[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by E86Z4MC

I'm no Merc fan. Since spa, Rb18 was as dominant as w13 was post Brazil last year. Arguably because of td39, but true nonetheless. That's a significantly longer stretch of the season than Brazil on from last year. Ferrari certainly neck and neck in qualifying, but not race pace in that time frame.

It'd be nice to see max have to drive directly against someone as challenging as an alonso or rosberg on the same team.

Not sure I would consider HAM's teammates during his championship run as prime F1 talent... or a step up from RIC or PER in any way. GAS & ALB yes.

Also the 7 years of complete dominance doesn't really compare to less than half a season of one car/driver being the best in the field. And during Mercs run they would routinely crush qualy too - not the case here. There are other cars with the pace in the field - but no one has been able to achieve what VER has done during the race as the year progressed.

Originally Posted by Jbrown7403

Really fun race yesterday! 20 degrees cooler and it would have been a perfect day!

When Alonso went nose up, I thought of Webber in 1999. I shudder to think how bad it could have been if he had flipped and landed in the infield.

At least we had a breeze! Ugh that would have been miserable.

[G30M]

can't drive around after a crash if you have enemies (haas) even if you have friends (stewards)

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/14999...e-shocked.html

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by EdM5

Philippe, hij is al een legende

Maar dat weet jij natuurlijk al lang.

Beste Ed ,
Ik wist het al van in 2012 en 2013 . En dat is precies 10 jaar geleden ..
En van toen ik MAX hier in Belgie (Genk) zag rijden op de kartbaan .
Het leek wel bovennatuurlijk wat MAX daar liet zien , en ik dacht dit kan niet anders dan een zeer grote worden in F1 ..
Hij reed daar rondjes in de gietende regen die sneller waren dan van de andere rijders op een droge baan .
Toen ik MAX zag in Brazilië 2016 in de regen , kon het natuurlijk niet anders dat ik terug moest denken van wat ik in 2012 gezien had .

En zoals je kan zien , zelfs M.Schumacher wist het ook al ....
Niki Lauda zei : MAX is het talent van de eeuw !

[E86Z4MC]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Not sure I would consider HAM's teammates during his championship run as prime F1 talent... or a step up from RIC or PER in any way. GAS & ALB yes.

Also the 7 years of complete dominance doesn't really compare to less than half a season of one car/driver being the best in the field. And during Mercs run they would routinely crush qualy too - not the case here. There are other cars with the pace in the field - but no one has been able to achieve what VER has done during the race as the year progressed.




At least we had a breeze! Ugh that would have been miserable.

As a whole, Lewis has raced against tougher and more accomplished teammates than Max has. This isn't debatable. Red Bull has intentionally made sure that's not the case with Max. I'd say that it's smart to ensure it doesn't get to that level of competition between teammates. F1 is first and foremost a team sport.

But it also means that it's difficult to compare. Would Max have won in the w11, swapping places with Lewis? Likely, yes. With Lewis as his teammate? Noone knows. Same scenarios in the W12? What about against Alonso in his rookie season? Or even at the same age Lewis was in his rookie season? Again, no one knows. Pure speculation. I think there's plenty of data points to say that early in Max's career, he wasn't at that level, though talented. But to his credit, he has grown and matured.

We've had the benefit of seeing Lewis race against champions. Time will tell if any of Max"s teammates will be in the same boat, but I'd personally be surprised if any of who he's raced alongside win a championship (let alone multiple).

[G30M]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Wow just read what they did to Alonso, what a disgrace!!

they didn't even give a specific reason

[Killed by Death]

[Humdizzle]

Well I just got back from COTA. it was cool to see F1 cars in person. entry was easy and a short walk. we got in at turn 11. saw the warm up laps and a few opening laps. then walked around. kind of boring just watching the same corner over and over. also, even though they are 6 cylinders they still sound pretty cool. nothing musical but they do sound 'angry'.

we did general admission because we thought we'd walk around and see all the corners. problem is the barriers are high and the cars are low. so you can't really see much. there is a walkway that goes over the track. but they throw tarp over alot of it to block your view. maybe they just dont want people standing there? maybe its so people dont trip walking up stairs and looking at the race ? cell phone coverage was spotty as well. hard to follow the race.

