[phatr1s]

Originally Posted by ClarkGriswold

Don't get me wrong, I am torn with the idea of bailing out GM and the other U.S. automakers, but what we need to realize is the mass effect that would have on our economy.

There is very little that GM atually produces. The majority of the components of the GM car is a product of outsourcing. If GM fails, 2,100 other companies that supply GM with parts fails with it. Not to mention the mass job loss.

That being said, they need to eliminate labor unions. They do not promote capitalism and they do not nourish a competitive marketplace.

Just my 2 cents.... but I still am torn on the idea.

I agreed with you with the Domino effect to other company's, but you can not ask for money now when for years they did not innovate anything and to believe that selling SUV's was the future... C'mon.

[ejheverest]

when your digging yourself a hole, the best thing you can do is put down the shovel. enough with the short term bailouts that don't help long term.

[asdflkijd]

against

[phrozen06]

1. The CEO's that caused this problem should be fired.

2. The business model of the big 3 needs to be revamped or the problem will come back again.

3. People keep saying it's a loan rather than a bail out but how the hell are the car companies going to pay back that money. They have been woefully inadequate and haven't turned a profit in years.

[nmulax]

Rather then a bailout and recognizing the devastating effect of bankruptcy, what about the government buying GM?

Do what Renault did in the mid 80s. With a deficit over $12b, the French government took control, put in a new chairman, sold non-core assets, closed all racing programs, did layoffs, and within 3 years they were profitable. Not saying it'd go the exact same way, but that would solve some of the issues.

[achien]

bankruptcy is the best way to break the union...

[1cleanm6]

i am for it......

rescue asap!

[scottwww]

No to bailouts! That means all of them. Take back the money that has already been spent on bailouts. It wasn't the governments money in the first place. It was my money, your money, the next generation's money. It has to stop!

[nmulax]

Originally Posted by achien

bankruptcy is the best way to break the union...

Yes, but then they're faced with the potential backlash of being unable to secure the necessary financing. Trust me, I agree that bankruptcy is necessary to break contract with the union - but they need an agreement for financing once they restructure.

[nmulax]

Originally Posted by scottwww

No to bailouts! That means all of them. Take back the money that has already been spent on bailouts. It wasn't the governments money in the first place. It was my money, your money, the next generation's money. It has to stop!

That would be a nice approach. If all the bailout money was divided amongst the taxpayers, people could pay off their debt, and the rest of the money would be reinvested back into the economy.

[Jet335i]

Originally Posted by nmulax

Rather then a bailout and recognizing the devastating effect of bankruptcy, what about the government buying GM?

Do what Renault did in the mid 80s. With a deficit over $12b, the French government took control, put in a new chairman, sold non-core assets, closed all racing programs, did layoffs, and within 3 years they were profitable. Not saying it'd go the exact same way, but that would solve some of the issues.

yeah then everyone who doesn't already think obama is a socialist will really throw a hissy fit.

I agree with a couple of the guys who have said they'd be all about letting them die if it didn't have such a profound ripple effect on GM's suppliers, and those supplier's employees, etc. The latest figures have the amount of jobs lost at around 1.6million...imagine 90% of those people on unemployment??

I'm all about getting rid of the strangle-hold the unions have and I firmly believe that GM will be back for more money in less than 6 months unless there's new management and a new philosophy. BUT...I just don't think, with everything else going on, that they could secure financing under chapter 11 and come out a better company on their own.

It's definitely putting the government between a rock and a hard place...I'm for it (with some strict terms, like getting rid of management, restructuring the labor agreements), but it seems like the cure is worse than the disease.

The economist in me is just screaming "fuck 'em".

[!Xoible]

Originally Posted by nmulax

Yes, but then they're faced with the potential backlash of being unable to secure the necessary financing. Trust me, I agree that bankruptcy is necessary to break contract with the union - but they need an agreement for financing once they restructure.

not if they go chapter 7, not 11

[ArmyBimmerDude]

Imagine if they really could weather this storm with a bailout and become successful again. Their stock prices right now are so cheap, I'd buy as much as I could.

