[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

Everything around the motor will break. Too many electronics & shit. SO what good is a good motor when everything around it sucks?

In over 40 years and 18 BMWs, that has not been my experience at all and I keep them for quite awhile - had one over 20 years, one for 12, another for 9, etc. and my current Z3 I have had for almost 18 years. Have not had the experiences with BMWs that you describe. Sorry you have had such bad ones.

[supra93]

An article written back in March by Peter Lyon back via Forbes says there will be an NA I6 for $45k as well:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterly...help-from-bmw/

Later, Supra Mk V forum insider A70TTR has this to say about it:

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/sup...e-2#post-15171

Originally Posted by A70TTR

Tada reposted a Forbes article on his FB that says there is an NA and TT variant of the car, just FYI. I think that was already posted on here several times, but perhaps a little more interesting that he shared it.

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/sup...e-5#post-15360

Originally Posted by Captain_Kirk

Wait? Is there really going to be a NA model?

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/sup...e-5#post-15404

Originally Posted by A70TTR

there were discussions on it, but I thought it died along with the talk of the 4cyl/hybrid/etc.

now I'm not so sure, but it would surprise me a bit.

Do I personally believe the report of a NA I6? No, not really, but stranger things have happened.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Keep in mind, there are currently no known plans for an S55 or S58 powered Supra. It will use the B58 at launch, and perhaps indefinitely.

Here are A70TTR's thoughts on that from back in February in response to another Supra Mk V forum member:

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/new...ge-6#post-9644

Originally Posted by SS09ER

So i read a lot about B58 and after i little search i found out that bmw is developing the S58 (which is actually the high perfomance variant of the B58) for the next M models.The new supra is going to be a sports car so why not put the S58?It is going to have 475hp as well.At least for the GRMN Supra,just my thought.

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/new...ge-6#post-9646

Originally Posted by A70TTR

The GRMN car very well might have that, and maybe that's one of the reason the purported price tag is estimated to be $100k+

Engineers originally tested the chassis using the S55, so it wouldn't be that far of a jump IMO.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

An article written back in March by Peter Lyon back via Forbes says there will be an NA I6 for $45k as well:

That's incorrect. BMW hasn't built a naturally aspirated inline six in years. And the cost sensitive nature of this project will not allow a unique engine for the Supra.

Furthermore, our insider ynguldyn has already posted Supra engine details, which include a model with a turbocharged inline four (two actually, but only one will come to the US) and a model with a turbocharged inline six.

I suspect that the author of that article either got information from a bad translation or perhaps he's just making a poor assumption.

Here are A70TTR's thoughts on that from back in February in response to another Supra Mk V forum member:

This seems even more unlikely than an NA I6.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

That's incorrect. BMW hasn't built an inline six in years.

Didn't you mean a NA inline 6?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

Didn't you mean a NA inline 6?

Yes, absolutely. I fixed it. Thanks for pointing out the error.

(And thank you Red Bread for pointing it out the second time )

[Red Bread]

Yeah, zero chance they offer a non turbo motor.

[supra93]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

That's incorrect. BMW hasn't built a turbocharged inline six in years. And the cost sensitive nature of this project will not allow a unique engine for the Supra.

Furthermore, our insider ynguldyn has already posted Supra engine details, which include a model with a turbocharged inline four (two actually, but only one will come to the US) and a model with a turbocharged inline six.

I suspect that the author of that article either got information from a bad translation or perhaps he's just making a poor assumption.

With respect to ynguldyn, the four cylinder report contradicts Tada-san statement on a Supra needing to have a straight six, also A70TTR (insider who has worked on the project) did says some of the prototypes were fitted with the B48, but that was just for testing purpose and has been dropped for production.

I'm not sure, but Peter Lyon has been pretty creditable in the past.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

With respect to ynguldyn, the four cylinder report contradicts Tada-san statement on a Supra needing to have a straight six

How so? It will still have an inline six, it will simply be available with an inline four as well.

also A70TTR (insider who has worked on the project) did says some of the prototypes were fitted with the B48, but that was just for testing purpose and has been dropped for production.

And have any test cars been captured on video with this naturally aspirated I6 exhaust sound?

I'm not sure, but Peter Lyon has been pretty creditable in the past.

