[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by valbmw

Let me oppose you a little: all brands research the alternative fuel systems (electricity, hydrogen, ethanol) and this has started after the oil crisis in the 70-s.

As for the diesel, Mercedes-Benz and Peugeot were pioneers in diesel engines for passenger sedans, while the first BMW's M21 was produced in Austria in cooperation with Magna Steyr in 1983, for the 534td. I own a diesel car (after several petrol fueled BMW's) and find the engine perfect.

The electricity looks strange so far, also the hybrids. However they just complement performance cars with another product line, nothing about replacing them. Nothing happens to M division and also there are the cars with N63TU (450 hp), so the things are not so bad.

Let's put aside addiction to BMW brand and be honest: it is one of the German top brands but never was the exceptional one. It is really another option and not special. Maybe Porsche was, but look where it is now sitting under VW umbrella. And how many English super hero brands disappeared without being smart and agile at necessary moment.

And finally, this is the short term wave of disappointment vs. long term strategy to survive and stay on top. Maybe you and I will not like this future "top" but hey, who cares.

After the oil shortages of the 70s makers looked at diesel briefly. It wasn't until the last decade or so they looked at hybrids etc. Fuel cells are bs. They work but currently it takes more energy to make the hydrogen than just to power the car by gas.

BMW exceptionalism was in its performance. In Germany they say you drive a BMW. A mercedes drives you. They're getting away from that. If they get away from the sports edge, they will loose more market share to mercedes than they gain.

And long term, for me is a couple production cycles. Gas will dominate. Electric and hybrids continue to shrink, as fuel prices continue to drop. This is what will happen if a Republican president is elected. Gas taps will open up on federal land, oil will drop to preobama prices at $1.65 a gallon, and hybrids and electrics will be only bought by the ultra tree huggers. I don't see them replacing 30 mpg cars as the dominant market share for another 30+yrs.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

True But their largest market share is US by far.

No it isn't.
It's the largest market as a (1) country, but there are not more bmw's sold in the US than everywhere in the world.
BMW as a brand sells about 300.000 to 350.000 cars a year in the us.
The total production of bmw's worldwide annually is 2.1 million (2012 figure).
So the US market is good for roughly 15% of bmw.
Europe has much larger sales.
For example BMW north america sold 309,280 vehicles in 2013.
European sales were 639.656 in 2013. That's over double.

There's a very very big world out there

[1MOREMOD]

Good by then I won't care about what I drive much. I have 2 diesels now as well as my e46 track car. On the road I'm fine with whatever as long as my nuts aren't clipped at the track.

[Fundguy1]

I never complained about the diesel. I get it. But not hybrids or electrics. And not getting away from sportiness for "innovative" inferior tech.

[GuidoK]

Where I think BMW is lacking most is that they don't make enough exotic models that can function as a 'image maker'.
I mean mercedes had the SLS (and sls black series), SLR, now AMG GT, Audi has the R8, but bmw doesnt make any of that stuff anymore.
They used to occasionaly make somewhat exotic cars (Z8, Z1 as image maker, and the M1, and more or less the 8 series), but I don't see them do that anymore and don't expect they will anymore..

[valbmw]

Your knowledge about diesel is true but only within the national market borders. Let's have a wider look.

More than 50% of BMW cars sold to Europe (total pop. 750 Mln.) and it quickly turns diesel:
- gas in Europe (premium) averages to 1.5 Euro/l = 6.15 USD/gal lqd.
- taxation system and corporate policies make diesel the most affordable option for private/corporate.

50% of the new cars sold in the UK are diesels, in Spain and Italy it is 70%. Europe average is 55%. In the US and Japan it is 10%.
I love your market, taxes and your prices.


http://www.slideshare.net/lorenzilli...alysis-5879711

[valbmw]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Where I think BMW is lacking most is that they don't make enough exotic models that can function as a 'image maker'.
I mean mercedes had the SLS (and sls black series), SLR, now AMG GT, Audi has the R8, but bmw doesnt make any of that stuff anymore.
They used to occasionaly make somewhat exotic cars (Z8, Z1 as image maker, and the M1, and more or less the 8 series), but I don't see them do that anymore and don't expect they will anymore..

This is true, I totally agree with you. All we've got new from BMW is Laser beams and the Lego-looking i8.

[Obioban]

.... BMW has gone to shit. The don't make a single car I want to own anymore. In 2002, I wanted every single car they made. Hell, I still want every car they made in 2002

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by valbmw

This is true, I totally agree with you. All we've got new from BMW is Laser beams and the Lego-looking i8.

Yup Where's the new M1 supercar? Their answer to the z06, viper, Ford GT, etc.

[valbmw]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Yup Where's the new M1 supercar? Their answer to the z06, viper, Ford GT, etc.

Right, where is that damn thing?
Five years of promises, rumors and renders... now it's about the 2016.

[Meeni]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Electric and hybrids continue to shrink, as fuel prices continue to drop. This is what will happen if a Republican president is elected. Gas taps will open up on federal land, oil will drop to preobama prices

Lol, or we'll start another useless war in the middle east and the price of gas will skyrocket because of the unstable conditions. Gas is already cheaper than during most of Bush3, and never has more gas been pumped out than under Obama in the last 40 years. Wether you like Obama or not, don't get your ears washed with the wrong TV channel, some people lie a lot on TV.

