[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

I was "training" for Santa2theSea which was this morning so haven't done a leg day in months. Still try to get in 4 lifts a week

Was that a marathon/10k/5k?

[UncleWede]

CHP Officer didn't show for my wife's trial last rainy Wednesday. Officer at work told me it wasn't a summons for the officer because only an infraction. Does command staff not get a report on officers not showing?

Yes I should quit looking in the gift horses mouth

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

CHP Officer didn't show for my wife's trial last rainy Wednesday. Officer at work told me it wasn't a summons for the officer because only an infraction. Does command staff not get a report on officers not showing?

Yes I should quit looking in the gift horses mouth

Stop looking the gift horse in the mouth. Lol!

When there's a summons for misdemeanor/felony charges, the notification is noted so command staff can account for the officer's whereabouts and adjustments can be made to the schedule if necessary. Nowadays the court summons are electronic, and the officer acknowledges receipt directly from the email. The DA will call the watch commander, etc. if the officer doesn't acknowledge the email.

For a contested infraction, it really isn't a subpoena. It's just a notification the the citation is being contested.

[TrevorM3]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

CHP Officer didn't show for my wife's trial last rainy Wednesday. Officer at work told me it wasn't a summons for the officer because only an infraction. Does command staff not get a report on officers not showing?

Yes I should quit looking in the gift horses mouth

does infraction get thrown out since he doesn't show?


i got a ticket and decided to contest, off N/S, thrown out.

[UncleWede]

Originally Posted by TrevorM3

does infraction get thrown out since he doesn't show?


i got a ticket and decided to contest, off N/S, thrown out.

Wife's was dismissed with a certain amount of disgust by a judge who wasn't even supposed to be there that day. She was throwing them at the poor court official when about 50% of officers didn't show

[Rmtt]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

On a good day, around 450 lbs. for a rep or two; deadlift at 500 lbs. for three reps. Not too bad for my 5'10, 190 lb. frame. Are you still lifting these days?

Nice!!

[upstatedoc]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

I dropped a donation on the UPS driver's GoFundMe page, to help out his wife and 1-year old child. That driver never signed up for the horror he had to go through, so I'm happy to help out. I was a Teamster once upon a time, after all.

I considered doing this. hope this doesn't sound cold. the pot is almost up to 70k. I imagine the family is going to get a settlement from ups. I quelled my guilt by dropping a $20 in the salvation army bucket after grocery shopping. plan to take the boys to do the same thing

[scootr]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I'm fully expecting some shootout and chase policy questions considering the Miami incident.

There should be a lot of criticism for the very public shooting and subsequent killing of 2 innocent people. If there was ever a time and place not to engage in a gunfight this was one such place. Lucky only 2 innocent people died considering all of the people trapped in their cars in the line of fire.

It did not sound to me like either the suspects or the truck was an immediate life/death threat to the hostage or any one in the traffic at the time the officers engaged the known armed suspects causing a shoot out in a most public place.

I think the officers involved got it wrong this time. I think all their training would have said don't shoot in this situation.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by scootr

There should be a lot of criticism for the very public shooting and subsequent killing of 2 innocent people. If there was ever a time and place not to engage in a gunfight this was one such place. Lucky only 2 innocent people died considering all of the people trapped in their cars in the line of fire.

It did not sound to me like either the suspects or the truck was an immediate life/death threat to the hostage or any one in the traffic at the time the officers engaged the known armed suspects causing a shoot out in a most public place.

I think the officers involved got it wrong this time. I think all their training would have said don't shoot in this situation.

This was a situation where two armed perpetrators had already begun shooting at police prior to the genesis of the pursuit. Those same men also showed a willingness to add kidnapping to the list of actions they were willing to take over a jewelry heist. The kidnapping, decision to shoot at police [inconsiderate of the general public] and the decision to commit a number of dangerous traffic violations in order to effect a pursuit deemed this situation emergent. The fact that you don't see that as a threat to public safety demonstrates how aloof you truly are.

There is never a perfect time to have a shootout. There always exists the potential for an innocent person to be inadvertently harmed while trying to neutralize public threats. Criminals rely on this; the public is their shield. When you have a situation like what happened in Miami, people need to realize that there was no other option but to engage.

How do YOU know what things sounded like? Were you listening to the dispatch channel? No! Were you listening to their local tactical/L-TAC channel? No! Are you aware of what information was or was not relayed to police? No! Kidnappings rarely end well for the kidnapped. For all police knew at the time, the kidnapped individual might've already been dead, but there were dozens of innocent civilians that could've been used as leverage by the perpetrators. What if police decided not to engage, but the armed perpetrators started shooting rounds into the cars surrounding the UPS truck, killing the innocent?!? You'd then be saying, "The police should've engaged!" It is a zero sum game!

Police usually get it wrong in the eyes of the public. You want us to do the dirty job while you turn a blind eye to what it takes to actually perform the job you've commissioned us to do. Another zero sum game!


