[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by lan4

True that. The M6 is just not competitive in GTLM. Bad choice by BMW to race an M6. You can see in the corners the body roll, looks like a big sedan rolling through twisty corners with the roll bars disconnected. When it gets to the point where a truly great and enthusiastic driver like Bill Auberlin has to mention in the TV interview that "hopefully the IMSA officials will help us out with BOP adjustments" (not a direct quote), it's time for BMW to look in the mirror for the problem.

What are they gonna race instead, an M4? The 911 and Corvette are NA, the Ford GT and Ferrari are turbo'd and all have the Balance of performance. Do you think that the m4's 3 liter S55 could handle being tuned up to about 500 hp and still be reliable? Whereas the TTV8 in the M6 was the better option.

BMw is kinda outgunned in the GTLM and to an extent in the GTD category. the M6 is a car with a big frontal area going up against sports cars, and exotics. Even the Corvette is having a time of it with it's front engine design.

[clbmw]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

What are they gonna race instead, an M4? The 911 and Corvette are NA, the Ford GT and Ferrari are turbo'd and all have the Balance of performance. Do you think that the m4's 3 liter S55 could handle being tuned up to about 500 hp and still be reliable? Whereas the TTV8 in the M6 was the better option.

BMw is kinda outgunned in the GTLM and to an extent in the GTD category. the M6 is a car with a big frontal area going up against sports cars, and exotics. Even the Corvette is having a time of it with it's front engine design.

Exactly...

But the BMW board don't see a need for anything other than heavy GTs, Coupes and SUVs. They don't need a supercar apparently, and those who bang the drum on this forum are wrong.

I didn't watch the whole thing but the Merc GT and Audi R8 were flying. Not a great advert for the regular M6 in the real world either.

[MiamiE93Vert]

Originally Posted by clbmw

Exactly...

But the BMW board don't see a need for anything other than heavy GTs, Coupes and SUVs. They don't need a supercar apparently, and those who bang the drum on this forum are wrong.

I didn't watch the whole thing but the Merc GT and Audi R8 were flying. Not a great advert for the regular M6 in the real world either.

This. It's like they don't care. Audi woke up in this series a few years ago and now Merc is involved. When BMW cared about returning to DTM they came back and won everything the first year. When ford focused decades ago on beating Ferrari you got the GT and they are refocused on the GT now. I want to see quotes from the company that they are disappointed in the company's efforts to support RLL and will be increasing their efforts.

[bmwmnation]

Originally Posted by ThugzZ BunnY

#bringbackthez4

Agree

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

What are they gonna race instead, an M4? The 911 and Corvette are NA, the Ford GT and Ferrari are turbo'd and all have the Balance of performance. Do you think that the m4's 3 liter S55 could handle being tuned up to about 500 hp and still be reliable? Whereas the TTV8 in the M6 was the better option.

BMw is kinda outgunned in the GTLM and to an extent in the GTD category. the M6 is a car with a big frontal area going up against sports cars, and exotics. Even the Corvette is having a time of it with it's front engine design.

I agree with you, except the part where Corvette is struggling with front-engine. A C7.R just won Sebring... again. The C7.R finished 1st & 2nd at last year's Rolex 24 as well. They're doing just fine with front-engine.

Homologation racing is about consistency, and learning to work within the framework of the series. IMO, this is RLL's biggest shortcoming. There's a ton of stuff that goes on behind the scenes, and some teams do a better job there than others. Chip Ganassi racing, for example is extremely well known for their back-of-the house team. The results show it.

BTW, none of this is intended to imply anything dishonest about any of the teams. Just that there's more to racing than the car, the drivers, and the engineers.

[lan4]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

What are they gonna race instead, an M4? The 911 and Corvette are NA, the Ford GT and Ferrari are turbo'd and all have the Balance of performance. Do you think that the m4's 3 liter S55 could handle being tuned up to about 500 hp and still be reliable? Whereas the TTV8 in the M6 was the better option.

BMw is kinda outgunned in the GTLM and to an extent in the GTD category. the M6 is a car with a big frontal area going up against sports cars, and exotics. Even the Corvette is having a time of it with it's front engine design.

