lot of it can only be done by squeezing every penny. David Twohig who was a senior engineer at Nissan/Renault/Alpine recently wrote a great book on his time in the industry which gives some great insight. BMW are still doing well but it’s a globally very diverging market, especially between US and Europe. China has fierce local competition now from electric car brands. It’s evolve or die, and evolving is expensive. There are certain brands that will be basically dead in 10 years, like Infiniti or Dodge if they get it wrong. I’m glad BMW still have the budget to develop the interesting stuff but I think the next decade in cars is going to get very challenging and I wouldn’t be surprised to see some big casualties.

[RichardInCA]

Originally Posted by Montaver

The cost of designing/sourcing/tooling/manufacturing this generation of electric vehicles has absolutely suffocated the traditional auto makers. BMW set a target in 2019 to reduce manufacturing cost per vehicle by 25% to pay for it essentially. There are some efficiencies to be had, but a lot of it can only be done by squeezing every penny. David Twohig who was a senior engineer at Nissan/Renault/Alpine recently wrote a great book on his time in the industry which gives some great insight. BMW are still doing well but it’s a globally very diverging market, especially between US and Europe. China has fierce local competition now from electric car brands. It’s evolve or die, and evolving is expensive. There are certain brands that will be basically dead in 10 years, like Infiniti or Dodge if they get it wrong. I’m glad BMW still have the budget to develop the interesting stuff but I think the next decade in cars is going to get very challenging and I wouldn’t be surprised to see some big casualties.

Great analysis

[M2audioman]

😂 Who are these people willing to pay this kind of money for a car with 200mi of range?! The depreciation on this thing is going to be severe. Especially as battery degradation kicks in and the actual range drops below 200mi in a year or so. So many better EVs out there with more range and similar features for equal or less money. Lucid, Tesla, Merc, Audi, Porsche, etc. Honestly, releasing a luxury car like this in 2024 with range that bad is a joke.

[JMD]

Ok,..I watched Joe's vid on the i5 M60,...and the biggest thing he left me with was this,...it is my opinion he was afraid to be a top tier YouTube auto reviewer that actually says he 'LIKES' the i5 M60 for what it is! I mean,...really! I mean, I've yet to drive the i5 M60,...so I can't say whether or not if BMW did well with the G60! But! But!! But!!! I will say this,...and I know this,...I drove the i4 M50,...and if there was a way for BMW to pipe in exactly 100% B58 sounds,...at various gear changes,...engine speeds, etc., other than the weight difference one would be hard press to know if they were in the ICE version or EV version of the i4 M50. However, I suppose a tale-tale sign would be the WHOPPING Torque Hit one experiences from .000001 RPM. The i4 M50 is quite solid,...and I certainly would not expect BMW to build a cheesy 5-series. That said, I will make it a point to go test drive an i5 M60 as soon as I can.

Joe,...if you're get around to reading this,...c'mon man, be your own man and be truthful about the i5 M60.

Lastly, if you were expecting sounds and nuances of an "ICE" when driving the i5 M60,...the I would suggest you stick only to reviewing ICE vehicles,...of which, you appear to be more honest with your audience. Because that review you did on the i5 M60 didn't cut the mustard! I mean, if you don't have no more than 20 minutes to evaluate a vehicle,...then why even bother!

So, there you have it,...my review of Joe's review.

Lastly,...I cannot wait 'til you guys line up the i4 M50,...the i5 M60,...and their competition and equivalent ICE versions and see who crosses the finish lines first. I mean,...you guys often measure the soul of a vehicle by it's 0-60 times. I don't know about you,...or a bag full of other auto reviews,...but I can easily recall that even though there were many cars made 'back-in-the-day' that were faster than BMWs to,...say, 60 Mph,...or even the 1/4 mile. However,...and this is extremely important,...once you through in a few curves,...some dog legs,...some double switch backs,...those in non-BMWs final understand,...it's not about the straight line stuff - it's about the Handling,...and that is something many,...I mean many car reviewers miss in their evaluation! And very lastly,...then came the Legendary E28 ///M5,...and that's when BMW took the gloves off,...and start the ///M beat-down on offerings from many manufacturers. I distinctly recall that I do not remember breathing the first time behind the steering wheel of a Dakar Yellow M3,...test driven at Casey BMW in Hampton, VA. Good Lord!

PS: C'mon Joe,...be honest to yourself,...and your viewers.

[mckman]

Originally Posted by AP

Out of interest, those in the U.K. may notice that the road he was on the same road that other YouTubers use, namely harry metcalfe and “number 27”

I’ve driven on it myself and it is a good driving road , can see why they choose it
That s bend with the dip is quite a challenging bend. On my m550, the satnav warns you about this being a dangerous curve

Thanks! I regularly watch Harry's Garage. Kind of thought that might be the same road.