try not to drink to much. there are no real bathrooms just portapotties which people dont exactly keep clean

watching the race you don't really get a sense how fast the cars are. especially on the slow corners where downforce is minimal and its all mechanical grip. but they also make it look easy being pros... but after the race me and the gf walked some of the track and it sort of puts into perspective the speed

leaving was an absolute nightmare. took us like 90 min just to get out the lot. and probably 2 hours to get into flowing traffic and get food. wouldn't want to repeat that again.

so overall it was a bucket list achieved. i got to see max driving an f1 car in real life. but probably wouldn't go to another event.

[G30M]

does ricciardo have foot problem

[NYG]

Originally Posted by E86Z4MC

As a whole, Lewis has raced against tougher and more accomplished teammates than Max has. This isn't debatable. Red Bull has intentionally made sure that's not the case with Max. I'd say that it's smart to ensure it doesn't get to that level of competition between teammates. F1 is first and foremost a team sport.

This is false. In general, I give a slight edge to Lewis but it's not as huge as you're making it seem.

2007 - Alonso - The most elite teammate he has ever had. Tied on points, great competition but Alonso should have been ahead. Raikkonen is champion.

2008 to 2009 - Heikki - Lmao, Albon and Gasly are better than this guy.

2010 to 2012 - Button - Perez and Ricciardo are easily superior. I'd say Albon in a good car would beat Button. One of the least worthy F1 champions ever thanks to Brawn

2013 to 2016 - Nico - Equal to Ricciardo in his prime at Red Bull and Lewis lost to him one year. Danny Ric may suck now, but you have to understand that he defeated 4x world champion Vettel off his championships. Championships that he won OVER Lewis.

2017 to 2021 - Bottas - Perez is superior to Bottas in every way.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

[dutchm2]

Red Bull’s win in Austin brings Mercedes’ 8️⃣ year reign to an end!

[dutchm2]

Vettel led 2️⃣ laps at the United States GP, bringing his total to 3501 👏

[dutchm2]

Red Bull Racing clinched the Constructors’ Championship whilst Magnussen scored Haas’ first points since Austria! 🇺🇸🇦🇹

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by NYG

This is false. In general, I give a slight edge to Lewis but it's not as huge as you're making it seem.

2007 - Alonso - The most elite teammate he has ever had. Tied on points, great competition but Alonso should have been ahead. Raikkonen is champion.

2008 to 2009 - Heikki - Lmao, Albon and Gasly are better than this guy.

2010 to 2012 - Button - Perez and Ricciardo are easily superior. I'd say Albon in a good car would beat Button. One of the least worthy F1 champions ever thanks to Brawn

2013 to 2016 - Nico - Equal to Ricciardo in his prime at Red Bull and Lewis lost to him one year. Danny Ric may suck now, but you have to understand that he defeated 4x world champion Vettel off his championships. Championships that he won OVER Lewis.

2017 to 2021 - Bottas - Perez is superior to Bottas in every way.

Totally agree and you saved me from having to respond for the most part.

Bottas (as much as I did like him) was not that good. Perez is much better. Riciardo, also much better back in the day. Bottas is Gasly level, maybe slightly better...maybe. Rosberg was decent, but obviously didnt have much in him to continue...and again would put him maybe as Riciardo level.
Current standings, Perez is next level compared to "t-bone" Rus who has been doing more bumper cars than actual quality racing. The guy is pressing and has been for a long time and it shows.

I did find it quite interesting when Max passed Ham how he was so pointed to get to his position and Ham never stood a chance. Max hunted him down so well...and was more impressive given he didnt have the ability to work the tire temps up and really hurt them initially.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by E86Z4MC

As a whole, Lewis has raced against tougher and more accomplished teammates than Max has. This isn't debatable. Red Bull has intentionally made sure that's not the case with Max. I'd say that it's smart to ensure it doesn't get to that level of competition between teammates. F1 is first and foremost a team sport.