That being said, yes, low gas price can and will limit the penetration of hybrid vehicles. The late drop in gas price for the last 2 years has already affected the buying habits on new vehicles.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by sixburgh

That why I drive this.

totally. well done.

the only reason i drive a BMW right now is because of the E82. What a car in all of its engine options.

i grew up in love with the E30.........the rest of the BMW lineup makes the E30 roll over in its grave.....but at least they made the E82.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Meeni

Gas is already cheaper than during most of Bush3, and never has more gas been pumped out than under Obama in the last 40 years.

That's a joke. It was $1.65 a gallon when he took office. And he closed up shop on federal lands and offshore or it would be a buck now And closing up shop and his artificial high prices are what made fracking economically feasible which the only reason we make more now. And they dropped temporarily now cause the Saudis want to put the frackers out of biz. And they will be higher than ever soon unless the federal lands are reopened by the next president. And don't try to blame a news channel for Obamas failings being blown out of proportion then instead of citing gas prices which was the topic take an obscure related topic of domestic production growing without the reasons why and use that as evidence. Maybe you should watch a few more news programs Your reference is like saying sure clinton was banging his intern and lied about it on national tv. But hey, he paid for her dry cleaning after so he's a misunderstood good guy. Total joke.

Here's the chart I even got one adjusted for inflation which the government says doesn't exist because they stopped counting food costs and energy costs so they could make the numbers look good

Die hybrid die

[Sephiroth]

Great post OP! Summarizes my sentiments to a T.

[fecurtis]

This is a little silly.

It's a select few cherry picked ads.

Here's a another recent one:

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

This is a little silly.

It's a select few cherry picked ads.

Here's a another recent one:

I counter you with this

[Blksnowflake]

Originally Posted by Obioban

.... BMW has gone to shit. The don't make a single car I want to own anymore. In 2002, I wanted every single car they made. Hell, I still want every car they made in 2002

[Meeni]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

That's a joke.
Here's the chart I even got one adjusted for inflation which the government

Remind me who was president in 2003 and invaded an oil producing country, therefore creating an offer shock ? Then we are not in 2011 anymore, the price of gas is back to low levels, and the US is a net exporter of crude for the first time since the 80s. Anyway, believe what you want.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

No it isn't.
It's the largest market as a (1) country, but there are not more bmw's sold in the US than everywhere in the world.
BMW as a brand sells about 300.000 to 350.000 cars a year in the us.
The total production of bmw's worldwide annually is 2.1 million (2012 figure).
So the US market is good for roughly 15% of bmw.
Europe has much larger sales.
For example BMW north america sold 309,280 vehicles in 2013.
European sales were 639.656 in 2013. That's over double.

There's a very very big world out there

The numbers from last year, taken from the 2014 annual report, were:

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Meeni

Remind me who was president in 2003 and invaded an oil producing country, therefore creating an offer shock ? Then we are not in 2011 anymore, the price of gas is back to low levels, and the US is a net exporter of crude for the first time since the 80s. Anyway, believe what you want.

Oil aftershock? Lol

1st you didn't admit prices were higher now retracting your previous statement
2nd NOBODY was blaming oil aftershock during the Bush years or anytime. During Bush years it was oil speculators who were the evil guts pushing gas from $1.50 to $2.50 a gallon Everybody inferred that because Bush was from Texas and family was oil that he was letting it happen. But there was never proof. Just barely an idea. I don't hear anything about that now and truth be told it was and still is legal investment behavior by investors who aren't related to Bush or his buddies
3rd prices went up dramatically 7 years later. That's quite an aftershock. Just so happened to consider with Obama implementation of his new energy policies by his new energy secretary who publicly stated he wanted gas over $4 a gallon to break America's gas guzzling car addiction and get them to buy hybrids.They shut down drastically the majority of US production including offshore Most of the offshore rigs left for places like the north sea. Takes years for these things to move and wI'll take years to get them back. Result was prices so red during his first couple years in office even though oil was coming online from Iraq during this time and Iraq had been stabile by Bush
4th Iraq production is tiny part of oil production but prices have doubled long term under Obama. Iraq doesn't account for even a small fraction of this increase.
5th and Iraqi production was online again under Bush. It went offline when Obama looking for a legacy as the war ender removed the stabilizing force from Iraq and opening up the power vacuum that allowed ISIS to rise and take over. ISIS continues to try to produce oil to fund their operation but we continue to try to shut it down. They wouldn't even exist in Iraq if we hadn't pulled out.
Sorry but he's been around for too long. Someday he will have to take responsibility for the worst presidency in history economically and foreign policy and stop blaming Bush. 6 yrs and countin . Can't wait till next Democrat is elected president, sometime after 2024, and tries to blame Bush again. Lol You didn't hear Reagan blame Carter for anything. Why, because he fixed the problems and led us into a 20+ year period of prosperity and because he had class and respect for the office. Just like Bush now not speaking out against Obama. Sad.
oil production is up on private land dye to fracking. Brown
offshore up due to startups under Bush dark blue


Obama killed startups offshore

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

True But their largest market share is US by far. I don't know if the electrics are doing well in Europe but they aren't here

The US market was overtaken by China as BMWs largest market in 2012.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by bmw1racer

You said it.

BMWs used to be all about driving... The term "Ultimate Driving Machine" nowadays is becoming more of a punchline.

" The Ultimate Driving Machine" is a marketing term used in English based markets like North America and the UK only it is not used globally.
The global marketing term in English is "Freude am Fahren"
"Sheer Driving Pleasure"