[AiredaleDad]

I think one of the issues it that Tesla is a technology company, not a car company like someone else said above. They were the true pioneers, who developed the first practical electric cars for daily use. Before them we only had the likes of the Nissan Leaf and Toyota Prius which were very spartan and did not really have the range to convince someone who drives thousands of highway miles a year to exchange their ICE vehicles for. My Son-in-law has a model Y. He loves it, but admits it is not really a luxury car. The interior materials, fit and finish are not what someone looking for a luxury car wants. Whereas now, the technology is more mature, and other car makers more used to turning out premium luxury cars, are now adding in highly luxurious automobiles to their EV lineups. Someone willing and able to buy/lease a $60-100K + BEV car is not really going for a Tesla anymore. They are not really a status symbol anymore. Those individuals, many are going for BMW, Mercedes, Genesis etc. because they are making EV's that are much more luxurious, and sporty. And they are able to give Tesla a run for the money in range. Don't get me wrong. Tesla is still king on that. But the difference is not so much that people shy away from them in favor of Tesla. So Now, if they want to remain in the running, Tesla is now the one having to play catch-up in the luxury department.

[mose121]

Originally Posted by hufington

Hopefully they do not lower the overall quality any further to match Tesla profits!

Tesla is the one having to constantly slash prices to stay competitive, and removing standard options from their cars to reduce costs. They are the ones cancelling cheaper, entry level models, and building cars that are only fads or pet projects. We are at a major inflection point, and Tesla is on the road to a slow, painful death.

[AiredaleDad]

Originally Posted by mose121

Tesla is the one having to constantly slash prices to stay competitive, and removing standard options from their cars to reduce costs. They are the ones cancelling cheaper, entry level models, and building cars that are only fads or pet projects. We are at a major inflection point, and Tesla is on the road to a slow, painful death.

Maybe they should stick to building power systems, and leave the car business to car builders.

[mhmmX5]

Let’s be logical here and actually make sense of this… BMW (which I own) passed Tesla in EV sales in Europe, for the month JULY. This is not a yearly or quarterly statistic.
Let’s not forget Tesla Model Y was the highest selling VEHICLE, in all of Europe in 2023.

It’s human nature to just read headlines and assume.

With that said, it’s only a matter of time until the BMW’s, Mercedes, GM, Ford’s - have greater EV sales than Tesla on a more consistent basis. I don’t believe Demand is necessarily increasing for EV at a wild pace, BUT the Supply of EV vehicles is increasing significantly from every manufacturer.

Don’t sell Tesla stock and don’t sell your BMW (the ultimate driving machine).

[AiredaleDad]

Originally Posted by mhmmX5

Let’s be logical here and actually make sense of this… BMW (which I own) passed Tesla in EV sales in Europe, for the month JULY. This is not a yearly or quarterly statistic.
Let’s not forget Tesla Model Y was the highest selling VEHICLE, in all of Europe in 2023.

It’s human nature to just read headlines and assume.

With that said, it’s only a matter of time until the BMW’s, Mercedes, GM, Ford’s - have greater EV sales than Tesla on a more consistent basis. I don’t believe Demand is necessarily increasing for EV at a wild pace, BUT the Supply of EV vehicles is increasing significantly from every manufacturer.

Don’t sell Tesla stock and don’t sell your BMW (the ultimate driving machine).

I think that's because at the time the Tesla model Y was the first Tesla available to the public that was affordable to the general population. The base price in the US for example was in the low 40's before tax credits. The model X was a huge jump to almost $80K for the base model. So now, your average person in the market for a mid-size SUV, like a Honda CRV or Toyota RAV 4 could afford to buy or lease one for not a lot more cash. Of course everyone who had been drooling after Teslas was going to run and buy one.

Or, like my son-in-law told me of his (Total Millennial) experience. He went online and ordered one. There was no salesman. No human interaction at all. You downloaded the app, ordered your car with the options you wanted. They notified you on the app when to pick it up, and where, and they even transmitted his digital key on the app to turn it on, and drive it off the lot. He said there was nobody to meet him at he service center to go over the car, or to teach you about features, or how to operate it safely. Everything was online or the App. Even the financial transaction was completely over the internet He just made a transfer from his bank. Everything was on the app. Including taxes, tags and registration fees. He sent them a copy of his insurance card for the car before they would unlock the digital key. If there are any flaws, you mark it on the app, send pictures and they either schedule you for a service visit to get it taken care of, or you can refuse delivery and they let you know when to come back. You want a charger installed in your garage? Order it on the app and an installer comes to your house.