First of all, Hamilton is 37, so he's 12 years Verstappen's senior. Verstappen will be 37 in 2034. Let's compare their respective F1 achievements again in, say, a decade or so.

IMHO if Verstappen stays in good health, drives a competitive car and if F1 remains to exist in a somewhat similar format, he is capable of breaking most of Hamilton's records. That's no wishful thinking - that's just making a prognosis based on what he has shown us so far. And the more races he drives, the more experienced he gets, ergo the harder to get beaten. Until a point in time when age becomes to take its physical toll (we all know that, also physically, a 25-year old body has an advantage over a 37-year old body pushed to its limits under very demanding conditions - at a later age, you're physically no longer 'the one you used to be'; the 'younger guns' got an advantage over you).

Secondly, it's a matter of perspective. Being a team mate of Verstappen must be on the one hand a gratifying experience because of the multiple successes resulting from outstanding drives and results (a prosperous situation also contributing in getting financial bonuses, attract sponsoring, added visibility, etc.). But on the other hand it must also be quite a humbling (and at some occasions maybe even intimidating) experience for a team mate, because Verstappen is driving on another level, an unstoppable force in F1, a driving machine "hors catégorie", usually always determined to deliver. We have seen Verstappen winning races with his team mate supporting him, but we have also seen Verstappen fighting at the front of the pack all by himself, with his team mate not being of any real help for him during those times.

Hamilton is a truly excellent driver, or at least used to be (if Hamilton would be 25 again, the races could have been even spicier with Verstappen, Leclerc and Russell all sharing as good as the same age). But on quite a number of occasions, Hamilton's team mate has been indisputably instrumental for his race victories and related WDC points. If you need team orders a couple of times (either not publicly during briefings prior to the race, or expressly via coded or even blunt team radio messages during the race) to stop your team mate from achieving a better result than you, your race result, related WDC points and race statistics for the history books are rather 'flattering' than truly 'well-deserved' compared to the situation without a team mate being ordered to "invert positions" or "abort a fastest lap attempt".

In the F1 universe of these early 20s, Verstappen is nec plus ultra, just like Senna used to be in his hay days. Hamilton is no match for him anymore. Only a non-competitive car or adverse circumstances impacting his fitness to drive an F1 car or a new kid on the block like him in a competitive car, can stop Verstappen's dominance for the years to come.

We will never know, but IMHO things got very personal between Verstappen and Hamilton during the final stages of the Austin F1 race, more particularly once Hamilton got P1 and was racing in free air, with realistic hopes to get his first race win of the year. The situation looked indeed very promising for Hamilton, especially after the 11.1s (instead of the usual 2.5s) pit stop for Verstappen who - to add insult to injury - even got pipped by Leclerc in the pit lane. It must have boosted Hamilton's morale to grab the offered opportunity and to use all his driving skills and extensive experience to push his car to the limit to ensure winning the Austin race. Cameras showed footage of Hamilton's physio Angela Cullen inside the Mercedes-AMG garage, nervously watching Hamilton leading the race. The "at last a first win this year for Lewis and our team is really at arm's length now" atmosphere was palpable.

But as both Hamilton and Verstappen showed the F1 world already a couple of times: a race ain't over till it's over. Verstappen first fumed in the spur of the moment about the pit stop gone wrong, uttering sarcastically "Beautiful !". But subsequently he collected himself, put his knife between his teeth and started to do what was deemed virtually impossible by most who were watching the race: stop his personal Nemesis in his tracks before reaching the chequered flag. It was 'Verstappen doing Verstappen things' or 'Hamilton getting Verstappened' all over again. If you watched the race, you simply knew that Verstappen would be unleashed, taking risks to get by, and pass by. We will never know, but IMHO if Leclerc instead of Hamilton would have been leading the race after Verstappen's very slow pit stop, Verstappen could have concluded that all hope for the race win had flown, look after his engine and settle for P2 (although 'quitting' is not really part of his dictionary, unlike 'resilience'). Looks to me like, ever since the 51G crash and celebrations at Silverstone 2021, Verstappen still considers to have some unfinished business with Hamilton and, hence, is determined to also use all his driving skills to torment Hamilton to end the 2022 season with 0 victories, as part of coming to terms: "win as much races as you can and Hamilton risks to end the season empty-handed". I repeat, only Verstappen and his inner circle know what he really thinks about Hamilton, but the determination to hunt down Hamilton from a virtually lost position in that stage of the Austin race, was remarkable and intriguing. Of course, publicly Verstappen is perfectly entitled to say "I always try to win a race - I never give up". Actually, he's paid millions to win races.

