[KingOfJericho]

Don't be a kitten. I used to scoff at Vettes until I saw one on track making Porsches look like parked cars.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

C5 Z06.

Bingo.

[The Wind Breezes]

Just get a Lotus.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

Just get a Lotus.

Having owned one, it's not something I would recommend. It's a very fun car to drive but the non-reclining seats, terrible HVAC, terrible stereo, and overall fragility of the car make it hideously impractical. I've see cars totaled after running over a piece of tire on the highway (any puncture of the aluminum tub is a total loss).

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Some people value their lives.

Okay, so this is just a completely stupid statement and comes from ignorance. It takes talent and skill to be a life long motorcyclist, as a few of us on this Forum are. Educate yourself. Better yet, find a true motorcyclist and have him or her take you for a ride. Maybe you'll get a better understanding.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Oh come on.

The statement above is akin to putting money in a savings account instead of the stock market and using 'some people value their money' as justification for the decision.

'Some people' value what a motorcycle can provide that a car never, ever will be able to. Is that worth the inherently higher risk? To 'some people', it is. The OP did, after all, say he wanted a 'hardcore' alternative -- and a bike is about as hardcore as it gets.

I'm of the opinion that those who discount motorcycles like this (and worse) are part of what makes motorcycling more dangerous in the U.S. than, say, Europe. We have the same right as four-wheelers -- known to motorcyclists as 'cages' -- to the roads and the risks inherent with operating any legal vehicle on one. I'm not saying that you have this attitude, sir, but your statement suggests it: People who feel motorcycles are not 'equal' to cages regarding rights to roads are the single biggest risk to those who ride.

(To the OP: Count me in with a vote for an S2K.)

Well said.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

Hardcore? You need a motorcycle. Even a little 250 is more hardcore than any car you would be able to buy.

Eh, I'm going to have to disagree on a 250. Just sayin'

[cvstar9M3]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Just a weekend car, no track usage? Z4 M Roadster, more fun than the Porsche and the best way to hear an S54.

Z4M is more fun than a Boxster s? mmm. Granted I never driven the z4M, I owned a 03boxster S. wow raw and never had so much fun on 4 wheels like that before... still misss it. I'd presume the cayman, specially early ears are just as fun and raw...

[cvstar9M3]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Eh, I'm going to have to disagree on a 250. Just sayin'

+1 lol @250. lol you need at minimum a 600cc to compare. lol

[Shredicus]

He doesn't want a motorcycle. Why are so many people soapboxing motorcycles?

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by cvstar9M3

Z4M is more fun than a Boxster s? mmm. Granted I never driven the z4M, I owned a 03boxster S. wow raw and never had so much fun on 4 wheels like that before... still misss it. I'd presume the cayman, specially early ears are just as fun and raw...

Fun in less refined, more hooligan oriented, but ultimately slower and cruder way. Caymans and Boxsters are almost clinically refined, where the Z4M was much more raw and less polished. Both are fun, but for non track use, I prefer a little higher hooligan factor.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Shredicus

He doesn't want a motorcycle. Why are so many people soapboxing motorcycles?

Because some dork made a stupid comment about motorcyclist's not caring about their lives, when in actuality they care more than some Cager texting his girlfriend while under the influence.

[KingOfJericho]

lol "cager" - is this Mad Max???

[Captain Blood]

Looks like you could get into a 2011 135 for under $16,000. N55

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

lol "cager" - is this Mad Max???

Nope. We bikers just have cooler nomenclature than cagers -- which, by the way, does have multiple meanings to us.

OP: Glad you have ridden before and know that it's not for you.

[FriskyDingo]

996 911 or S2K

[rlmesq]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Eh, I'm going to have to disagree on a 250. Just sayin'

Originally Posted by cvstar9M3

+1 lol @250. lol you need at minimum a 600cc to compare. lol

Small displacement bikes are a lot more forgiving that 600cc or liter bikes, which makes it easier to learn to ride them really well. It takes a huge amount of throttle control to be fast on a 200 hp liter bike, or even a 100+hp 600; as Freddie Spencer always said, "Fast riders have slow hands."

People who buy a bike with more power than they can handle will never really appreciate it. They may be able to whack the throttle and get a thrill from rapid acceleration, but they grab way too much brake, way too early at the end of a straight, don't carry much corner speed or get much lean angle, and are late to pick up the bike and open the throttle at the exit.

Most of the current small sportbikes (Yamaha YZF-R3, Honda CBR300R, Kawasaki Ninja 300, KTM RC390) have grown beyond the former 250 class. They also have fuel injection, and a chassis, forks, rear shocks and brakes that make them real sportbikes (unlike the pre-2008 Ninja 250, which hadn't changed much in 20+ years, but was still a lot of fun).

For under eight grand, you can get one of these little bikes, along with a quality helmet, leathers (one piece, of course), boots and leathers. That leaves a lot for some quality trackdays and riding schools.

A friend of mine used to race AFM 250 production on a pink Ninja 250 with glittery Barbie decals on the fairings. At trackdays, I saw her pass many, many guys who were on an R1 or GSXR-1000 but didn't know how to ride as well as she did.