Even so, the NA I6 does not make much sense. A new engine, especially in the cheaper model, doesn't stand to reason when the whole point of the collaboration was to share costs.

[supra93]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

How so? It will still have an inline six, it will simply be available with an inline four as well.

And he has ever mentioned anything about a 4 cylinder?

And have any test cars been captured on video with this naturally aspirated I6 exhaust sound?

I'm not sure, but has every test car been captured on video? You know Toyota has a private test track in Japan.

A70TTR has also said some of the early test car was fitted with the S55, but does that mean it will make production? (No)

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

And he has ever mentioned anything about a 4 cylinder?

I have no idea. But I'll bet there are many things about the car that he has not mentioned. Obviously an entry level model with a turbocharged I4 is less interesting than the higher end model with a turbocharged I6. Building hype is an art, and usually you focus on the most exciting parts.

Originally Posted by supra93

A70TTR has also said some of the early test car was fitted with the S55, but does that mean it will make production? (No)

Exactly. As I said above, that seems even less likely than the NA I6.

[supra93]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I have no idea. But I'll bet there are many things about the car that he has not mentioned. Obviously an entry level model with a turbocharged I4 is less interesting than the higher end model with a turbocharged I6. Building hype is an art, and usually you focus on the most exciting parts.

Yes that is true, but I than go back to A70TTR statement that the 4 cylinder has been dropped. Personally, he has been very creditable on our side. Weeks before Tokyo 2017 he told members that the Supra will not debut and for those that brought plane tickets to try to get a refund. Earlier this year he said it will show up in Geneva, but only as a concept. Think FT-86 II.

I'm not an engineer or anything like that, but some are arguing that it shouldn't be that hard to just to take off the turbos, redesign the intake manifold, and re-tune the ECU.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

Yes that is true, but I than go back to A70TTR statement that the 4 cylinder has been dropped. Personally, he has been very creditable on our side. Weeks before Tokyo 2017 he told members that the Supra will not debut and for those that brought plane tickets to try to get a refund. Earlier this year he said it will show up in Geneva, but only as a concept. Think FT-86 II.

That's great that he's been a valuable resource, but even if the four cylinder has been dropped, that does not mean a naturally aspirated I6 will replace it.

I'm not an engineer or anything like that, but some are arguing that it shouldn't be that hard to just to take off the turbos, redesign the intake manifold, and re-tune the ECU.

Anything is possible with enough money. Such an engine would not be cheap to engineer, test, and certify. As I said earlier, it does not fit with what we know about the development of this product.

[nomade30]

It’s Toyota’s way of getting all those 2JZ fan boys to shut up and realize BMW engines are just as stout. In my experience the only common problem with BMW’s is the cooling system after about 150k.

[insanecoder]

It just shows how much of an engine the B58 is that its getting stuffed into a Supra
I bought the 340 for its heart.. the B58 .. the other engines were just good
the B58 doesnt just output HP.. it outputs smiles
the power the sound.. cant blame them for stuffin it in a Supra

[supra93]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

That's great that he's been a valuable resource, but even if the four cylinder has been dropped, that does not mean a naturally aspirated I6 will replace it.

Anything is possible with enough money. Such an engine would not be cheap to engineer, test, and certify. As I said earlier, it does not fit with what we know about the development of this product.

A70TTR also told us that Tada-san did say the starting price for the Supra would be around $55k. In my opinion, that much for a 4 cylinder Toyota would make it DOA. Of course not, I still believe the base model will be the B58 and the higher tier 'GRMN' will be a either a higher tuned B58 or even some kind of hybrid.

Just playing playing devil's advocate for a moment, but with the 86 it did not just result in a straight up Subaru drivetrain.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by insanecoder

It just shows how much of an engine the B58 is that its getting stuffed into a Supra
I bought the 340 for its heart.. the B58 .. the other engines were just good
the B58 doesnt just output HP.. it outputs smiles
the power the sound.. cant blame them for stuffin it in a Supra

Nah, it's just the cost effective route for them. They're in business to make money.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

In my opinion, that much for a 4 cylinder Toyota would make it DOA.

