[tony20009]

Originally Posted by Rg21044

My throw-away comment about what constitutes an expensive watch has overshadowed the real point of my post...I have a $300 watch that is 97% indistinguishable from a nearly $6k one.

That was the gist and purpose of my post.

Your point goes directly to at least one of the themes of the OP in this thread: if one merely wants a watch having a given look and that keeps time well enough, in most cases, a fake [insert maker's name] is as effective a choice as buying the authentic article of that same make and model. It's only when one attaches more meaning -- a social one in particular -- to a watch than it deserves as a time telling devices, regardless of whether the watch is fake or real, that buying/wearing a fake takes on shady over-/undertones, and that derives from a person, not the watch they wear. When Person A passes Person B, who is unknown to them, "on the street," so to speak, there's absolutely no way for Person A to know what social meaning Person B has assigned or not assigned to their watch. Thus Person A has absolutely no basis for actually caring or even pondering the watch Person B wears, aside perhaps from thinking something akin to "that's a nice looking watch."

Even as I don't care if another person is wearing a fake XYZ watch, if they and I were to engage in a discussion that compares and contrasts Watch X with Watch Y, they aren't in a strong position to contribute substantive value to the discussion of specific differences if they don't at least own an authentic version of one of the watches. As much as a watch and its mimic may look alike, the fact remains that the substance of the two is not alike at all. For folks who just want a look and don't care about any other attributes of the watch in question, a fake will do just fine. Moreover, given that what they value about watches is just the look, spending the money to buy the authentic version could be a foolhardy move for them inasmuch as doing so calls for them to spend thousands more than they need to in order to obtain that which they actually want.

All the best.

[dtwyim]

I think we all care too much about what the other guy owns, fake or not. The other person is wearing what they are wearing for whatever reason. Why does it matter to me? Let them live there own life, real or fake. If someone aspires to, or pretend to live the better life and wants to wear fake, so be it.

It is a free world, we are all entitled to do whatever we want (within reason of course).

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by dtwyim

I think we all care too much about what the other guy owns, fake or not. The other person is wearing what they are wearing for whatever reason. Why does it matter to me? Let them live there own life, real or fake. If someone aspires to, or pretend to live the better life and wants to wear fake, so be it.

It is a free world, we are all entitled to do whatever we want (within reason of course).

Theme of your post: 100% agree.

I'm not keen to equate a watch to living. Real or fake, buying and wearing watches is hardly a defining factor in one's life unless one makes/sells one or the other type. Even for someone like me who collects watches there's more, and more important things, going on than horologically related things.

All the best.

[dtwyim]

Originally Posted by tony20009

Theme of your post: 100% agree.

I'm not keen to equate a watch to living. Real or fake, buying and wearing watches is hardly a defining factor in one's life unless one makes/sells one or the other type. Even for someone like me who collects watches there's more, and more important things, going on than horologically related things.

All the best.

Unfortunately, in a money driven society, it matters to people. We all like to compare. How much do you make, size of the house, car you drive, watch you wear....status symbol.

I collect to please myself, not show off. You and I are not normal.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by dtwyim

Unfortunately, in a money driven society, it matters to people. We all like to compare. How much do you make, size of the house, car you drive, watch you wear....status symbol.

I collect to please myself, not show off. You and I are not normal.

Perhaps that's it.

I will admit to keeping track of whether I'm "winning or losing the game of life." Of course, the only person who can determine whether I'm winning or losing is the person who defined what the "finish like" looks like and where it is, and that person is me. LOL So, where others are in the game doesn't matter because looking at how and how well they have/are "played/playing" won't tell me how well I'm "playing."

I have lots of goals for myself, but not one of them has or ever will have money as the measure of whether I've achieved them. That just leads to the "I'll be happy when..." syndrome. The problem being that goals properly should evolve and change as one's life advances. So, if those goals depend on money (or the toys and trinkets one buy's with money) one will never "be happy when" because as one earns more, there are more things that one wants that are just out of reach. And if one loses those things that one bought to "be happy when," is one going to then be unhappy until one reacquires them? It's just a vicious cycle that never results in "when" becoming "now" and lasting long enough to keep one happy "later."

All the best.