The M6 hasn't been that reliable anyway, 1 of the 2 goes out every race for some mechanical reason or another. Maybe not the TTV8 as root cause, but what's the difference if your not on the pace of the competition.

Yes, I think the M4 would be a better choice. Porsche (NA) and Ford (TTV6) are running 6's, why not? If the S55 is that close to blowing up with 500HP, then that doesn't say much for the longevity of my F80, or all the S55's out there with tunes. Most of racing is for marketing anyway....who the heck races M6's other than BMW corporate? The M3/4 is the car BMW should be racing, no question IMHO.

Also as a few posts have said, I don't think Rahal's team is good at the BOP lobbying. With Ganassi and Corvette in GTLM, BMW is not in a good position with the monstrous M6, and lets face it, BOP charity from IMSA is what it takes for this M6 to compete with a Ford GT, Corvette, Ferrari, etc.

[lan4]

Originally Posted by clbmw

Exactly...

But the BMW board don't see a need for anything other than heavy GTs, Coupes and SUVs. They don't need a supercar apparently, and those who bang the drum on this forum are wrong.

I didn't watch the whole thing but the Merc GT and Audi R8 were flying. Not a great advert for the regular M6 in the real world either.

Agree. and to make matters worse Mercedes and Audi have been eating up BMW market share in the US. US sales just dropped for the first time in many years. Strange decision to race a car clearly designed as a large heavy autobahn cruiser (M6). The E90/92 M3 GTLM from a few years back was a beast, won races, sounded great, looked great, truly a high water mark for BMW....the Z4 GTLM was odd at first, but fantastic looking and sounding in person, and won races. The M6 GTLM, none of the above.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

I agree with you, except the part where Corvette is struggling with front-engine. A C7.R just won Sebring... again. The C7.R finished 1st & 2nd at last year's Rolex 24 as well. They're doing just fine with front-engine.

Homologation racing is about consistency, and learning to work within the framework of the series. IMO, this is RLL's biggest shortcoming. There's a ton of stuff that goes on behind the scenes, and some teams do a better job there than others. Chip Ganassi racing, for example is extremely well known for their back-of-the house team. The results show it.

BTW, none of this is intended to imply anything dishonest about any of the teams. Just that there's more to racing than the car, the drivers, and the engineers.

The Corvette win because the leading Porsche 911 effed up in the pits, ran over a hose. The Porsche 911RSR was showing some considerable speed and stability during qualifying. That was from observation. Even last year there was observation that the Corvette team was having a handful with the mid engined Ford GTs and Ferraris. And now the 911 is mid engined. Coincidence that GM is testing a mid engined car, that possibly is a C8 Corvette or a Cadillac halo car?
What is happening is GTLM is shaping up to be the GT1 of the 90s.

I get what you are saying.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by lan4

The M6 hasn't been that reliable anyway, 1 of the 2 goes out every race for some mechanical reason or another. Maybe not the TTV8 as root cause, but what's the difference if your not on the pace of the competition.

Yes, I think the M4 would be a better choice. Porsche (NA) and Ford (TTV6) are running 6's, why not? If the S55 is that close to blowing up with 500HP, then that doesn't say much for the longevity of my F80, or all the S55's out there with tunes. Most of racing is for marketing anyway....who the heck races M6's other than BMW corporate? The M3/4 is the car BMW should be racing, no question IMHO.

Also as a few posts have said, I don't think Rahal's team is good at the BOP lobbying. With Ganassi and Corvette in GTLM, BMW is not in a good position with the monstrous M6, and lets face it, BOP charity from IMSA is what it takes for this M6 to compete with a Ford GT, Corvette, Ferrari, etc.

Its easier to have restrictors/tune on the TTV8 that already is pushing close to 600 in street tune, than it is to boost up the S55 to 500, when the GTS needs (the gimmick) water injection to get that close. The TTV8 ain't stressed, but the S55 would more than likely probably. If any of these tuners have a 500 hp S55 that can last 12 of Sebring, 24 hours of Daytona, 24 hours of Le Mans, then by all means, then they need to develop and bring that car as a privateer or allow some type of backdoor BMW support.

