[FuriouslyFast]

Originally Posted by m630

How so when Pcars often retain or even increase in value????

So the "value" point only counts when it works in favor of the car you like?

Also, not sure you can call a car "value" if the price goes up. Therefore, making it attainable for less people. C8 wins on value if that is what we are talking about.

/value discussion

[BMWILUVU]

They're both great cars.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

Porsche also moved the engine up again in the 992 and it’s even more mid engined. Notice how they have nearly the same weight distribution?
Either way, the 992 is still the top dog and to think the additional cars only get exponentially better.

I have to once again point out that a 911 is not mid-engined:

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

I have to once again point out that a 911 is not mid-engined:

You left out the Fiero

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

I have to once again point out that a 911 is not mid-engined:

Yes as a 4 time 911 owner/current owner and a 2 time Cayman owner I am well aware. All I was saying was the engine again moved close to what a mid-engine would be. I am talking about the degree of which the engine is where it is.
Did you notice that while the C8 is “mid-engined” is has nearly the same weight distribution as the 911? What should that tell you?

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

All I was saying was the engine again moved close to what a mid-engine would be.

Dude, it's not even close.

Don't confuse weight distribution with engine placement. While one affects the other, it's not as simple as you make it out to be. You can have weight at the extremes, forward or aft, and balance it out with more weight at the other extreme, achieving "perfect" or "optimal" weight distribution as far as % for and aft, but that doesn't mean good handling, because your polar moments are so extreme when the car starts rotating, it won't stop. Your claim that the car is "more mid-engined" is ridiculous, no, it's a rear-engine, it always has been, it's clearly shown in the picture. If they are doing what they can to make the weight distribution decent so there's enough weight on the front tires, great, but it doesn't make it "more mid-engined". The entire premise of that is contrary to the layout of the car.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Dude, it's not even close.

Don't confuse weight distribution with engine placement. While one affects the other, it's not as simple as you make it out to be. You can have weight at the extremes, forward or aft, and balance it out with more weight at the other extreme, achieving "perfect" or "optimal" weight distribution as far as % for and aft, but that doesn't mean good handling, because your polar moments are so extreme when the car starts rotating, it won't stop. Your claim that the car is "more mid-engined" is ridiculous, no, it's a rear-engine, it always has been, it's clearly shown in the picture. If they are doing what they can to make the weight distribution decent so there's enough weight on the front tires, great, but it doesn't make it "more mid-engined". The entire premise of that is contrary to the layout of the car.

I am not confusing the two - just making reference to how the C8 is. Yes I am purposely being very simple about it. I do think when 991 was introduced the shift of moving the entire engine forward 1 inch was meaningful and the leap from 997 to 991 was pretty drastic. Granted the 991 and 992 are really just Grand Tourers. I never said the 911 was a Cayman or Boxster, bc that it isn’t. I hope it never ends up that way bc love the rear engines platform and drive. It clearly has a winning pedigree. Should they go to a true mid engine platform like the 911 RSR that won WEC I don’t see why you’d even make a cayman anymore. What they need is a true halo car above the 2RS which is a high HP mid-engined car like the CGT or 918.

If I remember it, the C8 is more rear biased due to the gearbox. I spent a lot of time in my friends C7 Z and I think people tend to forget that the C7 was a front mid car that was a good chassis, even if the Z was a handful when pushing to 8/9/10/10ths.

That all said, it appears that despite stickier tires, ~15% more hp, ~25% more torque, the C8 is slower than an 992S in a straight and by good margin on track. Beyond that, it’s sounds like it’s not as balanced on handling and has issues with its braking. To me, anyone can make a fast car - there are tons of examples of that. But to have a car that is dialed in from every angle, every measurement and movement is where the 911 separates itself by large margin from other cars that are fast.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Dude, it's not even close.

Don't confuse weight distribution with engine placement. While one affects the other, it's not as simple as you make it out to be. You can have weight at the extremes, forward or aft, and balance it out with more weight at the other extreme, achieving "perfect" or "optimal" weight distribution as far as % for and aft, but that doesn't mean good handling, because your polar moments are so extreme when the car starts rotating, it won't stop. Your claim that the car is "more mid-engined" is ridiculous, no, it's a rear-engine, it always has been, it's clearly shown in the picture. If they are doing what they can to make the weight distribution decent so there's enough weight on the front tires, great, but it doesn't make it "more mid-engined". The entire premise of that is contrary to the layout of the car.

And yet the 911 seems to get around a track pretty well. I suspect the C8 is going to be a fantastic car and will likely get better as time passes and improvements are made.