[dtwyim]

Originally Posted by tony20009

Perhaps that's it.

I will admit to keeping track of whether I'm "winning or losing the game of life." Of course, the only person who can determine whether I'm winning or losing is the person who defined what the "finish like" looks like and where it is, and that person is me. LOL So, where others are in the game doesn't matter because looking at how and how well they have/are "played/playing" won't tell me how well I'm "playing."

I have lots of goals for myself, but not one of them has or ever will have money as the measure of whether I've achieved them. That just leads to the "I'll be happy when..." syndrome. The problem being that goals properly should evolve and change as one's life advances. So, if those goals depend on money (or the toys and trinkets one buy's with money) one will never "be happy when" because as one earns more, there are more things that one wants that are just out of reach. And if one loses those things that one bought to "be happy when," is one going to then be unhappy until one reacquires them? It's just a vicious cycle that never results in "when" becoming "now" and lasting long enough to keep one happy "later."

All the best.

+1

There is no end to chasing material things.

['02onthebrain]

Wow, that was a lot to scroll through, but to whoever posted the link to that Alpha homage watch site, thank you. My wife beats the heck out of her Raymond Weil to the point that it needs service every year and I wanted to get her something more for everyday wear. One of those Alphas fit the bill perfectly.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by dtwyim

+1

There is no end to chasing material things.

Sucks don't it.

[wristi]

quick answer.... NO. Who cares. Rock what you like and screw what the rest think.

[DocMick]

Fakes are fake. They're not replicas, they're counterfeits. If you're cool w that... if you purposely spend money on an item that falsely asserts to be something it's not, it says something about you.

What that something is.... is hard to define.... but in my world view it's unfavorable. I would cut any business ties with anyone that becomes askew when queried about the watch.


"Hey, nice Tag/Omega/Pam/Roles" I'd say but in my mind, I'm critiquing that AR coating, that dial, the milkiness of the crystal. If I have to wonder about the watch, I will wonder about the person and the likelihood that I'm going to get paid or ripped off.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by DocMick

Fakes are fake. They're not replicas, they're counterfeits. If you're cool w that... if you purposely spend money on an item that falsely asserts to be something it's not, it says something about you.

What that something is.... is hard to define.... but in my world view it's unfavorable. I would cut any business ties with anyone that becomes askew when queried about the watch.

"Hey, nice Tag/Omega/Pam/Roles" I'd say but in my mind, I'm critiquing that AR coating, that dial, the milkiness of the crystal. If I have to wonder about the watch, I will wonder about the person and the likelihood that I'm going to get paid or ripped off.

I'm all but certain what I'm about to write won't appeal to you, but I'm going to write it and hope that you understand I respect your right to hold the views you do, even though I don't share them.

What went through mind upon seeing the blue text so soon after having read the red text, is saying, "Hey, nice [whatever]" when you really don't think it's nice at all is just as much a lie as putting, say, Rolex's name on a watch that Rolex didn't actually make. The only difference in my mind is the fake watchmaker is lying about a thing whereas you are misrepresenting your feelings.

I know that when asked, that watchmaker won't claim that Rolex made the watch, but your having said "nice watch" to another person about a watch you don't think is nice at all tells me you might squarely lie to someone else -- or to yourself if "nice watch" is what you are thinking in your own mind even as you take exception with various attributes of the watch in question -- and do so right to their face. I think we both know what that says.

If you don't like the watch, why not just keep mum. If you honestly believe it to be real and don't have doubts about ti due to the milky crystal or whatever, why not just keep mum and talk about something else? That's certainly what I'd do for I have no need to compliment a watch I don't care for, but I also don't need to tell that person that I know their watch is a fake and everything else I might think about their having bought it. What good would that do either the other person or me? None.

All the best.

[brianeck]

I mean the biggest thing for me is that I wear my watches ALL THE TIME. Shower, hot tub, sauna, whatever. . . Water Resistance and heavy water resistance at that is key. I don't like leather bands for the same reason. I bought a fake Patek Phillipe that I would have totally rocked as a dressier go to. It was automatic and even had a moon calendar complication. What it lacked was the 50m WR property that the real watch had. First day in the shower and that was it! I've trained myself to never take watches off. I'm left handed and I've been doing it so long I'm pretty sure my right wrist is actually thinner then my left wrist haha.