Russian GP 2018 "So you need to let Lewis by into Turn 13 this lap."

Austrian GP 2021: "So, Lewis has damage. Do not race it for now. We will review.
OK Valtteri, we will invert the cars into Turn 1, correction Turn 3."

Silverstone GP 2021: "And team order: do not fight with Lewis.
OK Valtteri, we invert the cars into Turn 15 in this lap."

Zandvoort GP 2021: "Valteri, it's James. Please abort the fastest lap attempt before the end of the lap."

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Artemis

First of all, Hamilton is 37, so he's 12 years Verstappen's senior. Verstappen will be 37 in 2034. Let's compare their respective F1 achievements again in, say, a decade or so.

IMHO if Verstappen stays in good health, drives a competitive car and if F1 remains to exist in a somewhat similar format, he is capable of breaking most of Hamilton's records. That's no wishful thinking - that's just making a prognosis based on what he has shown us so far. And the more races he drives, the more experienced he gets, ergo the harder to get beaten. Until a point in time when age becomes to take its physical toll (we all know that, also physically, a 25-year old body has an advantage over a 37-year old body pushed to its limits under very demanding conditions - at a later age, you're physically no longer 'the one you used to be'; the 'younger guns' got an advantage over you).

Secondly, it's a matter of perspective. Being a team mate of Verstappen must be on the one hand a gratifying experience because of the multiple successes resulting from outstanding drives and results (a prosperous situation also contributing in getting financial bonuses, attract sponsoring, added visibility, etc.). But on the other hand it must also be quite a humbling (and at some occasions maybe even intimidating) experience for a team mate, because Verstappen is driving on another level, an unstoppable force in F1, a driving machine "hors catégorie", usually always determined to deliver. We have seen Verstappen winning races with his team mate supporting him, but we have also seen Verstappen fighting at the front of the pack all by himself, with his team mate not being of any real help for him during those times.

Hamilton is a truly excellent driver, or at least used to be (if Hamilton would be 25 again, the races could have been even spicier with Verstappen, Leclerc and Russell all sharing as good as the same age). But on quite a number of occasions, Hamilton's team mate has been indisputably instrumental for his race victories and related WDC points. If you need team orders a couple of times (either not publicly during briefings prior to the race, or expressly via coded or even blunt team radio messages during the race) to stop your team mate from achieving a better result than you, your race result, related WDC points and race statistics for the history books are rather 'flattering' than truly 'well-deserved' compared to the situation without a team mate being ordered to "invert positions" or "abort a fastest lap attempt".

In the F1 universe of these early 20s, Verstappen is nec plus ultra, just like Senna used to be in his hay days. Hamilton is no match for him anymore. Only a non-competitive car or adverse circumstances impacting his fitness to drive an F1 car or a new kid on the block like him in a competitive car, can stop Verstappen's dominance for the years to come.

We will never know, but IMHO things got very personal between Verstappen and Hamilton during the final stages of the Austin F1 race, more particularly once Hamilton got P1 and was racing in free air, with realistic hopes to get his first race win of the year. The situation looked indeed very promising for Hamilton, especially after the 11.1s (instead of the usual 2.5s) pit stop for Verstappen who - to add insult to injury - even got pipped by Leclerc in the pit lane. It must have boosted Hamilton's morale to grab the offered opportunity and to use all his driving skills and extensive experience to push his car to the limit to ensure winning the Austin race. Cameras showed footage of Hamilton's physio Angela Cullen inside the Mercedes-AMG garage, nervously watching Hamilton leading the race. The "at last a first win this year for Lewis and our team is really at arm's length now" atmosphere was palpable.