To me the M6 is like the Bentley Conti GT race car, great concept, but out of place in a sense. And I guess that is why you don't see the Bentley in the Weathertech series, but racing at Bathurst....

Remember, the car before the M6 was the insane Z4LM with the NA V8, that I believe was in the M3 Team RLL racecar. How they got that thru the rules, I would like to know.
But, BMW basically has NO sports car to run, and no engine to run in said sports car. Audi has the R8 with the V10, Mercedes the AMG GT with the TTV8. I think that Lexus has the RC-F in GTD (didn't follow that class) Maybe when the new 6 series, which is supposed to be a Porsche 911 competitor comes out, then they will have a car. But, what will the engine be? But, until then, BMW is stuck with a big GT dealing with sports cars.


Honorable mention---the Cadillac ATS-V coupe in another series.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by lan4

who the heck races M6's other than BMW corporate?

Outside of the North American championship in 2016 BMW M6's got onto the podium about 35 times, in around 10 championships, of which about 12 of those were wins.

That's the point of having a customer racing programme.

It's not the best GT car out there, but it's performance in the IWSC is not representative of the cars potential.

[MiamiE93Vert]

Originally Posted by Matski

Outside of the North American championship in 2016 BMW M6's got onto the podium about 35 times, in around 10 championships, of which about 12 of those were wins.

That's the point of having a customer racing programme.

It's not the best GT car out there, but it's performance in the IWSC is not representative of the cars potential.

So do you attribute the poor showings to bad IMSA regulations, a poor driving team or poor manufacturer support? If the M6 is successful in other circuits it has to be one of these three choices.

[lan4]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

Its easier to have restrictors/tune on the TTV8 that already is pushing close to 600 in street tune, than it is to boost up the S55 to 500, when the GTS needs (the gimmick) water injection to get that close. The TTV8 ain't stressed, but the S55 would more than likely probably. If any of these tuners have a 500 hp S55 that can last 12 of Sebring, 24 hours of Daytona, 24 hours of Le Mans, then by all means, then they need to develop and bring that car as a privateer or allow some type of backdoor BMW support.

To me the M6 is like the Bentley Conti GT race car, great concept, but out of place in a sense. And I guess that is why you don't see the Bentley in the Weathertech series, but racing at Bathurst....

Remember, the car before the M6 was the insane Z4LM with the NA V8, that I believe was in the M3 Team RLL racecar. How they got that thru the rules, I would like to know.
But, BMW basically has NO sports car to run, and no engine to run in said sports car. Audi has the R8 with the V10, Mercedes the AMG GT with the TTV8. I think that Lexus has the RC-F in GTD (didn't follow that class) Maybe when the new 6 series, which is supposed to be a Porsche 911 competitor comes out, then they will have a car. But, what will the engine be? But, until then, BMW is stuck with a big GT dealing with sports cars.


Honorable mention---the Cadillac ATS-V coupe in another series.

Agree, can't argue with your reasoning. M3/4 is probably closest BMW has to a sports car appropriate for racing. Maybe they could talk the rules guys into allowing a TTV8 in an M4.....like they did with the Z4 GTLM.

[lan4]

Originally Posted by Matski

Outside of the North American championship in 2016 BMW M6's got onto the podium about 35 times, in around 10 championships, of which about 12 of those were wins.

That's the point of having a customer racing programme.

It's not the best GT car out there, but it's performance in the IWSC is not representative of the cars potential.

So noted, but the North American market is HUGE for BMW. Wins and podiums in Europe is for the most part meaningless in NA. They need to find a way to win in NA. Either new/different car, new or additional customer team, BOP adjustments or all of the above. For now they are getting embarrassed by the competition.

[Mantii]

Originally Posted by lan4

So noted, but the North American market is HUGE for BMW. Wins and podiums in Europe is for the most part meaningless in NA. They need to find a way to win in NA. Either new/different car, new or additional customer team, BOP adjustments or all of the above. For now they are getting embarrassed by the competition.