So what you're telling me is that you think it was prudent for officers to take fire, but not return fire?!?! That's your game plan!?!? Do you not punch back when somebody is punching you too? Thank God you're not one of us. I would hate to have a partner who lacked assertiveness, was indecisive and was scared to act/make hard decisions. If I'm going to die out here, I sure as hell wouldn't want it to be because I had a crap ass partner.

[scootr]

I expected no less. You are saying this collateral damage is acceptable but, it is not. You are saying there was no other possible scenario where innocent people would not be killed in the apprehension of these suspects?
Step back and take a slow breath.
I simply wanted to voice a different opinion. The suspects were not shooting innocent people while driving down the street. No lives were in immediate danger of termination had the suspects not been confronted where and when they were.
The confrontation at that place and time is what I am questioning. The confrontation forced the gunfight not the job you all do.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by scootr

I expected no less. You are saying this collateral damage is acceptable but, it is not. You are saying there was no other possible scenario where innocent people would not be killed in the apprehension of these suspects?
Step back and take a slow breath.
I simply wanted to voice a different opinion. The suspects were not shooting innocent people while driving down the street. No lives were in immediate danger of termination had the suspects not been confronted where and when they were.
The confrontation at that place and time is what I am questioning. The confrontation forced the gunfight not the job you all do.

I'm breathing just fine. The real world isn't a movie, and the sooner that you accept reality, the sooner you'll gain understanding. There are an infinite number of "scenarios" where innocent lives aren't endangered, or aren't endangered to the degree of the Miami shooting. In fact, such things are avoided/curtailed nearly every shift in some way, shape or form. This one, however, was unavoidable, and the standoff took place where the chase terminated simply due to traffic congestion. The situation set the stage; police merely responded.

P.S. I'll reiterate.....the gunfight began before the chase ensued. The initial gunfight and the kidnapping were two essential components that made apprehension emergent. What part of that very simple concept are you failing to comprehend?!?! The suspects kidnapped an innocent person at gunpoint, so while they may not have been shooting at innocent people while driving down the street in a stolen UPS box truck, they had at least ONE innocent person and were holding him against his will. ONE is enough, and therein lay the potential to have more casualties. I'm really trying to dumb this down so even a layman can understand.


Let's play the "What would you have done in the same situation?" game. You are a Miami officer, and the situation is laid out in front of you and you are tasked to respond. Armed perpetrators have robbed a jewelry store, fired rounds at officers, stolen a UPS box truck and kidnapped the driver (......which they didn't have to do; they could've left him alone, but their gross disregard was made apparent by that decision). Those same perpetrators have just led you and your partners on a 20+ mile pursuit endangering lives simply by the actions they've chosen to take. The chase terminates due to traffic congestion (..another "scenario" where innocent lives wouldn't have been put at further risk if they had just given up), and the standoff ensues. They are shooting at you and your partners and you have no idea what their weapon surplus looks like. There are innocent people around and it's not feasible nor safe to mobilize them. Choosing to do nothing isn't an option (obviously!!!), so you have to do something. What would you do? Let's hear/read your critically thought "analysis" on how to end this situation when you have two perpetrators who have no intention of submitting to authorities and are shooting at you, and there's no feasible/safe way to mobilize surrounding citizens (...and there are even more who had the opportunity and present ability to leave the scene, but instead chose to stick around and videotape amid exchanges in gunfire; absolute dummies).

[scootr]

I don't have the training to answer your question.
Search and you will quickly find those that do have the training questioning the wisdom of what was done.
The Innocent UPS driver held against his will the police were protecting and another innocent man were killed in the gun battle that ensued when police decided to force a gun battle in a crowded intersection.

13 officers who had no clear line of fire opened fire on the UPS truck. No police officers were harmed

I'm just asking if in a better scenario could the UPS not have been disabled given the pursuit was already 20 miles long or something other than what happened.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by scootr

I don't have the training to answer your question.
Search and you will quickly find those that do have the training questioning the wisdom of what was done.
The Innocent UPS driver held against his will the police were protecting and another innocent man were killed in the gun battle that ensued when police decided to force a gun battle in a crowded intersection.

13 officers who had no clear line of fire opened fire on the UPS truck. No police officers were harmed

I'm just asking if in a better scenario could the UPS not have been disabled given the pursuit was already 20 miles long or something other than what happened.

I know you don't have the training nor expertise. I'm asking you to critically think through the situation and provide an answer since you have taken the liberty to be critical from the comfort of your living room couch, work office, etc.

Again, police didn't force a gun battle. Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the perpetrators fired at police PRIOR to the pursuit? THEY started this exchange of gunfire.

How would/could the dual axle UPS box truck have been disabled? Remotely? No! PIT maneuver? No! We've already covered why that would've been ineffective (...but you would've known that had you read through the thread and/or had the experience to make judgments).


