[Dragonman4]

I plan on using my employer's GM discount for a Z06.

[Kev]

Originally Posted by Magna3

So, the blame rests on the people who have the least influence on the way the company is managed? At what point do you hold the people who are paid millions accountable for Managing? I'm sure this is what the hapless leaders of GM would love you to believe.

Originally Posted by Kenny@JleviSW

Actually it's management that is ultimately responsible. Like I said they are too committed in their own/old ways that it's hard for them to embrace new technologies and make innovative products. We've seen this happen to many large corporations before (IBM and Ford come to mind as examples). Ford has actually been trying to restructure itself to keep up the changes (both locally as well as internationally).

This is not to say that the workers aren't to blame. I mean let's face it, if union workers cannot be fired for not performing at 100%, they simply have no incentive to work hard. And it seems that most, if not all, of GM's workers are union workers so it's going to be pretty hard to get rid of them even though the company is losing billions.

Originally Posted by Magna3

Well, if I worked for a bunch of crooks who would just as soon cut your job, benefits, and salary to line their own pockets I'd want representation also.

Originally Posted by quagmire

So earning $70K a year is justified for an assembly line worker out of High School? While I am not excusing GM's POS management,but the UAW is also at fault.

Actually, both sides are valid.

The executives are greedily lining their pockets with loads of cash while the company is performance is piss-poor. They have no incentive to rack up sales / innovation / design, or whatever that would help the company. They just want to line their pockets with as much cash as possible and if the company crumbles, they'll just jump ship. There's no loyalty what-so-ever in the company's management. So, it doesn't matter whether they make a good or bad decision. Also, the executives of the automobile industry after WWII literally gave birth to and raised the beast of UAW. With the salary caps in place in that era, they have bundle a whole lot of fringe benefits (healthcare, pensions) into the benefits package. When the economy is good, they turned a blind eye to the unreasonable raise request of the union. Now they are losing money because of all this...... I wonder who's to blame?

The workers nowadays are just hiding behind their union. They have no incentives to work hard. They just show up at work, do the bare minimum and go home, w/o any fear of getting fired for not performing well. What comes to mind is the communist in mainland China back in the 70s. There's a saying that goes like this, "Work, you get paid $36; Slack, you still get paid $36". Also, the wages of these workers are outrageous. Come on, they make more money than a resident; most of the time even more than the chief resident! We used to joke in college that the job offer that I got for a university research assistant or working for a biotech firm are less well paid than a person sweeping the floor in a Ford plant. Do you really think that is fair?

Originally Posted by Dragonman4

I plan on using my employer's GM discount for a Z06.

Good move, man, good move. With your retail pharmacy gig, you should be all set with that

[Dragonman4]

Originally Posted by Los Angeles

GM, Ford, Dodge.

Shitty cars. Shitty business. They're their own worst enemy.

I dunno, Ford is pretty big in the UK/Europe market with their focus. Evidently they make some quality cars across the pond that we don't get here.

Originally Posted by Kev

Good move, man, good move. With your retail pharmacy gig, you should be all set with that

Haha, yea well it's really about the only worthwhile GM car to buy. Although the new G8 doesn't look bad at all. It's a big muscle car wrapped in a sedan package. I've seen one driving on the road and that engine sounds mean.

[Kev]

Originally Posted by Dragonman4

I dunno, Ford is pretty big in the UK/Europe market with their focus. Evidently they make some quality cars across the pond that we don't get here.

Haha, yea well it's really about the only worthwhile GM car to buy. Although the new G8 doesn't look bad at all. It's a big muscle car wrapped in a sedan package. I've seen one driving on the road and that engine sounds mean.

Seriously, Ford makes much better cars on the other side of the pond. I'm not sure if Sierra and Scorpion ring a bell, but they were pretty nice cars back in the days, especially the Cosworth tuned version.

GM still makes some pretty good trucks, and the new CTS-V doesn't look half as bad either. I think they have better line up now, but only time will tell if they could continue with this positive change.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Kev

Seriously, Ford makes much better cars on the other side of the pond. I'm not sure if Sierra and Scorpion ring a bell, but they were pretty nice cars back in the days, especially the Cosworth tuned version.

GM still makes some pretty good trucks, and the new CTS-V doesn't look half as bad either. I think they have better line up now, but only time will tell if they could continue with this positive change.

Out of the Big 3, GM is in much better shape product wise. You got the new Malibu, Saturn has the freshest lineup in the industry and those products are pretty good( though the Insignia based Aura was put on hold), Pontiac has the G8, Buick has the Enclave, and Saab has the new 9-3, and Cadillac is getting its act together. GM is finally being smart and selling Hummer( need the money and don't need the image even though they could turn it into a Jeep competitor) and it looks like GMC is dead( next gen Acadia has been killed off and the Lambda SUT is also killed).