Or they may pull out altogether and just concentrate on the classes they have appropriate cars for, such as DTM, m235R, now the M4 GT4, etc and leave GT3 and GTE to others.

[MiamiE93Vert]

Originally Posted by Mantii

Or they may pull out altogether and just concentrate on the classes they have appropriate cars for, such as DTM, m235R, now the M4 GT4, etc and leave GT3 and GTE to others.

This cannot happen. IMSA is positioning GTD as the universal GT3 class for all manufacturers and GTLM is your Le Mans equivalent. Merc, Lamborghini, Lexus and Nissan just entered the mix and the goal is for this circuit to compete with NASCAR for fans and television rights. If you pull out of this you may as well not race in North America and give up.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by MiamiE93Vert

So do you attribute the poor showings to bad IMSA regulations, a poor driving team or poor manufacturer support? If the M6 is successful in other circuits it has to be one of these three choices.

The BoP hasn't helped, the early season tyre change to the WEC compound hurt them, they had some bad luck (double DNF thanks to a single badly driven Ferrari, for example)... but alongside that, the car has had a number of technical issues.. and yes, fundamentally it hasn't had the pace. I don't think any single one of these things explains the results (or lack of), but in combination, in such a small field, they add up and it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Originally Posted by lan4

So noted, but the North American market is HUGE for BMW. Wins and podiums in Europe is for the most part meaningless in NA. They need to find a way to win in NA. Either new/different car, new or additional customer team, BOP adjustments or all of the above. For now they are getting embarrassed by the competition.

Well, clearly they need to win, that's the point of it. The fact is they don't have a car that can go toe to toe with the competition. The Ford GT was purpose built to go racing, the M6 was built off the 5-er architecture, and the 5-er is built to sell in 520d junior executive guise.

The perceived size of the North American market (i.e. smaller than China, or Germany+UK) might make it of interest, but so far BMW are clearly more interested in developing a car for customer racing programmes, than a headline factory effort... until next year in the WEC, when they'll finally build a car to the regs, rather than modifying the GT3 car.

[AntDX316]

Anyone record the incar crash of the BMW? I was doing other things as I didn't think they would crash as I watched the whole 24H race live.

[adc]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

Its easier to have restrictors/tune on the TTV8 that already is pushing close to 600 in street tune, than it is to boost up the S55 to 500, when the GTS needs (the gimmick) water injection to get that close. The TTV8 ain't stressed, but the S55 would more than likely probably. If any of these tuners have a 500 hp S55 that can last 12 of Sebring, 24 hours of Daytona, 24 hours of Le Mans, then by all means, then they need to develop and bring that car as a privateer or allow some type of backdoor BMW support.

To me the M6 is like the Bentley Conti GT race car, great concept, but out of place in a sense. And I guess that is why you don't see the Bentley in the Weathertech series, but racing at Bathurst....

Remember, the car before the M6 was the insane Z4LM with the NA V8, that I believe was in the M3 Team RLL racecar. How they got that thru the rules, I would like to know.
But, BMW basically has NO sports car to run, and no engine to run in said sports car. Audi has the R8 with the V10, Mercedes the AMG GT with the TTV8. I think that Lexus has the RC-F in GTD (didn't follow that class) Maybe when the new 6 series, which is supposed to be a Porsche 911 competitor comes out, then they will have a car. But, what will the engine be? But, until then, BMW is stuck with a big GT dealing with sports cars.


Honorable mention---the Cadillac ATS-V coupe in another series.

I disagree with you on this, It's not hard to make the S55 reliable in race trim at 500BHP. Even if they had to use water injection, not a big deal - and personally I don't think they'd need to.

I have found the S55 to be incredibly thermically stable, and that in a stock heavy street car. And no oil consumption whatsoever, which is unheard of in any previous generation M car. Drop hundreds of pounds with a bespoke race car like they did with the M6, bump the HP by 50 or so and they would be in a much better spot.

Bad thing is that it's too late right now.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by lan4

The M6 hasn't been that reliable anyway, 1 of the 2 goes out every race for some mechanical reason or another. Maybe not the TTV8 as root cause, but what's the difference if your not on the pace of the competition.

