[N54Yankee]

Originally Posted by WestRace

I think past Corvette always had engines that the chassis couldn't handle. Only up till the C7 that they actually addressed that problem. With the new mid-engine chassis, I guess old habits die hard after all.

1000HP? I don't think the same formula - enormous hp with crappy chassis - will work anymore. The mid-engine is going to play in the big league. It seems a bit too late in the development cycle to find out. Corvette strikes again.

Oh, by the way, hopefully they got rid of the leaf springs.

Crappy chassis? That's over the top. I beg to differ with your opinion. Just going back to the C5 and C6 its pretty easy to see that Corvette is more then a match for the same generation of M3's. One just need to look at track times of factory Corvettes over the years to see that they're serious top contenders across the board in handling and also straight line performance.
https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/lvzugdlrmfal

Maybe Corvette will lose the leaf when BMW dumps the common family car macpherson struts and joins the upper end sports car party with a true wishbone suspension.
The transverse leaf has served very well for a long time, ingenious design that saves weight and allows lowering the car among other benefits. Again the cars handling performance points out that it works quite well.

We'll have to wait a see about the mid engine C7 but I'm confident it will surprise a lot of folks. When the C6 Z06 and the ZR1 came out they smoked many German and Italian top tier sports cars around the Ring and other tracks. Chevy knows how to build great performing Corvettes, just need some time to work out the kinks. Obviously more bugs with this whole new direction for the maker but I think they'll get it right.

Current C6 and 135 owner here who has extensive seat time in both brands voicing my opinion.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

its pretty easy to see that Corvette is more then a match for the same generation of M3's. One just need to look at track times of factory Corvettes over the years to see that they're serious top contenders across the board in handling and also straight line performance. .

Yet for some unexplainable reason, you go to an AER race which is 'run what you brung' format and people prefer driving ancient E36s than Vettes.
Like literally, there are zero or one Corvettes in the entire grid.

I don't care if a car can do one really hot lap and then it overheats. The Z06 showed very little to 'the world', other than it's hilarious how fast it overheats.

They are going to build a ridiculous mid engined car instead of fixing what they have today, which doesn't work well.

[Moonbat]

I had a convertible Firebird eons ago. After killing the rings with the first Vortech SC, had a balanced/blueprinted bored out block put in its place. Only 600Hp at the wheels, but it felt like the Hand of God pushing the car whenever I got into it. But I had to replace almost all the suspension, the rear end, added roll cage, etc. just to make it handle well. Miss her (sniffle).

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

Crappy chassis? That's over the top. I beg to differ with your opinion. Just going back to the C5 and C6 its pretty easy to see that Corvette is more then a match for the same generation of M3's. One just need to look at track times of factory Corvettes over the years to see that they're serious top contenders across the board in handling and also straight line performance.
https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/lvzugdlrmfal

Maybe Corvette will lose the leaf when BMW dumps the common family car macpherson struts and joins the upper end sports car party with a true wishbone suspension.
The transverse leaf has served very well for a long time, ingenious design that saves weight and allows lowering the car among other benefits. Again the cars handling performance points out that it works quite well.

We'll have to wait a see about the mid engine C7 but I'm confident it will surprise a lot of folks. When the C6 Z06 and the ZR1 came out they smoked many German and Italian top tier sports cars around the Ring and other tracks. Chevy knows how to build great performing Corvettes, just need some time to work out the kinks. Obviously more bugs with this whole new direction for the maker but I think they'll get it right.

Current C6 and 135 owner here who has extensive seat time in both brands voicing my opinion.

I never said the Corvette was slow on the contrary it was always fast. I was just saying the Corvette has always been hp power first then chassis which means they are fast but a bit of a handful.

I once test drove a C6 Corvette and to be honest, it felt like a boat. GM significantly beefed up the C7 chassis to improve the handling and the feel, but I haven't gotten chance to test drive a C7 so I am not sure how good it is. As I said, I really like the current C7 and Cadillac ATS/VTS and Camaro. I've test drove the Cadillac and I was very impressed.

As for your criticism of BMW using struts up front, well struts have its own advantage in term of lower unsprung weight but ultimately I agree that upper-lower control will prevail in handling especially at high speed. The original Cayman has struts in all four corners! and given its modest performing envelope, I actually think struts might be better. All of Porsche 911 have struts up front because their front ends don't have a lot of weight.

The transverse leaf springs allow Corvette to save weight and lower the overall height but I think it hurts the Corvette handling. I really hope they go with the conventional springs and shocks for the mid engine.