Yes, and that price for an N/A 6 cylinder would also be an immediate recipe for failure. So that price (if it is really the base price for the US, which I am very skeptical of) does nothing to support the base engine argument either way.

Just playing playing devil's advocate for a moment, but with the 86 it did not just result in a straight up Subaru drivetrain.

That engine was developed for both the Subaru and the Toyota. We already know which engines are going to be used in the Z4 - the B48 and B58. So, if we use the 86 as an example, then the obvious conclusion is that the Z4 and Supra will both use the B48 and B58.

[supra93]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yes, and that price for an N/A 6 cylinder would also be an immediate recipe for failure. So that price (if it is really the base price, which I am also skeptical of) does nothing to support the base engine argument either way.

That engine was developed for both the Subaru and the Toyota. We already know which engines are going to be used in the Z4 - the B48 and B58. So, if we use the 86 as an example, then the obvious conclusion is that the Z4 and Supra will both use the B48 and B58.

The people from Calty Design Research did also say to expect a price range of $50k-$60k when the FT-1 was first unveiled. For that price range and a Toyota badge; my bet would be the B58 for a base model.

Right, but does that not mean Toyota might not play around with it? Either way I am also skeptical of this whole NA I6. I just thought it might be interesting to hear other people's input.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by insanecoder

It just shows how much of an engine the B58 is that its getting stuffed into a Supra
I bought the 340 for its heart.. the B58 .. the other engines were just good
the B58 doesnt just output HP.. it outputs smiles
the power the sound.. cant blame them for stuffin it in a Supra

The problem is that the B58 has proven nearly impossible for aftermarket tuners to crack the code on, yet the Supra is purportedly being developed with the aftermarket squarely in mind on Toyota's side.

This is a huge problem. How can you sell a car that's supposedly aftermarket friendly with an engine that can't be chipped/piggybacked either easily or (relatively) effectively?

My thought is that Toyota may use its own proprietary software on the powerplant, which it will make far more tune-friendly than BMW's version -- in fact, I'm willing to bet that this, along with potential hybridization, could be the primary reason for the launch delay ...

... and if the B58 (or even the B48) is used, that will likely be a guiding force behind the Supra's marketing when the car is eventually released, without any blatant mention of its BMW brother(s).

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

The people from Calty Design Research did also say to expect a price range of $50k-$60k when the FT-1 was first unveiled. For that price range and a Toyota badge; my bet would be the B58 for a base model.

Sure, one of the two could be correct. Either the B58 is in the base model at that price, or its not and the base price is lower than $55k.

I strongly suspect there will be a base model with a B48 and a price that starts with a four, or perhaps even a three, as in $39,900 or so.

Right, but does that not mean Toyota might not play around with it?

Is it impossible? No. But there is no evidence to support it. There is evidence from ynguldyn - a reliable source of pre-release product specs - against it. There is also the logical reasoning that cost-concsiouness makes it unlikely.

Either way I am also skeptical of this whole NA I6. I just thought it might be interesting to hear other people's input.

Absolutely.

[IllSic_Design]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

The problem is that the B58 has proven nearly impossible for aftermarket tuners to crack the code on

A Russian tuner(K8 Strasse) has supposedly cracked the G series and F90 ECUs(and subsequently the F series B58 ecu). If so then it won't be long before most tuners know the crack

https://www.bimmer**********/content...sse-B58-tuning

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by IllSic_Design

A Russian tuner(K8 Strasse) has supposedly cracked the G series and F90 ECUs(and subsequently the F series B58 ecu). If so then it won't be long before most tuners know the crack

https://www.bimmer**********/content...sse-B58-tuning

That's not the central point here, though there's tangential value:

The point is to make the B48/58 (theoretically) in the Supra relatively easy for the aftermarket to crack to encourage modification and help separate it from the BMW version (double meaning alert: both engine and model).

Think about it. Proprietary Toyota software for the Supra's Bxx engines would keep tunes developed in the aftermarket from being used on BMWs with the Bxx engine -- which is plainly what BMW wants.

That a shady Russian (really? You'd risk a flash by a Russian company?) outfit is the only place in nearly three years to have (purportedly) cracked the Bxx speaks volumes about how badly BMW does not want its engines heavily modified. Toyota, however, likely wants to encourage it in the Supra.

See the problem?