[AIRPOWER]

Originally Posted by chaungo

Drive the car and it'll answer the question for you.

I cannot go back to any non luxury brand anymore, driving hondas or Toyota is boring as hell, and it feels strange.

There is something about mercedes, audi, bmw, lexus etc.. that keeps you hooked, it's hard to explain.

It's called being spoiled.....you are now ruined for life Sir! Unless of course, you lose your job, all your money, your wife leaves you and your dog gets shot.....then it's back to a Corolla, at which you will still be spoiled but just add miserable and bitter to the list.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BoostedRide

Small portion of it maybe. For example, GM has had mag ride suspension for a long time & it's very good.

Let's be precise... GM invented magnetic fluid dampers.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Em135eye

Options are such a rip off though.
There's a well known case where a standard engine A6 was optioned up to nearly £80k (base car was half that); the options retained about 10% of their value in three years.

We view a few things as fairly important but the only vital thing is a good engine and chassis.

Depends on the option and the vehicle. Compare the value of a 3 year old 2wd pickup being sold in Michigan to a 4wd pickup and you will get far more back than 10%.

Also, I can see the argument for every luxury car being a ripoff. Buy a base Accord for $22k and it will do everything a 4 door sedan buyer really needs. Past that you are buying what you want and if you want a $500 option on a $60k vehicle it would be really dumb to not get it because it isn't a good value.

[Em135eye]

By slight fluke, all our options (except paint) retain very good GFV percentages.
Some stuff like Adaptive dampers (which I don't like) retain zero.

[BEM-S4]

My coworker just got a brand new civic with all kinds of tech I don't have in my M235. For what he wanted (and wanted to spend) it's a nice car. But it's all show and no go. Just depends on desires and budget. Bought a gf a Fiat 500 to drive around town. Easy to park, great on gas, fun. Highway? No thank you. She does like 3k miles a year, so for her it's perfect.

[TheRealEssad]

You do have a point. This is why I bought a Mazda3 nine years ago instead of a 328 or Acura TSX. I got all the options I wanted for $10k+ less than the other cars. And that Mazda has been really reliable, and very fun.

But now that I've driven several BMW's, I want that taste everyday, so I'm looking into getting one.

But there are plenty of people who drive Nissan's and are satisfied with its performance. Many of the Japanese cars are above average performance, and to the layman that's good enough. A lot of people won't be able to tell the difference.

[Ravenseal]

Honestly, the Toyota Avalon can be had fully-optioned for 32-35k. I don't think you can get a better, overall daily sedan. Quality, reliability, options. Luxury that will last 20 years. I wouldn't take a single entry-level german sedan over it.

[FriskyDingo]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Honestly, the Toyota Avalon can be had fully-optioned for 32-35k. I don't think you can get a better, overall daily sedan. Quality, reliability, options. Luxury that will last 20 years. I wouldn't take a single entry-level german sedan over it.

A fully loaded Avalon is 40K+ MSRP. They are a very nice car, however, though rather humdrum to drive, and a poor ride.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

A fully loaded Avalon is 40K+ MSRP. They are a very nice car, however, though rather humdrum to drive, and a poor ride.

Sounds a lot like an F30 too.

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

A fully loaded Avalon is 40K+ MSRP. They are a very nice car, however, though rather humdrum to drive, and a poor ride.

Eh, Toyota sells by volume. You can very easily negotiate the price, or find a low-mileage unit. If anyone buys a Toyota at MSRP, they deserve no sympathy. Same goes for Nissan, Honda, Hyundai.

[Em135eye]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Eh, Toyota sells by volume. You can very easily negotiate the price, or find a low-mileage unit. If anyone buys a Toyota at MSRP, they deserve no sympathy. Same goes for Nissan, Honda, Hyundai.

Same goes for ANY brand.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Eh, Toyota sells by volume. You can very easily negotiate the price, or find a low-mileage unit. If anyone buys a Toyota at MSRP, they deserve no sympathy. Same goes for Nissan, Honda, Hyundai.

Bought my BMW for $500 over invoice (nearly $4k below MSRP). Car was special ordered and literally the first 2010 135i delivered in the US.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by ThinkRevolutionx

I've been giving this some thought with what I view as kind of a revolution in the quality of vehicles. Ten years ago, almost every non luxury brand was a sort of econobox no frills transport vehicle.

Nowadays, the "boring" brands have really come out swinging and are only getting better. Fantastic vehicles can be had for killer prices, the new maxima, mazda 6, redesigned civic, etc etc.

I recall when pricing out my 435, how far I had to go in order to match up with the options available on a $23,000 toyota. This brought me to a fundamental thought..

Are we emotionally invested in branding, or are we really getting more vehicle for our money?