Yes, I think the M4 would be a better choice. Porsche (NA) and Ford (TTV6) are running 6's, why not? If the S55 is that close to blowing up with 500HP, then that doesn't say much for the longevity of my F80, or all the S55's out there with tunes. Most of racing is for marketing anyway....who the heck races M6's other than BMW corporate? The M3/4 is the car BMW should be racing, no question IMHO.

Also as a few posts have said, I don't think Rahal's team is good at the BOP lobbying. With Ganassi and Corvette in GTLM, BMW is not in a good position with the monstrous M6, and lets face it, BOP charity from IMSA is what it takes for this M6 to compete with a Ford GT, Corvette, Ferrari, etc.

The M4 has a 3.0L I6 tt. That's the smaller displacement than any car in GTLM. The Ford GT runs a 3.5L V6tt. Even the naturally aspirated Porsches are 4.0L.

There's a massive difference between running 500 HP on the street, and running >500 HP in a 12 or 24 hour race. Can it be done? Sure. There are DPi cars running 2.0L I4t engines putting out more HP than any of the GTLM cars, but at what cost? RLL has to buy the cars and field them for a season. GTLM is not supposed to cost as much as running a DPi car.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

Remember, the car before the M6 was the insane Z4LM with the NA V8, that I believe was in the M3 Team RLL racecar. How they got that thru the rules, I would like to know.

FWIW, the Z4 GTLM and GT3 ran the P65 racing engine, which is a 4.0L V8, very similar to the M3 GT2 before it. BMW received a waiver to run the P65 in the Z4 GTLM and Z4 GT3, which was signed off on by all the other manufacturers.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by adc

I disagree with you on this, It's not hard to make the S55 reliable in race trim at 500BHP. Even if they had to use water injection, not a big deal - and personally I don't think they'd need to.

I have found the S55 to be incredibly thermically stable, and that in a stock heavy street car. And no oil consumption whatsoever, which is unheard of in any previous generation M car. Drop hundreds of pounds with a bespoke race car like they did with the M6, bump the HP by 50 or so and they would be in a much better spot.

Bad thing is that it's too late right now.

Oh? You run a lot of 24h track days out in your neck of the woods?

What's your running cost at those 24h track days?

How many hours between rebuilds?

I'm not going to sit here and pretend to know that the S55 absolutely isn't viable in the IMSA GTLM class, but the physics are stacked against it. The smallest displacement engine in the competition is the Ford GT at 3.5L. That's a 14% displacement advantage over the S55, and in endurance racing, displacement matters. Just look at all the teething issues the I4t powered DPi cars had. Meanwhile, the 6.2L V8 Cadillacs cruised to victory.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Matski

The BoP hasn't helped, the early season tyre change to the WEC compound hurt them, they had some bad luck (double DNF thanks to a single badly driven Ferrari, for example)... but alongside that, the car has had a number of technical issues.. and yes, fundamentally it hasn't had the pace. I don't think any single one of these things explains the results (or lack of), but in combination, in such a small field, they add up and it sticks out like a sore thumb.



Well, clearly they need to win, that's the point of it. The fact is they don't have a car that can go toe to toe with the competition. The Ford GT was purpose built to go racing, the M6 was built off the 5-er architecture, and the 5-er is built to sell in 520d junior executive guise.

The perceived size of the North American market (i.e. smaller than China, or Germany+UK) might make it of interest, but so far BMW are clearly more interested in developing a car for customer racing programmes, than a headline factory effort... until next year in the WEC, when they'll finally build a car to the regs, rather than modifying the GT3 car.

Matski nailed it. It's not any single thing that is killing them. Your point about how it sticks out like a sore thumb in a small field is really relevant.

I'm extremely curious what they're going to base their GTE car on. Maybe we'll see an M4 GTE, and I'll be proven wrong. Maybe BMW has a plan to extract more from a race version of the S55 than they originally thought. The engine is definitely more mature today than it was when the M6 GT3 was developed, and the development of the M4 GTS & M4 GT4 must have taught them something.