[Kev]

Originally Posted by quagmire

Out of the Big 3, GM is in much better shape product wise. You got the new Malibu, Saturn has the freshest lineup in the industry and those products are pretty good( though the Insignia based Aura was put on hold), Pontiac has the G8, Buick has the Enclave, and Saab has the new 9-3, and Cadillac is getting its act together. GM is finally being smart and selling Hummer( need the money and don't need the image even though they could turn it into a Jeep competitor) and it looks like GMC is dead( next gen Acadia has been killed off and the Lambda SUT is also killed).

Yeah, I don't get this having multiple different brands mentality of GM. A lot of these brands have zero values. The only reason why they can't get rid of these brands are the dealerships that are bitching and moaning.....It's a sad situation. They would have done a lot better if they consolidated into 2 or 3 brands:

1. Chevy for the entry level cars / trucks
2. Cadillac for the luxury level cars / trucks
3. a niche brand, e.g. Saturn, or a specialized truck division

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Kev

Yeah, I don't get this having multiple different brands mentality of GM. A lot of these brands have zero values. The only reason why they can't get rid of these brands are the dealerships that are bitching and moaning.....It's a sad situation. They would have done a lot better if they consolidated into 2 or 3 brands:

1. Chevy for the entry level cars / trucks
2. Cadillac for the luxury level cars / trucks
3. a niche brand, e.g. Saturn, or a specialized truck division

If GM was smart GM could turn its brands into something meaningful. But, they're not.

Chevy- mainstream cars and trucks
GMC- Medium Duty trucks
Pontiac- all RWD vehicles
Saab- European luxury/driving flare
Saturn- Entry European luxury( like VW)
Cadillac- all out luxury( to go against Infiniti, BMW, and Merc)
Buick- American luxury( go against Lexus, plus Buick is big in China)
Hummer- Off road prowless( go against Jeep and Land Rover)

But, GM is too stupid, low on cash, and new CAFE standards prevent them from putting those plans into motion,

[Neil]

That to me is still too many brands.

That is why brands such as toyota / lexus do so well. You drive a Corolla or Camry and when you have more money you can jump right up to a IS, ES, etc.

With American companies the other choices are more vague. They have too many cars that compete with each other, too much overlap, & no brand identity.

Cadillac to me has the most identity, it has always been American Luxury and that's it, no cheapo cars & no big trucks. Saturn to me used to have an identity, economical cars for everyday people but then they started mixing in the Sky which while an awesome car to me it dilutes their brand somewhat.

Saab to me is a very niche market. They remind me of Jaguar. It's funny thought because I only tend to see them in the Northeast, in other parts of the country I never see them. Even here they don't have huge sales numbers and a few dealerships have opened and closed within a year close to me.

[chuck92103]

GM, Ford, And Chrysler are all stupid.

75% of Sales are trucks, minivans, and SUVs. When you take them out of the mix, 25% of sales are cars. The issue is, they need to find customers to buy 300% more cars. Won't happen. Consequently each company will shrink by 50-60% minimum.

The rested on their laurels and will pay the price.

The board of directors for each of these companies is to blame. They opted for short term gains over the last two decades instead of long term survivability.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Neil

That to me is still too many brands.

That is why brands such as toyota / lexus do so well. You drive a Corolla or Camry and when you have more money you can jump right up to a IS, ES, etc.

With American companies the other choices are more vague. They have too many cars that compete with each other, too much overlap, & no brand identity.

Cadillac to me has the most identity, it has always been American Luxury and that's it, no cheapo cars & no big trucks. Saturn to me used to have an identity, economical cars for everyday people but then they started mixing in the Sky which while an awesome car to me it dilutes their brand somewhat.

Saab to me is a very niche market. They remind me of Jaguar. It's funny thought because I only tend to see them in the Northeast, in other parts of the country I never see them. Even here they don't have huge sales numbers and a few dealerships have opened and closed within a year close to me.

Like I said though, if GM had the money and the smarts they could give each brand an identity. But, they don't anymore and do need to shrink. Killing/selling Hummer and GMC is a start. Saturn is being positioned to go against VW. Saab is needed for market penetration where GM's other brands can't. Buick is big in China( though I am open to killing Buick for NA), Chevy is safe no matter what. Pontiac needs to focus on BMW performance for cheap( no G3, G5, Torrent, etc). Cadillac again is safe.