[eluded]

Same news,
Different decade(s)

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by m630

... This 992 was underpowered and still beat it in every measurable way.
...

That’s not true. They measured the Vette faster to 60 and also in the 1/4. More anecdotal than measurements, but they also said the DCT was just as good as PDK, and it was a lot more comfortable. I don’t think the gap is as wide as you’re hoping it to be.

[heavyD^2]

First of all I'm no GM fan and in regards to the C8 I would stay away from the first few years of the car while they work out the typical GM bugs. That said there's little doubt in my mind in a couple of years GM will have a version of the C8 that will outperform the 911. Like the Supra the C8 was rushed out as a half finished product somewhat neutered out of the gate. They haven't had enough time to perfect the handling and dialed in understeer so the first batch of owners don't end up driving their cars into the ditch. You only have to see how far they came with the C7 or the current Camaro to see that GM can do handling as good or better than anyone and in time they will get this right. There's already been a lot of talk about how incredibly compliant the C8's ride is on the street so that's already a win for most buyers that don't track their cars.

I don't think anyone argues that the C8 will ever have the prestige of a Porsche but I don't understand the posts from some claiming that value doesn't matter. It absolutely matters as if two product perform nearly equally and one is significantly cheaper it's clearly the better product for everyone except those that want the cachet that comes with the Porsche badge or those who have a lot of money where value is not a consideration.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

That’s not true. They measured the Vette faster to 60 and also in the 1/4. More anecdotal than measurements, but they also said the DCT was just as good as PDK, and it was a lot more comfortable. I don’t think the gap is as wide as you’re hoping it to be.

That's funny, because previous generation Corvette would always lose out to their Porsche counterparts in the 0-60 and 1/4 mile, but beat them in the other performance measurables like handling, skid-pad, figure 8, breaking etc.

Looks like the script is flipped, that the C8 is faster in the straight but slower in the corners.

This is likely a make-up flag in 'Murkan football, where a referee (M&T) called a phantom foul (initial review not so glowing), then had to throw a make-up flag for another none-existing foul against the other team because they got an earful from the coach (GM).

The truth, as they say, lies somewhere in-between.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

That said there's little doubt in my mind in a couple of years GM will have a version of the C8 that will outperform the 911.

That's highly unlikely.

Jim Mero, who's been in charge of chassis development for GM for 30+ years, and has been responsible for the C5, C6, and C7 chassis engineering, recently retired shortly before the C8s start their suspension development cycle. He went on multiple podcasts and interviews and dropped a few nuggets.

To summarize and paraphrase, he though that the Corvette was already beating almost ALL of their mid and rear engine competitors handily, that when GM decided to move the Corvette to a mid engine layout he didn't think the mid engine is going to really challenge for handling supremacy. He had openly questioned the rationale for the C8 to go mid engine, until someone from GM probably told him to STFU and he had to back track.

I think, by GM going mid engine on the C8, the fruit of that labor won't really show up until 2-3 generations later. Corvettes up to C7 has had 50+ years of research and development to nearly perfect the front engine, rear wheel drive layout, to a point where it's winning the battle in most of the areas that count wrt performance, against not only FE-RWD competition, but against ME, RE, RWD and AWD competitions on and off the track. Now the coin has been flipped, that they're starting with a brand new slate on a brand new layout, against companies and teams that has had more than half a century to perfect their existing platform. That's a HUGE step back, all the knowledge gained on how to squeeze out that last ounce of performance out of a FE-RWD car is dumped in favor of ME-RWD, that's why you're seeing a HUGE step back in a wide swath of performance metrics (lateral grip, figure 8, braking, etc are all worse than C7 despite using a much more advanced rubber) except for straight-line acceleration.

I think it's going to take until the C10 (not the truck) generation Corvette until they can make the mid engine formula outcompete Porsche in most of its performance categories, and frankly, by that time, it's going to be likely a battle of electric motors and battery capacity, not V8 vs Boxster 6.

[N54Yankee]

thats not necessarily true, not always as you say, Corvette has sometimes done better in either one or both of the parameters. Corvette and 911 has been swapping spots and trading punches many times over the rivalry.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...parison-tests/

[Red Bread]

Only a retiring old guy who had it as his baby could say that the front engine Corvette wasn't at a serious disadvantage. That dude is on ignore in my book. Bye Felicia.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by The HACK

That's highly unlikely.