Sure you can go to a Tesla experience center at the mall and look at cars. But they don't sell them to you. They just answer questions to people interested, and direct you to the website. You can even buy used, reconditioned ones on the App. It's like buying a car from Amazon.

I think it was cool at the time. But IMO more and more people are over it. They want that human interaction. Someone buying a new car, whether it's a BMW or a KIA, wants someone there to hand them the keys, and walk them through their new car. Show them how everything works and inspect the car for any flaws or damage prior to accepting delivery. They want to feel like someone cares, and is taking the time to enhance their experience. They want their freshly polished and perfectly detailed new (or new to them) car to be out front and center in the entry of the dealership, so everyone there looking (And hoping) at maybe buying a car can see them going over and taking delivery of their new car. They don't want to walk on a huge lot with a digital key, have to find their new car by a numbered slot, unlock it and drive away without anyone seeing they are good to go. There is something to be said about that feeling. Why do you think dealerships have an area marked off out front where nobody parks?

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by AiredaleDad

I think that's because at the time the Tesla model Y was the first Tesla available to the public that was affordable to the general population. The base price in the US for example was in the low 40's before tax credits. The model X was a huge jump to almost $80K for the base model. So now, your average person in the market for a mid-size SUV, like a Honda CRV or Toyota RAV 4 could afford to buy or lease one for not a lot more cash. Of course everyone who had been drooling after Teslas was going to run and buy one.

Or, like my son-in-law told me of his (Total Millennial) experience. He went online and ordered one. There was no salesman. No human interaction at all. You downloaded the app, ordered your car with the options you wanted. They notified you on the app when to pick it up, and where, and they even transmitted his digital key on the app to turn it on, and drive it off the lot. He said there was nobody to meet him at he service center to go over the car, or to teach you about features, or how to operate it safely. Everything was online or the App. Even the financial transaction was completely over the internet He just made a transfer from his bank. Everything was on the app. Including taxes, tags and registration fees. He sent them a copy of his insurance card for the car before they would unlock the digital key. If there are any flaws, you mark it on the app, send pictures and they either schedule you for a service visit to get it taken care of, or you can refuse delivery and they let you know when to come back. You want a charger [...]

People who think of cars as appliances will surely not be put off by this sales strategy, especially young people who don’t know any different. I believe they also do a lot of home deliveries too, completing that “Amazon” experience.

EVs seem to me a “logic” decision more than an “emotion” decision, on average anyway… like A+B/C = EV. I don’t imagine too many people lusting over them. Few lust over a Camry either, but that’s still the the more normal and affordable solution.

[AiredaleDad]

Originally Posted by Blue Angel

People who think of cars as appliances will surely not be put off by this sales strategy, especially young people who don’t know any different. I believe they also do a lot of home deliveries too, completing that “Amazon” experience.

EVs seem to me a “logic” decision more than an “emotion” decision, on average anyway… like A+B/C = EV. I don’t imagine too many people lusting over them. Few lust over a Camry either, but that’s still the the more normal and affordable solution.

Agreed on both of those points. There is something to be said about the traditional car delivery experience. Not the sales process and scheming and scamming. But the picking up your new car part. The sales process is just fun for people like me who are wise to all the tricks and can send SA's, SM's and FM's fumbling.

I just don't agree with people who buy an EV thinking they are "Saving the planet". That won't happen until ALL chargers are refueled by replenishable energy. As long as there are charging stations powered by an electric grid that is fed by fossil fueled generator plants that will not be the case. I even saw one in Australia that had a single charging station connected to a Diesel Generator!!!!.

And not to mention the environmental impact of the strip mining (By Diesel powered heavy equipment) of the tons of raw materials, and hazardous chemicals involved in the refining of the Cobalt, Lithium, and other rare metals needed to produce a single EV battery.

It takes 7 years for a Tesla Model Y (The one with the smallest battery) to actually become carbon neutral. And then at 10 years the battery has to be replaced and the cycle starts all over. It cannot be economically recycled. There was a report that I read a couple of years ago that showed the real carbon footprint of the construction of a single Tesla EV was larger than a full sized V-8 SUV over 10 years.

[JoeAyalaM]

Originally Posted by NGT2

I don’t drive an EV. I don’t want one. I don’t want a Tesla.

That said, Tesla is a technology company that happens to make cars. Not a car company that happens to develop some technology.

I wouldn’t sell Tesla stock just based on the auto industry catching up to their cars. Maybe if there’s some other reason, sure. But not for that reason.