[M2audioman]

Originally Posted by JMD

Ok,..I watched Joe's vid on the i5 M60,...and the biggest thing he left me with was this,...it is my opinion he was afraid to be a top tier YouTube auto reviewer that actually says he 'LIKES' the i5 M60 for what it is! I mean,...really! I mean, I've yet to drive the i5 M60,...so I can't say whether or not if BMW did well with the G60! But! But!! But!!! I will say this,...and I know this,...I drove the i4 M50,...and if there was a way for BMW to pipe in exactly 100% B58 sounds,...at various gear changes,...engine speeds, etc., other than the weight difference one would be hard press to know if they were in the ICE version or EV version of the i4 M50. However, I suppose a tale-tale sign would be the WHOPPING Torque Hit one experiences from .000001 RPM. The i4 M50 is quite solid,...and I certainly would not expect BMW to build a cheesy 5-series. That said, I will make it a point to go test drive an i5 M60 as soon as I can.

Joe,...if you're get around to reading this,...c'mon man, be your own man and be truthful about the i5 M60.

Lastly, if you were expecting sounds and nuances of an "ICE" when driving the i5 M60,...the I would suggest you stick only to reviewing ICE vehicles,...of which, you appear to be more honest with your audience. Because that review you did on the i5 M60 didn't cut the mustard! I mean, if you don't have no more than 20 minutes to evaluate a vehicle,...then why even bother!

So, there you have it,...my review of Joe's review.

Lastly,...I cannot wait 'til you guys line up the i4 M50,...the i5 M60,...and their competition and equivalent ICE versions and see who crosses the finish lines first. I mean,...you guys often measure the soul of a vehicle by it's 0-60 times. I don't know about you,...or a bag full of other auto reviews,...but I can easily recall that even though there were many cars made 'back-in-the-day' that were faster than BMWs to,...say, 60 Mph,...or even the 1/4 mile. However,...and this is extremely important,...once you through in a few curves,...some dog legs,...some double switch backs,...those in non-BMWs final understand,...it's not about the straight line stuff - it's about the Handling,...and that is something many,...I mean many car reviewers miss in their evaluation! And very lastly,...then came the Legendary E28 ///M5,...and that's when BMW took the gloves off,...and start the ///M beat-down on offerings from many manufacturers. I distinctly recall that I do not remember breathing the first time behind the steering wheel of a Dakar Yellow M3,...test driven at Casey BMW in Hampton, VA. Good Lord!

PS: C'mon Joe,...be honest to yourself,...and your viewers.

You gotta chill on the number of commas and periods you use. It's overwhelming.

Also, I've driven the i5 M60. It's fine. Nothing special. A Model 3 Performance drives much better. So does the Lucid Air, Model S and Porsche Taycan. The ONLY comparable car the i5 drives better than is the EQE imo. I own 2 Teslas currently, I'm adding a Lotus Emira to my stable this month after selling my M2. I won't even consider a BMW EV until they get their design back on track and offer cars with a minimum of 350mi of range.

Stop buying the i5 to teach BMW a lesson. It is a car with subpar EV tech at a ridiculous price point given its competition.

[AP]

Yeh it’s a great road to drive on just north of Burford

Back to his review
Whilst I don’t personally like the car, there is obviously some good aspects to it
The ride . A lot of that may be due to bmw choosing to put normal rather than run flat tyres on, even with 21 inch tyres in this case
Handling , he states it’s good despite it weight

Comfort again good.

But for me I think the idea is flawed. The range just isn’t enough for me especially when I don’t have anywhere to charge at home

The artificial noise , I would have to turn that off as it irritated just watching the video! Seems very gimmicky

Interior ( I say in one at the Munich IAA ) just do want do it for me. Whether you like idrive 8.5 or not, there is certainly a feeling it doesn’t look as expensive as the g30.

The price , ok that may work leasing for business but private buyers, that’s a huge jump over a similarly specced m550 which you might argue is it’s natural predecessor based upon performance.

At the end of the day, it didn’t matter what any of us think, if you like fair enough. But I think bmw could have done better , we know what they are capable of

Be interesting to see what residuals are like in 3 years as that will determine lease rates then.

What’s interesting is how string views are about these new EVs, on both sides.