Lastly, law enforcement agencies don't always agree with each other's actions, and cops are human after all, so I fully expect some others in the field to question Miami's law enforcement approach. I can tell you this, while cops quarterback cops, not a single one of us who weren't involved would've wanted to be in that situation. It was a lose/lose proposition.

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I know you don't have the training nor expertise. I'm asking you to critically think through the situation and provide an answer since you have taken the liberty to be critical from the comfort of your living room couch, work office, etc.

I can't even imagine the frustration and insult of having to hear people, most of whom are ignorant, armchair-quarterbacking the decisions you have to make in a few milliseconds out on the street, in shitty situations. Thank you for what you do. I couldn't do it, for any wage, for even a day.

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I know you don't have the training nor expertise. I'm asking you to critically think through the situation and provide an answer since you have taken the liberty to be critical from the comfort of your living room couch, work office, etc.

Again, police didn't force a gun battle. Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the perpetrators fired at police PRIOR to the pursuit? THEY started this exchange of gunfire.

How would/could the dual axle UPS box truck have been disabled? Remotely? No! PIT maneuver? No! We've already covered why that would've been ineffective (...but you would've known that had you read through the thread and/or had the experience to make judgments).


Lastly, law enforcement agencies don't always agree with each other's actions, and cops are human after all, so I fully expect some others in the field to question Miami's law enforcement approach. I can tell you this, while cops quarterback cops, not a single one of us who weren't involved would've wanted to be in that situation. It was a lose/lose proposition.

Gee, why didn't anyone else think of disabling the truck? I always love how folks will point out things that are obvious as though people who actually have the training and resources (or don't have the resources) didn't consider the obvious. Who could've predicted things in pursuits are unpredictable, well the police for one.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

I can't even imagine the frustration and insult of having to hear people, most of whom are ignorant, armchair-quarterbacking the decisions you have to make in a few milliseconds out on the street, in shitty situations. Thank you for what you do. I couldn't do it, for any wage, for even a day.

I appreciate that!


You know, I try really hard to suppress frustrations and help people understand things from our perspective. This is a job of compounded tough decisions; it's a component of the job. On any given day I may have to shoot a man, a woman......or, gasp!, a minor child (...should they present a weapon - like a firearm - and attempt to end my life or my partner's life). That is tough reality to accept, yet, thousands of us do......every day! Everything is a risk analysis and there is ALWAYS risk involved when it comes to policing.

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

Gee, why didn't anyone else think of disabling the truck? I always love how folks will point out things that are obvious as though people who actually have the training and resources (or don't have the resources) didn't consider the obvious. Who could've predicted things in pursuits are unpredictable, well the police for one.

The cops in the movies always stop the chase and shoot the bad guys, with nary a stray round causing any damage or injury. It should work the same way in real life, by God. Apparently, these Miami cops didn't read their script carefully enough. That's bad police work, failing to memorize their lines and missing queues the way they did.
</sarcasm>

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

Gee, why didn't anyone else think of disabling the truck? I always love how folks will point out things that are obvious as though people who actually have the training and resources (or don't have the resources) didn't consider the obvious. Who could've predicted things in pursuits are unpredictable, well the police for one.

Well, yeah, they clearly didn't think of disabling the truck. I mean, all it would have took was any one of the cruisers involved to get ahead of the truck by a few miles (since they would have of course known exactly where they were going), taken the Barret 50.cal out of the trunk that all cruisers have and put a round through the engine block at a mile away.

Least, I'm pretty sure that's what I've seen in movie police chases. Maybe the officers just weren't shown these movies as training videos and that's what needs to change?

[F30lolz]

Sidestepping the Miami incident for a second, in Hollywood defectives use their own cars while on duty:

Bad Boys
21-22 Jump Street
Miami Vice
Etc...

In the real world, do any defectives actually use their own personal vehicles? Asking for a enemy.

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by F30lolz

Sidestepping the Miami incident for a second, in Hollywood defectives use their own cars while on duty:

Bad Boys
21-22 Jump Street
Miami Vice
Etc...

In the real world, do any defectives actually use their own personal vehicles? Asking for a enemy.

Not in Canada, imagine the liability issues. Luckily the US of A isn't terribly litigious.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by F30lolz

Sidestepping the Miami incident for a second, in Hollywood defectives use their own cars while on duty:

Bad Boys
21-22 Jump Street
Miami Vice
Etc...

In the real world, do any defectives actually use their own personal vehicles? Asking for a enemy.

Nobody I know - regardless of rank - uses their POV's. People jump at the chance to have a take home car. I would too! Free gas, maintenance, etc. Yes please!

[cmyx6go]

Not in NYC. I can’t imagine any city allowing personal vehicles. My detective has a city car. Actually he just got a new Charger last week. Only a 6 cylinder, but it’s new. The patrol get the 8 cylinders. They’re stripped down basics but its new.