Bottom line for me is I'd rather buy a 200-300 Seiko that won't break when I forget to take it off or get pushed in the pool!

[JuzMe]

Just like driving a fake ///M car

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by brianeck

I mean the biggest thing for me is that I wear my watches ALL THE TIME. Shower, hot tub, sauna, whatever. . . Water Resistance and heavy water resistance at that is key. I don't like leather bands for the same reason. I bought a fake Patek Phillipe that I would have totally rocked as a dressier go to. It was automatic and even had a moon calendar complication. What it lacked was the 50m WR property that the real watch had. First day in the shower and that was it! I've trained myself to never take watches off. I'm left handed and I've been doing it so long I'm pretty sure my right wrist is actually thinner then my left wrist haha.

Bottom line for me is I'd rather buy a 200-300 Seiko that won't break when I forget to take it off or get pushed in the pool!

A few points:

• Water resistance (WR) is largely a function of the pressures per square inch that the watch case -- mostly the crystal -- and the gaskets/seals around the crown/pushers can withstand before giving way.
• Gaskets, no matter the extent of WR, eventually dry out and crack, thus allowing water into the watch. Soap and shampoo that contacts and remains on gaskets will hasten the drying process. I can't say by how many days, months, years, etc. Also, strong collisions -- like dropping the watch, or banging into a door or or other object -- can unseat a gasket and compromise the watch's WR.
  • The lack of any openings into the movement section of the watch, and therefore no gaskets, case is why Pita's Oceana is water resistant to 5000 meters. That's how deep the watch can go before the crystal cracks. The movement is housed in a solid steel container and is moved using magnets that I think are in between the movement housing and the outer case body. (You can check Pita's website for more details on how exactly it works.)
• Water will absolutely destroy a running quartz movement. Pure H2O isn't itself harmful to a mechanical watch's movement, and it shouldn't affect a quartz movement that's not running.
• Water can do major damage to dials. It can cause enamel to bubble, transport oils to the dial and stain them, and more.
• The concerns with water and mechanical watch movements are:
  • As it flushes in and out of the watch, water'll carry the lubricant out of the watch. With no lube, friction is greater and the watch parts wear more readily.
  • It just takes miniscule bits of moisture to initiate oxidation on tiny, thin watch parts, which is why many watch parts are rhodium plated; it's very resistant to oxidation.
  • Water generally has certain impurities in it. If those impurities, particulate matter as well as chemicals, are left on certain parts, they can also cause corrosion, which will also hasten wear/abrasion
  • The short is that if anything gets inside a watch, one needs to go to a watch repair shop right away so that minimally the watch can be dried out, cleaned, and re-lubricated.
• If you wear your watch for extended periods in a a hot tub and sauna, it's extent of water resistance won't be what eventually causes you dismay. The problem is the glue that holds the crystal affixed to the case. Repeated, long exposures to rapidly changing hot and "comparatively" cool temperatures will cause the glue to fail. When it does fail, moisture will enter the watch.
• Whatever WR a watch has will be sufficient for almost all water-related activities one performs at sea level, provided the watch's WR hasn't been compromised by human error or dried out gaskets, glue or seals. Diving, particularly high diving, into a body of watch is the one potential exception. The reason for that is the immediacy of the change in water pressure. The collision with the water's surface can produce pressures greater than the actual pressure at the depth to which the diver descends.
• No extent of water resistance obviates the need to regularly have a watch's water resistance checked and restored as needed. It's simply not the case that watches with 600 meter WR will retain their WR capability longer than watches with 30 meter WR.

And now a question for you: how do you and your watch come by so much heavy water that you need heavy water WR?


All the best.