[dazzapb]

Originally Posted by M2audioman

😂 Who are these people willing to pay this kind of money for a car with 200mi of range?! The depreciation on this thing is going to be severe. Especially as battery degradation kicks in and the actual range drops below 200mi in a year or so. So many better EVs out there with more range and similar features for equal or less money. Lucid, Tesla, Merc, Audi, Porsche, etc. Honestly, releasing a luxury car like this in 2024 with range that bad is a joke.

Battery degradation in a year? You mean 15 years? Jeez so much hate. Depreciation at the end of term? Couldn’t care less if that’s factored in the lease/financial product this is true of all EVs. Not all of us need over 200 miles of range. If you are searching for quality then many of those brands are out definitely Tesla

[IcEWoLF]

I like the new M60 but range is also a problem. The range needs to be 300 miles plus at least before most people would consider this.

If I were in the market for a new car I’d try to get my hands on a lightly used 2023 M550.

[SweEngineer]

Joe is a credible guy, knowing he is a BMW enthusiast and have owned several BMWs.
I recently drove the i5 M60 and was a bit disappointed also.
Sure it's very fast and corners well, the suspension was really good also but that's about it. But how can an EV get exciting? They are fast but soulless. I own an EV6 gt-line, same history there. By the way the ev6 has been an excellent car and drives amazing.

My biggest gripes with the g60 is that it's a bit compromised due to lacking interior quality.
Don't like that leather can't be had on the dash, ugly seats, too much hard plastic here and there. The lack of buttons sure doesn't make it better. The Hans Zimmer sounds made me cringe so turned it off immediately. G30 sure feels and is a more expensive interior.

So all in all after the drive, got back in my car and felt. Oh I'm not missing out on much at all driving a KIA. Bash me all you want, but ev6 Is half the price and comes with the same range, great comfort and options with excellent quality. Sure the infotainment isn't up there but you get my point.

Maybe what I'm trying to say Is that for these crazy prices you'd want more excellence and not compromises.

[Theophilus]

Since range is a persistent complaint here, I wonder if it’s feasible for BMW to improve range with a software update. I believe Lucid did something like this.

[AP]

They might be able to tweak it by limiting power but it’s probably down to how efficient the power train is.
Harry’s garage has mentioned in some of his review that some cars just are not that efficient which dents thei range. Mercedes had that prototype car that was far more efficient and produced a ice like range so it can be done

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by Mac545

I completely understand, but there’s no opposition….(in my situation)
I’ve had a ‘15 M5 and loved it, I’ve had a Clio V6, a Subaru Impreza STI blobeye, an Audi S6 V10….and I LOVE the noise… the drama…..
But I love acceleration, because speed means nothing. Acceleration is what you feel. Electric cars have that in abundance……

I’m coming from a Tesla 3 performance which has been brilliant. I’ve loved every minute, apart from auto wipers lol.

Merc’s look awful, Audi Etron gt is old now, porsche Taycan is nice looking but again old, and ridiculous option list makes leasing unrealistic.

Sooooo, that’s why BMW i5 M60 is my choice……best of all worlds as I can work out….

Clio V6? nice.

[secretariat]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Exactly the same vehicles, I see no difference.

Then again, I crashed my M2 into an 18-wheeler this morning that just showed up out of nowhere in front of me in a one lane road with no intersections

Victimhood, speed much?

[MrDit]

Originally Posted by M2audioman

😂 Who are these people willing to pay this kind of money for a car with 200mi of range?! The depreciation on this thing is going to be severe. Especially as battery degradation kicks in and the actual range drops below 200mi in a year or so. So many better EVs out there with more range and similar features for equal or less money. Lucid, Tesla, Merc, Audi, Porsche, etc. Honestly, releasing a luxury car like this in 2024 with range that bad is a joke.

I am one of those people, looked at some others you mentioned but ended up with the i5 M60 and very happy with it.

[msej449]

I think that Joe’s ambivalence about the car reflects a deeper contradiction, namely that the concept of an ‘M’ version doesn’t really align with an EV. You don’t have to do that much to get an EV to outperform an ICEV all other things being equal. So if you buy an EV ‘M’ then you’ll get a significantly superior powertrain, but as he implies, after a short while that becomes a bit ‘meh’, in part because there’s no associated soundtrack and no need for intervention by the driver, other than to put their foot down and get that immediate and linear pull. So what’s left is the undoubted excellence of BMW suspension and handling of a relatively heavy road car. Which is fine, but no compensation if your mental model of an ‘M’ involves lots of noise, gear changes and paddle control.