To make it more simple (I know specific examples can be cited that may not prove this true, i'm speaking broadly) you can take almost any "size" vehicle - compact, midsize, large, suv, truck from the non luxury brands, and get an optioned to the teeth version for around where the luxury brand would start with no options at all.

Is the experience really that different in the Lexus and Infiniti?
Why get the Range Rover over the Ford explorer platinum with every option known to man? The 335i over the Maxima with quadruple the options at the same price point, etc.

Genuinely curious about peoples opinions and experiences.

Edited for grammar.

I dunno, why buy the nicer designer jeans when you can get the same thing at Walmart for a fraction of the cost?

[FriskyDingo]

I think the gap is much, much narrower here than what many would like to admit.


I'm all for premium brands and products, and I love BMW. But I'm a realist, and as someone who has worked in the car business for almost 10 years, and is currently at a dealership with everything from 10K Hyundais to 200K Bentleys, that gap is sometimes nothing more than imaginary. People would be surprised at how loaded Fusions and Hondas and the like stand up to base BMW's and Audis when driven back to back. I actually have.

Sometimes there is still a delta, particularly in driving dynamics and refinement. In the overwhelming majority of cases, however, the loaded standard cars use materials just as nice and have fit and finish that is on par with premium brands, as well. Not to mention options you can't even get. You can get ventilated seats on a Kia Rio, but not a 3 Series. Why do you have to pay extra for 'Enhanced USB and Bluetooth' and a backup camera on a 50K car? It's absurd.

I often find myself in a few year old AMG or Jaguar or something and being wowed at just how bad some areas are inside. Steering wheels and stalks in particular. But also sometimes even switch gear and trim pieces. Conversely, some of even the cheapest cars have nice materials, controls, and trim. My new GTI has fit and finish as good as, if not better than, many cars costing much, much more money. And the driving experience delivers, too.

Long story short, for anyone other than the most enthusiastic among us, I'd say the loaded mainstream offering is a much better buy than a base model premium offering. And even as an enthusiast, sometimes I'd even take the mainstream car. I'll take a Fusion Titanium over a CLA all day every day. But I won't take a V6 Accord over a stripper 320i 6MT w/ Sport Pkg. I just don't there are enough premium cars that are compelling enough to drive in rent-a-spec guise to justify it.

[mremg]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

I dunno, why buy the nicer designer jeans when you can get the same thing at Walmart for a fraction of the cost?

I don't think so. Entry level luxury cars don't really compare to 'designer jeans'. This is a nice example of brand snobbery.

[FriskyDingo]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Eh, Toyota sells by volume. You can very easily negotiate the price, or find a low-mileage unit. If anyone buys a Toyota at MSRP, they deserve no sympathy. Same goes for Nissan, Honda, Hyundai.

Of course nobody pays MSRP for a Toyota, but even at net-net with incentives, you're not getting an Avalon Limited for 32K. You can maybe get close to 35K for a gas car, but that's it.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by mremg

I don't think so. Entry level luxury cars don't really compare to 'designer jeans'. This is a nice example of brand snobbery.

He was speaking broadly in terms of luxury vs. non-luxury not entry luxury so I was doing the same thing. I don't actually think my car is like Prada or anything like that.

It isn't brand snobbery at all (although admittedly I was really broad in my explanation so I could see how you'd think that).

You do get better overall quality with a luxury brand vs. your typical non-luxury brand much in the same way a pair of jeans from Walmart probably won't be as nice of a quality as a pair of brand name designer jeans.

Beyond the jeans comparison, with luxury vs. non-luxury, luxury cars tend to drive better, come with faster engines and have more advanced technology. Hell my F30 comes with adjustable suspension (a must have for me since the roads around here can be fun, but many of the roads are in awful shape), which is something you can't get on your "non-luxury" car.

And for the money, I'd much rather drive a Focus ST or a Focus RS than, say, an IS350 Lexus. I don't care about the badge, I really just care how fun it is to drive, what fun gadgets it has in it and the overall quality of the interior.

[G8rGrl]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

I think the gap is much, much narrower here than what many would like to admit.


I'm all for premium brands and products, and I love BMW. But I'm a realist, and as someone who has worked in the car business for almost 10 years, and is currently at a dealership with everything from 10K Hyundais to 200K Bentleys, that gap is sometimes nothing more than imaginary. People would be surprised at how loaded Fusions and Hondas and the like stand up to base BMW's and Audis when driven back to back. I actually have.

Sometimes there is still a delta, particularly in driving dynamics and refinement. In the overwhelming majority of cases, however, the loaded standard cars use materials just as nice and have fit and finish that is on par with premium brands, as well. Not to mention options you can't even get. You can get ventilated seats on a Kia Rio, but not a 3 Series. Why do you have to pay extra for 'Enhanced USB and Bluetooth' and a backup camera on a 50K car? It's absurd.