[brianeck]

Originally Posted by tony20009

A few points:

• Water resistance (WR) is largely a function of the pressures per square inch that the watch case -- mostly the crystal -- and the gaskets/seals around the crown/pushers can withstand before giving way.
• Gaskets, no matter the extent of WR, eventually dry out and crack, thus allowing water into the watch. Soap and shampoo that contacts and remains on gaskets will hasten the drying process. I can't say by how many days, months, years, etc. Also, strong collisions -- like dropping the watch, or banging into a door or or other object -- can unseat a gasket and compromise the watch's WR.
  • The lack of any openings into the movement section of the watch, and therefore no gaskets, case is why Pita's Oceana is water resistant to 5000 meters. That's how deep the watch can go before the crystal cracks. The movement is housed in a solid steel container and is moved using magnets that I think are in between the movement housing and the outer case body. (You can check Pita's website for more details on how exactly it works.)
• Water will absolutely destroy a running quartz movement. Pure H2O isn't itself harmful to a mechanical watch's movement, and it shouldn't affect a quartz movement that's not running.
• Water can do major damage to dials. It can cause enamel to bubble, transport oils to the dial and stain them, and more.
• The concerns with water and mechanical watch movements are:
  • As it flushes in and out of the watch, water'll carry the lubricant out of the watch. With no lube, friction is greater and the watch parts wear more readily.
  • It just takes miniscule bits of moisture to initiate oxidation on tiny, thin watch parts, which is why many watch parts are rhodium plated; it's very resistant to oxidation.
  • Water generally has certain impurities in it. If those impurities, particulate matter as well as chemicals, are left on certain parts, they can also cause corrosion, which will also hasten wear/abrasion
  • The short is that if anything gets inside a watch, one needs to go to a watch repair shop right away so that minimally the watch can be dried out, cleaned, and re-lubricated.
• If you wear your watch for extended periods in a a hot tub and sauna, it's extent of water resistance won't be what eventually causes you dismay. The problem is the glue that holds the crystal affixed to the case. Repeated, long exposures to rapidly changing hot and "comparatively" cool temperatures will cause the glue to fail. When it does fail, moisture will enter the watch.
• Whatever WR a watch has will be sufficient for almost all water-related activities one performs at sea level, provided the watch's WR hasn't been compromised by human error or dried out gaskets, glue or seals. Diving, particularly high diving, into a body of watch is the one potential exception. The reason for that is the immediacy of the change in water pressure. The collision with the water's surface can produce pressures greater than the actual pressure at the depth to which the diver descends.
• No extent of water resistance obviates the need to regularly have a watch's water resistance checked and restored as needed. It's simply not the case that watches with 600 meter WR will retain their WR capability longer than watches with 30 meter WR.

And now a question for you: how do you and your watch come by so much heavy water that you need heavy water WR?


All the best.

I have never had a single watch fail on me by getting water or moisture within the case in over 26 years of use exactly as I've described, and that includes some older cheaper Seikos and same original Baby G stuff when I was younger. Not 1 watch that claimed WR ever failed. . . All have been labled as at least WR 50m. Occasional hottub and sauna use throughout that time. In fact* all but 2 of the watches I've ever owned have been sub $500. I use shampoo and basic body wash and hand soap regularly, and literally only take a watch off to change it or to put my hand or arm in behind drywall etc where the watch could get damaged without me seeing or impede my movement.

We've all read those scare clauses in the manual before, so its nice that you have them memorized and all but keep in mind that mattress tags are full of similar language and the very fact that the product makes the regulatory guideline claim "Water Resistant" means that they'e done extensive testing up to a standardized protocol. The manufacturers have to cover their own asses, however likely the product exceeds the actual claim by at least 25% (Source: 8 years and running in a clinical testing laboratory for Water Resistance, albeit for OTC drug applications).

Also: Saunas are generally going to range up to about 115-120 degrees on the high end, with hot tubs capping out at around 104 degrees. Normal swimming pool water is about 74 degrees. The actual temperature differential is roughly the same with that and the sauna and your homeostasis of 98.6 or so degrees. The hottub is only 6 degrees warmer at the hottest it can safely be. Jump into the ocean anywhere but between the tropics and you're probably talking about a much higher gradient/faster temperature change as the watch hits the water then you could ever accomplish walking into a sauna. Oh, and then there's the Salt or the Chlorine (both much harsher then common dishsoap which has been extensively tested for primary irritation even while drying on the surface of the skin!)!

And on to your last question: experience wise for the last 6 years I've been extensively into diving and have most recently completed a few days around 175 feet drysuit diving on trimix in Northern Ireland at about 36 degrees farenheit. I'm just certifying for my IDC with Padi come January and my sister is a Master Dive Trainer in Grand Cayman. I'm 29 and I've probably logged about 900 dives thus far.