I'm against the bailout, but really anyone living in the north, around Michigan is going to vote FOR it because that state is fucked if it doesnt happen. We'll have 49.5 states then.

[Deda]

against it!

[OBI_agent]

I know that they have been mismanaged but I'm for it because I dont want so many people losing out their jobs. I think the 'Big 3' are integral part of US economy, so if they all fall, we all fall.

[achenator]

Originally Posted by OBI_agent

I know that they have been mismanaged but I'm for it because I dont want so many people losing out their jobs. I think the 'Big 3' are integral part of US economy, so if they all fall, we all fall.

The govt. wont let em go under. The govt. buys as many cars as anyone. The auto business is vital to national security. They wont' let the nation's auto supply be controlled strictly by foreign companies.

[Nyulak]

The writing has been on the wall for years. When companies abuse their loyalty and foster crap onto the buying public, they don't deserve any help from the public to resuscitate them. I have owned Ford vehicles and was actually quite happy with my '98 Crown Victoria. Due to my modding habits, I popped the engine. That's not Ford's fault by any means, but I did buy other Ford cars due to my good experience with the CV. Not ever really let down with reliability (except for the Lincoln LS, but that was a dealership service problem), I just couldn't find the value in purchasing a Ford product versus the other brands.

I sent Ford letters on two different occasions to let them know exactly why I wouldn't purchase any of the cars in the future. On one occasion, Ford actually called me about the letter and I had an 11 minute conversation with them. They actually asked my permission to forward my comments to the engineers for review and to contact me if the engineers had any questions. I was willing to help, but they never spoke to me after that.

Now, I'm not jaded with them. I would purchase their vehicles again if the value was there, but I don't want mediocre. Since they made their mess, they should have to clean it up themselves is all I am saying.

[scottwww]

How did this thread get over here:

BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BimmerPost Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos > for or against automobile bailouts?

[Lewis@MWDesign]

I am for bailing them out under the condition that the management will have to go through huge revamping. Maybe take out the unions for one...

The BIG3 has been making biggest loads of crap for over a decade, or maybe even longer than that. I don't how many American cars I have seen where I ask myself "who the hell designed this? 5 year olds?"

To be honest, its about time union protected workers realize that what has been protecting them maybe the cause of the company's ultimate fall. Was never for unions and never will be.

Minimum wage = yes but unions = no.

Hard working people should be promoted accordingly and promotions should never be based on how long a person has been working at a company.

[Year's_End]

against

[sageashton]

Originally Posted by ClarkGriswold

Don't get me wrong, I am torn with the idea of bailing out GM and the other U.S. automakers, but what we need to realize is the mass effect that would have on our economy.

There is very little that GM atually produces. The majority of the components of the GM car is a product of outsourcing. If GM fails, 2,100 other companies that supply GM with parts fails with it. Not to mention the mass job loss.

That being said, they need to eliminate labor unions. They do not promote capitalism and they do not nourish a competitive marketplace.

Just my 2 cents.... but I still am torn on the idea.

Socialism and capitalism are two seperate systems and don't mix. Thus if you enter a union into a capitalistic environmnet it goes to hell and a hand basket in a free market place.

Get rid of the damn unions! And that will never happen with a bail out. There I agree for sure. But, if the big three are not selling, what will a bail out do??? The othe 2100 companies are doomed with or without the bail out as all they will do is burn through the $$$ in R and D. No sales equals no production, which in turn equals no purchases from the other companies.

Put them up on the auction block and get a decent buyer that will fire the management and get started making a product tha actually sales (which is what BMW, Toyota and Honda seem to be able to do).

[Couch]

Originally Posted by ArmyBimmerDude

Imagine if they really could weather this storm with a bailout and become successful again. Their stock prices right now are so cheap, I'd buy as much as I could.

+1

First thing I thought when I checked out their stock prices last week.