[The Wind Breezes]

Originally Posted by cvstar9M3

+1 lol @250. lol you need at minimum a 600cc to compare. lol

Opening the throttle in a straight line requires little talent just balls. I picked the "small" 250 to highlight the rider talent requirement integral to overall riding because it's 90% of what makes motorcycles so hardcore--motorcycles are very hard to ride and require hundreds of hours of experience, WITH COACHING, to have even a competent handle on controlling one in high performance situations. The other 10% is the risk of death but let's be honest it doesn't mean much because in practice people ignore it automatically, and are extremely illogical about it on the first place, so I will say it barely matters.

You still think a 250 is slow, just come out to the MX track and get on a "lowly" 250. You'll rethink that theory when kids on 80cc bikes are flying over you. As far as street use goes, any 600 made in the last 20 years is too fast to ride anywhere close to the limit on the street for more like 2 seconds. In any case the majority of rr bikes are sold cuz of image, there are other types of bike that the owners would probably like a lot more if they didn't care about looking fast. Liter bikes? Forget about it. Even my old ninja 250, with a top speed over 100, would average higher speeds than I probably do now over the same roads 99% of the time in my car. So yeah, liter bikes? God help you, you either bought the wrong bike based on a misunderstanding of compromises or you are actually planning to go 180 on the highway and probably run from the cops. Your personal risk goes up exponentially doing either of those things.

So in short nobody needs fast bikes IF they know how to ride. If not an overpowered bike can be a shortcut by scaring you after you get into territory you really shouldn't be in but is it worth it? No way.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by rlmesq

Small displacement bikes are a lot more forgiving that 600cc or liter bikes, which makes it easier to learn to ride them really well. It takes a huge amount of throttle control to be fast on a 200 hp liter bike, or even a 100+hp 600; as Freddie Spencer always said, "Fast riders have slow hands."

People who buy a bike with more power than they can handle will never really appreciate it. They may be able to whack the throttle and get a thrill from rapid acceleration, but they grab way too much brake, way too early at the end of a straight, don't carry much corner speed or get much lean angle, and are late to pick up the bike and open the throttle at the exit.

Most of the current small sportbikes (Yamaha YZF-R3, Honda CBR300R, Kawasaki Ninja 300, KTM RC390) have grown beyond the former 250 class. They also have fuel injection, and a chassis, forks, rear shocks and brakes that make them real sportbikes (unlike the pre-2008 Ninja 250, which hadn't changed much in 20+ years, but was still a lot of fun).

For under eight grand, you can get one of these little bikes, along with a quality helmet, leathers (one piece, of course), boots and leathers. That leaves a lot for some quality trackdays and riding schools.

A friend of mine used to race AFM 250 production on a pink Ninja 250 with glittery Barbie decals on the fairings. At trackdays, I saw her pass many, many guys who were on an R1 or GSXR-1000 but didn't know how to ride as well as she did.

So are we now talking 300cc Sport bikes, or 250cc Honda Rebels?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

Opening the throttle in a straight line requires little talent just balls. I picked the "small" 250 to highlight the rider talent requirement integral to overall riding because it's 90% of what makes motorcycles so hardcore--motorcycles are very hard to ride and require hundreds of hours of experience, WITH COACHING, to have even a competent handle on controlling one in high performance situations. The other 10% is the risk of death but let's be honest it doesn't mean much because in practice people ignore it automatically, and are extremely illogical about it on the first place, so I will say it barely matters.

You still think a 250 is slow, just come out to the MX track and get on a "lowly" 250. You'll rethink that theory when kids on 80cc bikes are flying over you. As far as street use goes, any 600 made in the last 20 years is too fast to ride anywhere close to the limit on the street for more like 2 seconds. In any case the majority of rr bikes are sold cuz of image, there are other types of bike that the owners would probably like a lot more if they didn't care about looking fast. Liter bikes? Forget about it. Even my old ninja 250, with a top speed over 100, would average higher speeds than I probably do now over the same roads 99% of the time in my car. So yeah, liter bikes? God help you, you either bought the wrong bike based on a misunderstanding of compromises or you are actually planning to go 180 on the highway and probably run from the cops. Your personal risk goes up exponentially doing either of those things.

So in short nobody needs fast bikes IF they know how to ride. If not an overpowered bike can be a shortcut by scaring you after you get into territory you really shouldn't be in but is it worth it? No way.

Yeah, and I used to dive under 600cc sport bikes going up the Thornton River Gap on my Honda Valkyrie Interstate and just laugh at them. But who cares. Wish there was a big chest emoji...

[Orion335]

I got rid of my liter bike, and I'm not trying to get back on. It was one hell of a rush, but I'm not taking that kind of risk anymore. Too much bike for 99% of the time I rode it, and LA drivers aren't careful enough for me to feel comfortable riding.

I always liked the S2000, but I'm a pretty big guy. I'm okay with buying a rough/impractical car, but I don't fit too well in the S2k. Same goes for an Elise. I'm looking at the Z4's and Corvettes y'all mentioned, found some good deals on the C5 Z06 and the normal C6. The more desirable Porsche 996's don't want to depreciate to a price I can appreciate.

[04mazdaspeed]

My vote would be a na miata. You could find them with relatively low mileage for 5k. Drop another 4 grand into the suspension and wheels and tires. You would then have a car that would rip a lot of cars on the track. Plus cheap to maintain and well known for reliability. Ive owned a couple now including the rare mazdaspeed miata and by far is the most fun car I have ever owned. I would choose to drive that car more than my 16 z06. Something about how light and nimble they are and when the top is down its a blast.