Hopefully that qualifies me for "heavy water resistance" I'll excuse your slightly professorial condescending tone and I'm willing to accept that my experiences are at best anecdotal evidence, though they have been collected in a variety of exciting exaggerated use conditions. That said, live a little and wear your watch whenever you friggin want in whatever kind of water you want to be in. . . I do, and it makes me happy.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by brianeck

...

And on to your last question: experience wise for the last 6 years I've been extensively into diving and have most recently completed a few days around 175 feet drysuit diving on trimix in Northern Ireland at about 36 degrees farenheit. I'm just certifying for my IDC with Padi come January and my sister is a Master Dive Trainer in Grand Cayman. I'm 29 and I've probably logged about 900 dives thus far.

Hopefully that qualifies me for "heavy water resistance" I'll excuse your slightly professorial condescending tone and I'm willing to accept that my experiences are at best anecdotal evidence, though they have been collected in a variety of exciting exaggerated use conditions. That said, live a little and wear your watch whenever you friggin want in whatever kind of water you want to be in. . . I do, and it makes me happy.

Okay, well resistance to water pressure at 175 feet below the surface is definitely different from needed resistance to the heavy isotopes of water, heavy water resistance, which is what you wrote. Plus, all the examples you provided were things that one does at or above sea level -- "shower, hot tub, sauna, whatever"-- and since you didn't even so much as hint at actually diving to depths below 50 feet or so, which I estimate is about as deep as most folks will swim routinely in the natural bodies of water, I had no idea your comment pertained to actually diving.

TY for the clarification. I can read what folks write, but I cannot read their minds.

And, yes, diving to depths of 175 feet does require that the watch one wears when doing so have a WR rating of minimally 100 meters to ensure the water pressure won't adversely affect the watch. The reason I cited the things that impair a watch's WR abilities is that those things are in play no differently for a watch having 100 meters worth of WR than they are for one having, say, 300 meters or more of WR. For example, the drying out and cracking of gaskets and seals will happen at the same rate regardless of the WR rating the watch has.

FWIW, I've never had water/moisture enter any of my watches either, aside from when the glue that secured the crystal gave way on my Movado. It's not a diver; it's merely a water resistant watch.

That experience led me to inquire of several other watch companies whether they too use glue to secure the crystal. Every one of them did -- although several of them told me they use "this or that" special glue that will hold up better than "garden variety" glue. I presume most watch companies still use glue.

All the best and dive safely.

[brianeck]

Originally Posted by tony20009

Okay, well resistance to water pressure at 175 feet below the surface is definitely different from needed resistance to the heavy isotopes of water, heavy water resistance, which is what you wrote. Plus, all the examples you provided were things that one does at or above sea level -- "shower, hot tub, sauna, whatever"-- and since you didn't even so much as hint at actually diving to depths below 50 feet or so, which I estimate is about as deep as most folks will swim routinely in the natural bodies of water, I had no idea your comment pertained to actually diving.

TY for the clarification. I can read what folks write, but I cannot read their minds.

And, yes, diving to depths of 175 feet does require that the watch one wears when doing so have a WR rating of minimally 100 meters to ensure the water pressure won't adversely affect the watch. The reason I cited the things that impair a watch's WR abilities is that those things are in play no differently for a watch having 100 meters worth of WR than they are for one having, say, 300 meters or more of WR. For example, the drying out and cracking of gaskets and seals will happen at the same rate regardless of the WR rating the watch has.

FWIW, I've never had water/moisture enter any of my watches either, aside from when the glue that secured the crystal gave way on my Movado. It's not a diver; it's merely a water resistant watch.

That experience led me to inquire of several other watch companies whether they too use glue to secure the crystal. Every one of them did -- although several of them told me they use "this or that" special glue that will hold up better than "garden variety" glue. I presume most watch companies still use glue.

All the best and dive safely.