How about other reasons like that the Model 3, their core product, has a shitty interior and drives so bland when not at full right pedal. Or having the Chinese sell similar quality cars at 35% less. Or most of it's models being many years old and their inability to design new models in a fast and timely manner. And being a fact that more than 80% of Tesla's income comes from car sales, and that it's car's sales numbers are dropping as well as it's car prices... you just have to do your math about weather or not to sell Tesla shares.

I wonder why Tesla shares are so high, given their poor history of earnings per share but then I remember that there's so many naive people infatuated with Musk, the stock market artificially raised the price.

[Northstar1]

Is the comparison between full electric cars? If yes, this is a big news.

But if BMW Hybrids are counted, the comparison is superficial: (At least) here in North Europe you will get heavy discounts from taxes if you buy Hybrid over pure ICE. People are really buying ICE car, but they get it cheaper if they order it with "extra battery drive".

Real comparison should be: "What brand people buy when they buy an electric car".

[vinny84]

Originally Posted by JoeAyalaM

This is the inflection point in Tesla's rise and fall, people will realize that Tesla is not great, nor are it's car's. Now, real luxury brands offer better high end EVs and BYD offers much cheaper, similar ones.

Highest valued automaker? Come on!

The bedazzled ones who bought Tesla's shares better sell those ASAP.

I just picked up my second Model 3 LR two weeks ago. The redesign Model 3 is leaps and bounds above from the first gen. For the options they put in it and the price, it’s a bargain. I wouldn’t buy an i4 for $30k more.

[gar]

Originally Posted by Northstar1

Is the comparison between full electric cars? If yes, this is a big news.

But if BMW Hybrids are counted, the comparison is superficial: (At least) here in North Europe you will get heavy discounts from taxes if you buy Hybrid over pure ICE. People are really buying ICE car, but they get it cheaper if they order it with "extra battery drive".

Real comparison should be: "What brand people buy when they buy an electric car".

Yes it is, "BMW led the BEV market for the first time in July as EV registrations stalled": https://www.jato.com/resources/media...ation-slowdown

[Igor_M5]

What I find most interesting… is reading these replies, and seeing the difference in social intellect between the BEV & ICE owners on Bimmerpost 🤭

[Bimmerfun82]

I’m convinced the battle royale is not Tesla v BMW but Tesla v Toyota. If you look closely at the data, Toyota/Lexus has had a huge rebound at least in the US- up nearly 20% in 2024. I also wouldn’t be surprised if Tesla remains at 3% market share forever. They’ve carved a niche for themselves. Obviously Tesla was the prime mover to BEV and Toyota has taken a PHEV and future engine strategy while most everyone else has followed both approaches. The NK is a necesssry platform to compete. Seems like Ford and MB are disinvesting in BEV.

[JoeAyalaM]

Originally Posted by vinny84

I just picked up my second Model 3 LR two weeks ago. The redesign Model 3 is leaps and bounds above from the first gen. For the options they put in it and the price, it’s a bargain. I wouldn’t buy an i4 for $30k more.

I'm glad that you like your Tesla Model 3, but to call it NEW is only a marketing slogan. A few mechanical and screen upgrade, makes it a new model? Besides the exterior looks just the same.

All car makers call a car NEW, when there is a new generation, or else they call it refresh or LCI or whatever.

[GOLFFRR]

wow

[SportySpice]

Tesla’s primary product and revenue source is cars. It is a car company.

[RichardInCA]

Originally Posted by Blue Angel

People who think of cars as appliances will surely not be put off by this sales strategy, especially young people who don’t know any different. I believe they also do a lot of home deliveries too, completing that “Amazon” experience.

EVs seem to me a “logic” decision more than an “emotion” decision, on average anyway… like A+B/C = EV. I don’t imagine too many people lusting over them. Few lust over a Camry either, but that’s still the the more normal and affordable solution.

I’ll say there was a reasonable amount of emotion along with logic in my i5 decision. I very much like BMW’s brand, quality of engineering in cars I’ve owned in the past and am excited by what they’re doing with their take on making EV’s. The i5M60 hits a perfect sweet spot for me in terms of really comfortable luxury cruiser when I’m in traffic on the freeway, but just effortless push-you-back-in-your-seat performance when I need it. I don’t view it as an electric M or electric version of something else, I view it as a BMW performance EV.

I’m also fortunate, in Northen California we have a pretty good charger network (although I’m using home and work charging 99.9% of the time) and on top of that PG&E (for whom I normally have lots of negative things to say) has got fossil fuels down to 5% or so of their energy mix.