[Richbot]

Disclaimer: I've not tried an i5 but I think I need to help some enthusiasts out there understand the electric future doesn't have to suck

We've put 44,000 miles on an EV with about 250 miles of "real" highway range, in 38 months. Almost all of it was local driving, but at least 4000 of it has been road trips. Unlike our Tesla (a Model X Long Range Plus with 371 miles of rated range, lollerskates, that we bought instead of buying a traditional 3-row crossover) the BMW's actually meet or exceed their rated ranges, sometimes to an absurd degree. So unlike on a Tesla, 200 on the dash is 200 in freezing cold uphill both ways with no shoes on. Sortof like an F90 M5 has 600hp, at the wheels, on 85 octane at 9000' above sea level, with two spark plugs out

Electric drive is awesome. I also have an E90 M3 and the brain-foot-go feedback loop is better than the E90M from a "throttle response" perspective, leaving aside the fact that it's effortlessly quick, and I have a "slow" EV by EV standards, the Model X is nothing special, it's a squidgy soft heavy people-carrier that weighs 5600lb empty and is on the most milquetoast of tall-sidewall low rolling resistance tires, yet it delivers legitimately decent performance around a corner because a) immediate line adjustments with the throttle at a very granular level and b) the CG really is really, really low. Instead of engine noise you can hear what the tires are doing, which is important, because the tires are being punished mercilessly by all that mass. But you can feel what's going on, and it's exploitable, and predictable. These are things people who like to drive, ought to like. While I'm not much of a fan of the overall driving experience, the performance of the "fast" Teslas is brain-warping, particularly around ac orner where your brain doesn't understand how a car on such narrow tires, that is so heavy, can do such heroic things.

And if you just want A Good Daily Driver, the base, RWD, Model 3 is one of the best BMW 3-series ever sold, low grip, playful chassis, not expensive, small, steering not corrupted by a front motor, it's wonderful. I'm sure the 40e i4 rear-drive is similar - removing yet another droning 2.0turbo 4cylinder and replacing it with electric drive is the best thing I can think of to happen to the 3-series since the invention of 3-year leases

So I've sampled the electric future, as a long-time club racer, car enthusiast, and car appreciator, in the real world, and I give it a thumbs-up. Tesla, ehhh whatever, the cars are interesting enough but nothing special and underengineered in a lot of ways that make it annoying to live with, but electric drive? yayyy! Every car has big-block torque and naturally aspirated throttle response again!

Range ends up being a non-issue so long as you can charge overnight at home. If you can't, don't buy an EV.

If you want to road trip, don't buy an EV either, unless you're somebody who doesn't mind stopping a lot more than in your gas vehicle. With little kids it's not a big deal you're stopping a lot to stretch legs anyway, but for me personally, I don't road-trip outside of a ~350 mile radius from STL in the Tesla, just not worth the extra time. Unless I'm traveling for work, then I can get work done during the charge stops. We use our other cars for that stuff

I wouldn't own an EV as my only car, but as a two-car solution where one is an i5 M60 and the other is *insert gas vehicle*, that's a pretty nice setup. If you can turn off the voice assistant that is

That being said, i really only like electric drive because it can spice up what would otherwise be a boring, slow, high-CG tippy longstockings crossover experience for me. We wanted a 7-seater so we cross-shopped with GLS, X7, Tahoe, Sequioa, Land Cruiser etc. when we bought this thing, I wans't cross-shopping it with an M5; if I was, the Tesla's driving dynamics (holy shit, it's got room for 7 people but drives like a car!) wouldn't have been such a big differentiator. So far, there is no EV that is all that exciting as an enthusiast car to me, and I've tried a lot including Taycan and the various Tesla "fast" versions, and cheaper stuff like Mini SE and i3 and Bolt and etc. Taycan is aloof, Tesla's performance trims are half-baked particularly in ride/handling balance.

I'm still waiting for a proper small, quick, rear-drive EV that truly maximizes the potential for fun. I'm a little worried BMW M is going for Infinite Smash instead of taking the opportunity to make a lighter, funner, smaller experience out of their first EV. Cayman/Boxster EV may be the first attempt at a truly "fun as the first mission" ground-up EV that isn't just LOOK AT HOW MANY TORQUES WE HAVE

But the 5-series has always been a bit of a snooze, that's kind of the point, good dynamics that don't take center stage because it's meant to be a comfortable quiet executive sedan. I don't remember getting excited about the 540i 6-speed I drove and then ended up buying yet another 3-series instead. It was a fine car but it wasn't for people like me. The E60 non-M's did a nicer job from behind the wheel, but there were other uh...issues inflicted on us by Chris Bangle and the iDrive team. F10 was a total snoozefest, and the next model continued the "this is actually a 7-series" tradition up to present day.

And I can't stress this enough, if you don't want an EV, don't buy one, I promise nobody will make you.