[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Yet for some unexplainable reason, you go to an AER race which is 'run what you brung' format and people prefer driving ancient E36s than Vettes.
Like literally, there are zero or one Corvettes in the entire grid.

I don't care if a car can do one really hot lap and then it overheats. The Z06 showed very little to 'the world', other than it's hilarious how fast it overheats.

They are going to build a ridiculous mid engined car instead of fixing what they have today, which doesn't work well.

Because those people don't want to pay for big tires and high fuel costs. This has nothing to do with the corvette's performance and more to do with the weight of pocket books.

[NoGuru]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeGeoff

Because those people don't want to pay for big tires and high fuel costs. This has nothing to do with the corvette's performance and more to do with the weight of pocket books.

When are you going to take me for a ride in the mid engine????
Does it have a manual?

[N54Yankee]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Yet for some unexplainable reason, you go to an AER race which is 'run what you brung' format and people prefer driving ancient E36s than Vettes.
Like literally, there are zero or one Corvettes in the entire grid.

I don't care if a car can do one really hot lap and then it overheats. The Z06 showed very little to 'the world', other than it's hilarious how fast it overheats.

They are going to build a ridiculous mid engined car instead of fixing what they have today, which doesn't work well.

Yeah because this is what happens when Corvette enter the AER pit. Most guys I know run their cars in SCCA and other organizations and don't bother with AER. Don't read too much into your perceived AER scarcity.

The C7Z has had some well known issues overheating but have since been corrected.
You make it sound like BMW never had major issues with their fleet. People are still fighting after years of production failing fuel pumps, rod bearings, injectors, water pumps, bad crankshafts and many other issues. It's not soley a Corvette problem. But some guys like to bitch incessantly about the competition. It's a very telling emotion and says a lot.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeGeoff

Because those people don't want to pay for big tires and high fuel costs. This has nothing to do with the corvette's performance and more to do with the weight of pocket books.

it likely has to do with the Corvette's reliability

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

Yeah because this is what happens when Corvette enter the AER pit. Most guys I know run their cars in SCCA and other organizations and don't bother with AER. Don't read too much into your perceived AER scarcity.

The C7Z has had some well known issues overheating but have since been corrected.
You make it sound like BMW never had major issues with their fleet. People are still fighting after years of production failing fuel pumps, injectors, water pumps, bad crankshafts and many other issues. It's not soley a Corvette problem. But some guys like to bitch incessantly about the competition. It's a very telling emotion and says a lot.

BMW has had plenty of issues. Hell it still does. But apparently their cars function at the track reliably which is more than can be said for other makes.

As stated earlier, I wish they built better cars so I could buy one. I think making the car mid engine fixes zero of the issues they have. None of the issues have to do with lack of performance, it already has plenty of that.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by WestRace

The problem in the Corvette seems to be the opposite. The M3 subframe is not strong enough so the force breaks it before it can extend to the chassis frame. On the Corvette, the subframe is stronger so the force gets to affect the entire car frame and warp it.

My beef with GM is their twisted logic. It's like they always want to cramp as much hp as possible then asked if the chassis can handle it and before they can find out, it's too late in the design cycle. Adding a cross bar here and there to strengthen the chassis is too much like 1980's garage technique - it's like a guy using some fancy words to impress people. You have to build the chassis to handle the engine from the ground up. It's a bad habits that they were able to overcome lately but it seems like the mid-engine chassis got them into a bit of a withdrawal.

Well the Corvette is a body-on-frame design (I'm assuming the C8 is as well - haven't yet read enough to be sure), where as the M3 (3-series) is a unibody design, so it is not an apples-to-apples engineering comparison. A unibody is much easier to engineer, in relationship to body twist and flex. And really, no data has been published as to how much flex (warp) is actually present with a power drop from a 1,000 HP engine in the C8 chassis. The glass engine cover shatters. Okay, so is that fixed by a sheetmetal part, or a redesign to the mounting scheme of the glass engine cover?

Yet everyone starts pissing on GM, without any facts or knowledge of other manufacturer's similar problems with other vehicle designs.

I for one, if a mid- engined Corvette can be had in the $60K range with 400 - 500 HP, I'd be interested (if it has a manual of course). BMW's offer? A $60K Toyota Z4... Hummmm.

[N54Yankee]

Originally Posted by WestRace

I never said the Corvette was slow on the contrary it was always fast. I was just saying the Corvette has always been hp power first then chassis which means they are fast but a bit of a handful.