Haha thanks for the kind words and detailed reply back. You're totally right about the activities I mentioned being at sea level of course, but I also live by the assumption that 200m water resistant means better seals, gaskets, and glue then a 10m water resistant watch. There is quite a lot of pressure under 600+ feet of water! That is "heavy water"

That is, albeit in my opinion, a much more hostile environment for the watch than a hot tub at sea level.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by brianeck

Haha thanks for the kind words and detailed reply back. You're totally right about the activities I mentioned being at sea level of course, but I also live by the assumption that 200m water resistant means better seals, gaskets, and glue then a 10m water resistant watch. There is quite a lot of pressure under 600+ feet of water! That is "heavy water"

That is, albeit in my opinion, a much more hostile environment for the watch than a hot tub at sea level.

Oh, yes, even just 100 feet down in the ocean is more hostile. In all the hot tubs I've been in, nothing hostile than a floating chessboard or dead insect has been in them. LOL

By comparison, I've seen sharks large enough to be dangerous in as little as just 30 feet of water. And when I saw them, I got my land-oving ass the hell on up out of the water!

I don't today know what kind of shark it was, and I am no more curious about that now than I was then. It moved far faster than I ever could in the water, and it was at least as big as I am. Those two facts alone were all I needed to know. LOL

It could well have been a docile shark, and I may have missed out on an opportunity to get close to nature. I went to the bar, had a cocktail, went back to house and "got some tail," and that's was all the nature I needed.

All the best.

[mike the snake]

There might be some hot tub situations that no watch, fake or not, can withstand the pressures of.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ugly...ub%3B420%3B286

[DocMick]

Originally Posted by tony20009

I'm all but certain what I'm about to write won't appeal to you, but I'm going to write it and hope that you understand I respect your right to hold the views you do, even though I don't share them.

What went through mind upon seeing the blue text so soon after having read the red text, is saying, "Hey, nice [whatever]" when you really don't think it's nice at all is just as much a lie as putting, say, Rolex's name on a watch that Rolex didn't actually make. The only difference in my mind is the fake watchmaker is lying about a thing whereas you are misrepresenting your feelings.

I know that when asked, that watchmaker won't claim that Rolex made the watch, but your having said "nice watch" to another person about a watch you don't think is nice at all tells me you might squarely lie to someone else -- or to yourself if "nice watch" is what you are thinking in your own mind even as you take exception with various attributes of the watch in question -- and do so right to their face. I think we both know what that says.

If you don't like the watch, why not just keep mum. If you honestly believe it to be real and don't have doubts about ti due to the milky crystal or whatever, why not just keep mum and talk about something else? That's certainly what I'd do for I have no need to compliment a watch I don't care for, but I also don't need to tell that person that I know their watch is a fake and everything else I might think about their having bought it. What good would that do either the other person or me? None.

All the best.

You called me a liar as a retort to how I see fakes and their wearers. That statement is so ironic, it wears skinny jeans and a beard. Perhaps I should have expanded my comment to convey the exact thought, so as to be understood by people who write with many words and paragraphs and things.

If I met someone and spotted a Swiss watch, my first though would be to assume it's a gen and throw out the "nice Tag" or whatever but after we shook hands, I'd get a closer glance at said watch. If I have to now, after some reflection on the qualities of the watch... heretofore assumed to be genuine Swiss watch, reconsider said genuineness, it would cause me to cast doubtful thoughts on the character of the person I just met. And perhaps reconsider doing any transactions that involve any sums of money, property, commitment, or other obligations.

Because F that fake ass and his fakery. Naw mean?

[MBM6F]

Tony, you seem to be a classy fellow. I dig it. I'd like to run into you at a meet next time I'm in DC.

[brianeck]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

There might be some hot tub situations that no watch, fake or not, can withstand the pressures of.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ugly...ub%3B420%3B286

Oh my! Tony, looks like there are situations when the pressure at sea level may be greater then 20 atmospheres judging by the first picture that comes up here! I hope none of those people are wearing a watch hahahaha. . . Individual gravity could even become an issue in a situation like that!

And Tony as to your run in with the shark there is no shame in that of course.

Below are some particularly close encounters that I have had. . . The last one is a juvenile whale shark. From what I gather they are technically harmless, but the are also supposed to "steer clear of divers." That was probably the scariest moment of my entire life, the thing actually swam right at me and kissed me! Estimated at around 40 feet long