I often find myself in a few year old AMG or Jaguar or something and being wowed at just how bad some areas are inside. Steering wheels and stalks in particular. But also sometimes even switch gear and trim pieces. Conversely, some of even the cheapest cars have nice materials, controls, and trim. My new GTI has fit and finish as good as, if not better than, many cars costing much, much more money. And the driving experience delivers, too.

Long story short, for anyone other than the most enthusiastic among us, I'd say the loaded mainstream offering is a much better buy than a base model premium offering. And even as an enthusiast, sometimes I'd even take the mainstream car. I'll take a Fusion Titanium over a CLA all day every day. But I won't take a V6 Accord over a stripper 320i 6MT w/ Sport Pkg. I just don't there are enough premium cars that are compelling enough to drive in rent-a-spec guise to justify it.

I agree with all of this. Neither the Fusion nor the CLA are my cup of tea...but I get the point.

[BloomRunsDubs]

Thats why I dont buy luxury/High end cars brand new. Get yourself a low mileage used one for the same price as the optioned out non-luxury brand car and your winning.

It also has a lot to do with the looks of the nicer cars vs the lower end cars. I dont care how optioned out a Ford Explorer platinum is a base model Range Rover sport v6 still looks a hell of alot better and has a better interior.

"Fully optioned" doesnt mean that these companys use real leather or quality on the interior. Every Ford and Chevy I've ever been in short of a C7 has felt like a piece of crap compared to Audi, Bmw, RR, mercedes, etc

I dont need to have any silly gadgets in my cars like wifi. As long as I can listen to music and drive a nice good looking car im happy

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by kunzjob

My advice: Go to Germany, drive on the Autobahn, witness the vehicles around you, then ask yourself the same question. My answer is HELL YES I want a German automobile that can routinely handle that abuse year after year while I putt around here in the states (NYC) and spend most of my time below 75mph and some 98% of my time below 100mph.

German cars handle abuse ? Many people with German cars baby them and they still fall apart. Its gotten better but years ago German cars used to fall apart like cheap cardboards. Thats why they depreciate like hell, and thats why many buy Japanese cars instead.

I am shopping for a car right now and will be overpaying alot just to get in to performance Jap car which are pain in the ass to find as well. Just looking at German competitors makes me sad because they are easier to find and cheaper, but after having German and Jap cars, I am sick of dealership visits

And I am not saying Germans are bad, its just your statement is 100% wrong

[BloomRunsDubs]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

German cars handle abuse ? Many people with German cars baby them and they still fall apart. Its gotten better but years ago German cars used to fall apart like cheap cardboards. Thats why they depreciate like hell, and thats why many buy Japanese cars instead.

I am shopping for a car right now and will be overpaying alot just to get in to performance Jap car which are pain in the ass to find as well. Just looking at German competitors makes me sad because they are easier to find and cheaper, but after having German and Jap cars, I am sick of dealership visits

And I am not saying Germans are bad, its just your statement is 100% wrong

You're right about regular jap cars being more reliable then regular German cars, but Japanese performance cars being more reliable then German performance cars? I dont think so.

Evos are crap, WRX's are crap, not sure about s2ks & Zs but there too small and slow for me anyways. Not sure about lexus either. My M3 has been more reliable and way cheaper to maintain then my GT-R. The only other Japanese performance car I can think of is the NSX and they cost about 40k more then they are worth.

The Japanese are good at making economical cars for the average person. Not performance cars for an enthusiast, aside from a few.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by BloomRunsDubs

You're right about regular jap cars being more reliable then regular German cars, but Japanese performance cars being more reliable then German performance cars? I dont think so.

Evos are crap, WRX's are crap, not sure about s2ks & Zs but there too small and slow for me anyways. Not sure about lexus either. My M3 has been more reliable and way cheaper to maintain then my GT-R. The only other Japanese performance car I can think of is the NSX and they cost about 40k more then they are worth.

The Japanese are good at making economical cars for the average person. Not performance cars for an enthusiast, aside from a few.

Well I have S2000 now and looking at getting into ISF. Can get M235, M3, or Cayman S for same money but don't really want to due to poor reliability record. I can only speak for S2k and it's light years ahead in build quality then my previous M3 and 335 combined, i assume NSX (pre-2016) is the same.
Been doing some research on is350 and ISF, seem to be great reliabile cars as well (335 and M3 equivalent)
With Germans you get amazing cars for its value if you purchase used. If I didn't care or wasn't afraid of reliability, I would purchase slighty used Maserati today. Some of those are even greater value then BMW etc. We are talking $25-35k for a low miles Ferrari V8