I once test drove a C6 Corvette and to be honest, it felt like a boat. GM significantly beefed up the C7 chassis to improve the handling and the feel, but I haven't gotten chance to test drive a C7 so I am not sure how good it is. As I said, I really like the current C7 and Cadillac ATS/VTS and Camaro. I've test drove the Cadillac and I was very impressed.

As for your criticism of BMW using struts up front, well struts have its own advantage in term of lower unsprung weight but ultimately I agree that upper-lower control will prevail in handling especially at high speed. The original Cayman has struts in all four corners! and given its modest performing envelope, I actually think struts might be better. All of Porsche 911 have struts up front because their front ends don't have a lot of weight.

The transverse leaf springs allow Corvette to save weight and lower the overall height but I think it hurts the Corvette handling. I really hope they go with the conventional springs and shocks for the mid engine.

For the record I didn't say you said they were slow I just put up times to demonstrate they can and do handle well they fact that they bring good power to the table is a nice bonus.
I just mentioned the struts to point out your complaint about the transverse leaf isn't really an issue, struts work as does the leaf spring. I can take your point about your perception of Corvette handling( although many disagree) but I don't think you can attribute it to the leaf itself. Track times again demonstate that the car can lay down very good times. Most cars with let's say 500 can easily be driven sedately on the street but once the left foot gets real heavy they all become more of a white knuckle handful.
Porsche may use struts due to light front end, I never heard that but will take your word for it, it makes sense. BMW doesn't have that mid, rear engine issue though, they could use unequal length controls. Porsche also uses struts also to keep the chassis narrower.
Both Corvette and M3 are killer cars and the completion between the two improves both breeds.

[N54Yankee]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

BMW has had plenty of issues. Hell it still does. But apparently their cars function at the track reliably which is more than can be said for other makes.

As stated earlier, I wish they built better cars so I could buy one. I think making the car mid engine fixes zero of the issues they have. None of the issues have to do with lack of performance, it already has plenty of that.

Personally I've seen more BMW's go into limp mode on the track than any other make. You point out the C7Z overheating issues but neglect all Corvettes that have and still do rack up podiums on tracks all over. Overall the Corvette is a proven, solid performer on the race track.
We'll both have to wait and see what the mid Vette does just speculating on what one thinks it won't do isn't realistic.

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

For the record I didn't say you said they were slow I just put up times to demonstrate they can and do handle well they fact that they bring good power to the table is a nice bonus.
I just mentioned the struts to point out your complaint about the transverse leaf isn't really an issue, struts work as does the leaf spring. I can take your point about your perception of Corvette handling( although many disagree) but I don't think you can attribute it to the leaf itself. Track times again demonstate that the car can lay down very good times. Most cars with let's say 500 can easily be driven sedately on the street but once the left foot gets real heavy they all become more of a white knuckle handful.
Porsche may use struts due to light front end, I never heard that but will take your word for it, it makes sense. BMW doesn't have that mid, rear engine issue though, they could use unequal length controls. Porsche also uses struts also to keep the chassis narrower.
Both Corvette and M3 are killer cars and the completion between the two improves both breeds.

This is a typical front struts on all 911 including the GT3.


https://www.elephantracing.com/tech-...sion-overview/

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yet everyone starts pissing on GM, without any facts or knowledge of other manufacturer's similar problems with other vehicle designs.

I guess it's fair to wait until the final product. Let's hope it won't get delay over and over again.

I am not sure GM can make a mid engine for around 60K since the current car already costs around 60K or more. Probably just a marketing hype.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

i really think since HP and TQ are becoming so affordable that a seperate driving license should be given to anyone with over 500bph and 400 tq.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

BMW has had plenty of issues. Hell it still does. But apparently their cars function at the track reliably which is more than can be said for other makes.

As stated earlier, I wish they built better cars so I could buy one. I think making the car mid engine fixes zero of the issues they have. None of the issues have to do with lack of performance, it already has plenty of that.

Of the articles I've read about the C7, it's been stated that GM has reached the limit of performance that can be rung out of the front engine/rear drive platform. The logical engineering development and evolution to gain additional performance is to move the engine to a mid chassis location. Also, the engine changes to an overhead cam design from the shorter and more compact pushrod LS engine, which requires a mid-engine design to accommodate a taller overhead cam engine envelope.

Maybe we should keep zipped up until the car actually debuts and is tested. The Corvette has always been a sports car attempt to offer a high level of performance with some constraint on MSRP. There is nothing wrong with engineering to that goal.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by WestRace

I guess it's fair to wait until the final product. Let's hope it won't get delay over and over again.