Jim Mero, who's been in charge of chassis development for GM for 30+ years, and has been responsible for the C5, C6, and C7 chassis engineering, recently retired shortly before the C8s start their suspension development cycle. He went on multiple podcasts and interviews and dropped a few nuggets.

To summarize and paraphrase, he though that the Corvette was already beating almost ALL of their mid and rear engine competitors handily, that when GM decided to move the Corvette to a mid engine layout he didn't think the mid engine is going to really challenge for handling supremacy. He had openly questioned the rationale for the C8 to go mid engine, until someone from GM probably told him to STFU and he had to back track.

I think, by GM going mid engine on the C8, the fruit of that labor won't really show up until 2-3 generations later. Corvettes up to C7 has had 50+ years of research and development to nearly perfect the front engine, rear wheel drive layout, to a point where it's winning the battle in most of the areas that count wrt performance, against not only FE-RWD competition, but against ME, RE, RWD and AWD competitions on and off the track. Now the coin has been flipped, that they're starting with a brand new slate on a brand new layout, against companies and teams that has had more than half a century to perfect their existing platform. That's a HUGE step back, all the knowledge gained on how to squeeze out that last ounce of performance out of a FE-RWD car is dumped in favor of ME-RWD, that's why you're seeing a HUGE step back in a wide swath of performance metrics (lateral grip, figure 8, braking, etc are all worse than C7 despite using a much more advanced rubber) except for straight-line acceleration.

I think it's going to take until the C10 (not the truck) generation Corvette until they can make the mid engine formula outcompete Porsche in most of its performance categories, and frankly, by that time, it's going to be likely a battle of electric motors and battery capacity, not V8 vs Boxster 6.

There's a difference between being in charge of a department and being the footsoldiers that actively did the engineering and tuning. I highly doubt him leaving will have any effect on GM's chassis development going forward. He's also holds an opinion which is clearly debateable in that they were beating their competitors "handedly" for handling supremacy. There's little doubt the C7 was a success but current engine technology has outpaced the front engine chassis to the point where the C7 was likely the pinnacle. Also let's not forget that GM had decades to perfect the front engine chassis and in a matter of years they have come close to matching that with their first kick at the can (Fiero doesn't count) with mid engine. It may take years or maybe a full generation with C9 but they will exceed the limits of the C7.

[N54Yankee]

Not to take anything away from Mero, he served Corvette well over the years and his wheel work setting killer lap times in Corvettes are legendary but his time has come and gone. Time to pass the ball of to a younger, fresher running back. Technology marches forward and he was left behind. Fair winds Jim.
I’m confident the C8 will pretty easily pass the C7 variants in short order. Sports cars always do, especially in these days. Technology and power are running much faster then the used to. We now have quite a few 700hp cars and even a Jeep roaming the streets.

[Grumpy Old Man]

The C8 will likely be a killer in a few years and is no doubt something special right now, but honestly its now first generation of a new platform. Porsche 911 has been a work in progress for longer than most of the folks on this forum have been alive. They have taken a great sports car and made it into a true supercar. Patients grasshoppers.

[N54Yankee]

Know you guys spell funny up there ‘colour’ and all but Patients is a new one to me. ;

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

Know you guys spell funny up there ‘colour’ and all but Patients is a new one to me. ;

So colour is correct (color for you lot south of the border) and I've been drinking handing out candies to the little ones and Glenfidich to the grownups.

[WestRace]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review...ay-2019-review

Should I buy one?
While it is possible to portray this Corvette as a cut-price supercar, it really isn't. While the engine position has switched, the C8's primary mission is the same as that of its forebears: a powerful sports car that combines unbeatable bang per buck with respectable practicality. It doesn't have the dynamic focus or technical sophistication of a true supercar, but nor does it really want to be one.

It is also the slowest version of the C8, with faster versions set to include a new turbocharged overhead camshaft engine and a hybrid that will make something close to 1000 horsepower. Those will be better able to slay really big giants.

GM has said that the Corvette will ultimately be offered in right-hand drive; the big question is whether it will try harder with international sales than previous half-hearted efforts.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Only a retiring old guy who had it as his baby could say that the front engine Corvette wasn't at a serious disadvantage. That dude is on ignore in my book. Bye Felicia.

IIRC from the stories I've read, GM engineers felt they had reached the limit of the FE-RWD chassis capability to better the handling characteristics of the next gen 'Vette. Again, while GM may have stepped back on it's engineering heritage, if it's abandoned 50 years of front engine chassis development, the performance numbers between the C8 and the 911 are pretty damned close for a startup outfit like GM.