[RichardInCA]

Originally Posted by AiredaleDad

I just don't agree with people who buy an EV thinking they are "Saving the planet". That won't happen until ALL chargers are refueled by replenishable energy. As long as there are charging stations powered by an electric grid that is fed by fossil fueled generator plants that will not be the case. I even saw one in Australia that had a single charging station connected to a Diesel Generator!!!!.

And not to mention the environmental impact of the strip mining (By Diesel powered heavy equipment) of the tons of raw materials, and hazardous chemicals involved in the refining of the Cobalt, Lithium, and other rare metals needed to produce a single EV battery.

It takes 7 years for a Tesla Model Y (The one with the smallest battery) to actually become carbon neutral. And then at 10 years the battery has to be replaced and the cycle starts all over. It cannot be economically recycled. There was a report that I read a couple of years ago that showed the real carbon footprint of the construction of a single Tesla EV was larger than a full sized V-8 SUV over 10 years.

A lot of this stuff has been debunked elsewhere but the idea that a large number of charger stations have a hidden diesel generator tucked around the back is pretty laughable based on an n of 1 anecdote. There’s a lot to like about the new tech that BMW has built into their ICE’s. I don’t think that we need to double down on these anti-EV tropes to justify it.

[Blue Sky]

Correct, the model 3 HIghland is a refresh, not a new model.

However, it is quite an improvement. Cabin is quieter, adaptive suspension, better handling, faster charging, faster 0-60 and faster top-end acceleration. It’s blistering fast, handles and has sport and track modes that are fun and usable. For $55k you get the only 4000 lb EV sports car currently offered. You can mouth off about Tesla with silly rabid rants, but the refresh model 3 Performance is a noteworthy car. It isn’t big or luxurious, so it isn’t a 5-series competitor, but their cars cannot be ignored in terms of performance and driving fun value for the price. You do get sturdy seats, heated/vented in front, heated in back, 4 zone climate and driver assistance features and remote control, sport and track modes that are fun and adjustable. It’s not a 5-series competitor but more the size of a 3/4 series. The model 3 Performance weighs 4000 lbs, while the i4 weighs 5000 lbs. My M5 weighs 4300 lbs. BMW needs to get busy and finally produce an EV sports car.

No Teslas aren’t luxury cars, and the prices have adjusted finally to reflect that. Fine. I don’t get why people post with such anger about Tesla, constantly sniffing that buying a Tesla is beneath them, noone should buy it, or even that whole I would never buy an EV attitude. Fine. Buy what you want. Don’t buy what you don’t want. Stop trying to talk down to people who buy other things. Why is it so important that you “convince” others not to buy a Tesla or an EV? Why are you so angry? Maybe look into getting some therapy?

As to the buying process, I think that going to the dealer is overrated. I really don’t enjoy the haggling, and don’t really enjoy the pickup that much either. Maybe European delivery would be a great adventure, but that’s not available any more. For many people buying base model Teslas (mostly what is sold I think), it is just a driving appliance and ordering up on the smartphone is ideal. Tesla is actually trying to improve the delivery experience if you watch more recent Youtube videos, which is handy since everything is controlled through the touchscreen in those cabins, so some people really will need some coaching. Tesla isn’t alone either, I understand you buy an Ioniq 5 (and Ioniq 5N “hot hatch” as well?) on Amazon.

[R N M]

Great news for BMW.

I do wonder if they made any money selling any of these EVs. In the US, BMW can’t give these things away. Every new 5er i see is nonEV version and the iX has fire sale on them and still don’t sell like X5/X7.

[THEROK]

Originally Posted by JoeAyalaM

This is the inflection point in Tesla's rise and fall, people will realize that Tesla is not great, nor are it's car's. Now, real luxury brands offer better high end EVs and BYD offers much cheaper, similar ones.

Highest valued automaker? Come on!

The bedazzled ones who bought Tesla's shares better sell those ASAP.

I love my plaid

[Scrapula]

I think Tesla will lose out to the Chinese. I haven’t been able to see any of them in person, but they seem pretty decent on video reviews. Tesla market share will continue to erode. I purposely went EV shopping and took over a year looking and test driving everything on the market. I’m at a point where creature comforts matter. There really wasn’t a lot out there that was a decent EV with enough luxury features. There is Lucid and the German manufacturers. That’s it. Tesla Model Y is big in the US because it is inexpensive and works for a family with 3 kids. I think Chevrolet will start taking a chunk of that market. I don’t think I would hang on to Tesla stock.