But as both Hamilton and Verstappen showed the F1 world already a couple of times: a race ain't over till it's over. Verstappen first fumed in the spur of the moment about the pit stop gone wrong, uttering sarcastically "Beautiful !". But subsequently he collected himself, put his knife between his teeth and started to do what was deemed virtually impossible by most who were watching the race: stop his personal Nemesis in his tracks before reaching the chequered flag. It was 'Verstappen doing Verstappen things' or 'Hamilton getting Verstappened' all over again. If you watched the race, you simply knew that Verstappen would be unleashed, taking risks to get by, and pass by. We will never know, but IMHO if Leclerc instead of Hamilton would have been leading the race after Verstappen's very slow pit stop, Verstappen could have concluded that all hope for the race win had flown, look after his engine and settle for P2 (although 'quitting' is not really part of his dictionary, unlike 'resilience'). Looks to me like, ever since the 51G crash and celebrations at Silverstone 2021, Verstappen still considers to have some unfinished business with Hamilton and, hence, is determined to also use all his driving skills to torment Hamilton to end the 2022 season with 0 victories, as part of coming to terms: "win as much races as you can and Hamilton risks to end the season empty-handed". I repeat, only Verstappen and his inner circle know what he really thinks about Hamilton, but the determination to hunt down Hamilton from a virtually lost position in that stage of the Austin race, was remarkable and intriguing. Of course, publicly Verstappen is perfectly entitled to say "I always try to win a race - I never give up". Actually, he's paid millions to win races.

It's funny when you're told "hammer time" but upon tying to hit the nail, the nail is so strong the hammer breaks.

I have said it many times. Ver is a better raw/pure talent than Ham ever was, and his racing level at the moment, in a car that is not leagues ahead, is better than Ham ever accomplished as seen by his wins and more importantly the win %. The guy in his hay-day was very good driver with a car so good he didnt want a guy like Ver driving the same one. That says ALL you need to know.

[M3WC]

Max gives me young Alonso at Minardi vibes. Who then went to Renault and took down the mighty Ferrari/Schumi. Alonso in the 05/06 Renault was something. All I remember was his driving style and how aggressive he was at changes of direction.

If Red Bull can dominate the new ground effect era, like Merc did the new hybrid era. Max has a lot of championships ahead.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by EdM5

Alonso's Austin 2022 race is already legendary. Never seen this before. The 30s. penalty he got today is a total disgrace. Fans and haters agree: this man has balls of steel. After crashing heavily in Melbourne back in 2016 he said: my mum watches TV so I wanted to get out quickly and say I'm okay.

Holy sh_t !! That was a helluva bad wreck Fernando Alonso "experienced" back in 2016 at Melbourne. Absolutely amazing he 'walked' away. It's the first time seeing film of that wreck for me. Thanks for posting.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

Holy sh_t !! That was a helluva bad wreck Fernando Alonso "experienced" back in 2016 at Melbourne. Absolutely amazing he 'walked' away. It's the first time seeing film of that wreck for me. Thanks for posting.

A weird accident I recalled was Sebastien Buemi (Toro Rosso) experiencing both front wheels popping off "Bombs Away!" style - 2010 China Grand Prix.

[DrFerry]

Intriguing analysis of Fernando Alonso's '22 US GP wreck as well as his heroic charge from last place (due to the crash) all the way back up to finish 7th (prior to FIA penalties for his dangling mirror dropped him to 15th). Awesome and memorable drive by Fernando. B@llz of steel to have a 180mph airborne crash and still finishing 7th.
.

[G30M]

budget cap penalty agreed but secret
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/14941...p-penalty.html

[Jbrown7403]

Originally Posted by Artemis

A weird accident I recalled was Sebastien Buemi (Toro Rosso) experiencing both front wheels popping off "Bombs Away!" style - 2010 China Grand Prix.

I get a good chuckle every time I see that Buemi wheel incident! Certainly one of the oddest F1 accidents ever. I think that led to the improved double wheel tethers.