I am not sure GM can make a mid engine for around 60K since the current car already costs around 60K or more. Probably just a marketing hype.

Me too. One of the Corvettes advantage was the engine was basically shared with every other GM V8 vehicle, which saves on engine development and production cost. But, we should see what GM makes of the effort at least.

[Rmtt]

I'm a current C6 owner and recent 128i owner for a daily.

Never have had the first issue with any of the 6+ Corvettes I have owned in the past... All C5's and 2 C6's.

All very easy to work on, huge aftermarket options, and make nice power with minor changes.

I wanted a 135 as a daily, but the stories I read all over the net pushed me to the 128 for reliability issues.

The 128 is a great daily driver, and satisfied my needs for a fun car to commute with.

But when I want to just get out and cruise with a car that has 450/450+ to the rear wheels that drives very tame, and handles/corners just as good....I pull out the C6.

It wouldn't scare me to take off in it across the country if I wanted to, and is actually very comfortable especially compared to the C5.

And as far as adding more power, you can go quite a ways while still retaining reliability. I've had 600 hp+ vetted in the past that drove completely like stock aside from a little stiffer clutch pedal.

Not trying to sway anyone one way or the other, but I've enjoyed both brands. Had a e46 330 coupe and M3 in the past as DD's.....but have always had a Corvette as a weekend fun car that I can pull the top off of... and Just "tool" around in.

[spazzyfry123]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Yet for some unexplainable reason, you go to an AER race which is 'run what you brung' format and people prefer driving ancient E36s than Vettes.
Like literally, there are zero or one Corvettes in the entire grid.

I don't care if a car can do one really hot lap and then it overheats. The Z06 showed very little to 'the world', other than it's hilarious how fast it overheats.

They are going to build a ridiculous mid engined car instead of fixing what they have today, which doesn't work well.

Gold chains and New Balances don't make you fast!

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

it likely has to do with the Corvette's reliability

Friendly reminder, the first thing in your sig is a link to “DIY: S65 Rod Bearings”

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

Friendly reminder, the first thing in your sig is a link to “DIY: S65 Rod Bearings”

It is... but was it Car and Driver that had their regular C7 Vette eat two engines?

Their E46 and E92 survived with their stock rod bearings.

Anyway, this could have been a better discussion than the mud slinging it's turning into

[Rmtt]

Originally Posted by WestRace

I guess it's fair to wait until the final product. Let's hope it won't get delay over and over again.

I am not sure GM can make a mid engine for around 60K since the current car already costs around 60K or more. Probably just a marketing hype.

Exactly.....the base model will be a variant of the current C7 with a few upgrades, but still "front engine". However power is supposed to get bumped to around 500.

My LS3 with stock 435 HP and just Long-Tubes, Ported Fast, and a very small cam and tune made around 461/468 rwhp/rwtq. We are talking about less than $2,600 in parts if you do the wrenching/tuning like I did, and all the while running a very conservative A/F ratio.

I can drive the car in 6th gear around 1100 rpm with no surging or lugging, and it has plenty of power for the street.

The C7's made 465 HP, and they are hitting the numbers I am making with just Long-Tubes and an Intake without having to go into the valve-train.

And my C6Z although I kept it stock (505HP) with just a full exhaust and tuning would easily be hitting close to 500 to the wheels.

As I mentioned before, all cars have issues that can be picked apart. I have never had any issues with any I have owned.

I have only had my 128i for about 8-9 weeks, and I notice that there is some slight "bubbling" going on with the dash pad. Then I read that this seems to be an issue with a lot of these cars. So like I said, they all have their quirks.

I didn't start this tread to be about bashing one car or the other, I just put it out there after seeing the headline.

I enjoy all performance related cars. When shopping for this last DD....Audi was a big contender. But some of the issues such as timing chain tensioners, electronics failures, etc....steered me away from them.

I really do love the 128. I have already swapped out the rear diff, and I have a 3 Stage Intake, Headers, and Milvs waiting to go in along with a custom tune from BPC (As I know nothing about tuning these cars) as soon as I get some time away from work.

Will doing all of this turn it into a beast....no. But it will make it even more fun to drive than it already is...I believe it will. And on those nice days when I want to take something out with a little more "grunt"...I drive the Corvette.

I admit I may be a little bias, but only because it's a platform that I know extensively and I am comfortable with. I'm sure it will be the same way as I learn more about my current 1 Series.