[Cos270]

Originally Posted by ga9213

Welp, that's your choice and you're free to make it!

"Free" is going to be a relative term in a few years...

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by Cos270

"Free" us going to be a relative term in a few years...

It's already relative. Always has been.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

Interesting article on the ownership costs of EV's vs Hybrid and ICE. Done over 3 years and it seems that there really isn't any savings for the EV, in most cases it was more expensive. Gas prices were lower for the testing as it was done over 3 years, but once government has to spend trillions to upgrade the grid and gas tax is lost as ICE diminishes the cost for EV will likely go up....way up.
https://driving.ca/features/shopping...fers-surprises

All this tells me is my prediction that PHEV may well be the answer is looking more and more likely.

[Obioban]

Our EV sees 90% of the miles we drive these days. Feels like setting money on fire driving a gas car, with prices where they are.

I've only driven the M3 on the race track and to/from the race track this year. The M5s only see use if one of us is already out in the i3 somewhere.

I have no doubt EVs are going to take off like wildfire once the public gets comfortable with them. They're just absurdly better for how "normal" people (non driving enthusiasts) use cars. No need to warm up the motor before driving hard. 95% reduction in maintenance (in the 80,000 miles we've had the i3, we've replaced tires and washer fluid). Once you are out of the habit, being forced to routinely stop for gas feels like an inconvenience and a rip off-- and that far outweighs the inconvenience of the 1-2 times per year you need to use a public fast charger. Silence. Dramatic increase in simplicity should result in far better reliability, all else equal (as in, Toyota EV vs Toyota ICEV-- not Tesla vs Toyota ICEV).

Plus, it's just dirt cheap to drive. 100 miles in the i3 costs us ~$2 in electricity. 100 miles at 25mpg and $5/gallon (optimistic) costs $20. And that's before factoring in the lack of oil changes, spark plugs, coils, clutches, 02 sensors, CSBs, driveshafts, exhaust mounts, bla bla bla

[StradaRedlands]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

Interesting article on the ownership costs of EV's vs Hybrid and ICE. Done over 3 years and it seems that there really isn't any savings for the EV, in most cases it was more expensive. Gas prices were lower for the testing as it was done over 3 years, but once government has to spend trillions to upgrade the grid and gas tax is lost as ICE diminishes the cost for EV will likely go up....way up.
https://driving.ca/features/shopping...fers-surprises

I like this cost calculator: https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/
If you play around with it, most EVs don't break even for at least 10 years. People in the U.S. keep their new vehicles on average 8.4 years according to the Google. So you probably won't receive a direct financial benefit.
But buying an EV has to be so nice NEVER HAVING TO GO TO A GAS STATION EVER AGAIN!!! And presumably maintenance is much lower. Less parts to break, but a lot more finicky electronics, but still should be a lot less trips to the dealer or time spent in the driveway changing oil and tracking down various oil leaks (this is a BMW forum!!!). Those are huge benefits that must be so nice and need to have a value added to them. Myself I'm hoping for a medium/low cost EV (~$30k) that has a hatch, is fun to drive and doesn't look like a set piece from Blade Runner. Real world mileage of around 200 would get me through the week w/out having to recharge. A CPO BMW i4 in a couple years is looking good IMHO. Will see how it plays out. Would prefer more analog controls, but will have to let that go.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by StradaRedlands

I like this cost calculator: https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/
If you play around with it, most EVs don't break even for at least 10 years. People in the U.S. keep their new vehicles on average 8.4 years according to the Google. So you probably won't receive a direct financial benefit.
But buying an EV has to be so nice NEVER HAVING TO GO TO A GAS STATION EVER AGAIN!!! And presumably maintenance is much lower. Less parts to break, but a lot more finicky electronics, but still should be a lot less trips to the dealer or time spent in the driveway changing oil and tracking down various oil leaks (this is a BMW forum!!!). Those are huge benefits that must be so nice and need to have a value added to them. Myself I'm hoping for a medium/low cost EV (~$30k) that has a hatch, is fun to drive and doesn't look like a set piece from Blade Runner. Real world mileage of around 200 would get me through the week w/out having to recharge. A CPO BMW i4 in a couple years is looking good IMHO. Will see how it plays out. Would prefer more analog controls, but will have to let that go.

Oh boy, now we are going to hear from the crowd that loves going to gas stations…and dealers…and negotiate-fighting for price, etc…

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by RM7

Oh boy, now we are going to hear from the crowd that loves going to gas stations…and dealers…and negotiate-fighting for price, etc…

I get gas 1-2 times a month so not fun, but usually no worse than picking up Chinese food.

Going to the dealership sucks, I will give you that but how is it good that the trend is going towards not be able to negotiate price? You were ALWAYS free to pay MSRP without negotiating.

[XutvJet]

I'm all for more options, more competition, etc. I can't say that I'll never have an EV in my household. EVs do make sense for many (especially non "car people") and they'll only get better.

I do get that they are cheaper to maintain. My biggest concerns are battery life, electronics issues, and God forbid, a motor/drivetrain replacement. Battery life degrades and with that so does acceleration over time. EVs are full of electronics and like our phones, computers, TVs, etc. will become quickly obsolete and non-supported. Much of the motor/drivetrains are not serviceable so if you have a problem, you're replacing that system as a whole. Battery and motor/drivetrain replacements are massively expensive and I don't see most people could afford something like that.

I also have a very very hard time believing that EVs will dominate anything any time soon given the huge reliance in this country on trucks and SUVs. Yes, Ford has developed the Lightning and it can tow, but it's capacity to tow to severely limited. We're likely a decade or more away from light truck being able to really tow useful distance. A heavy truck? Decades away. Not until heavy trucks can go 500 miles+ on a single charge and be charged up in 30 minutes or less would this become viable.

My hunch is that as EVs become more prevalent, it's dirty secrets and cost of ownership will be more impactful than currently seen. Most folks that own EVs are generally in the upper 10% of households in terms of income. I don't see how the majority will be able to afford EVs and their limited life cycle compared to an ICE vehicle.

Automakers are pushing for EVs not because it's better for the environment. They see them as being cheaper and easier to build, easier to control what the owner can and can't do in terms of servicing and where to service, and simply more profitable.

Lastly, government rebates on EVs won't last forever.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I'm all for more options, more competition, etc. I can't say that I'll never have an EV in my household. EVs do make sense for many (especially non "car people") and they'll only get better.

I do get that they are cheaper to maintain. My biggest concerns are battery life, electronics issues, and God forbid, a motor/drivetrain replacement. Battery life degrades and with that so does acceleration over time. EVs are full of electronics and like our phones, computers, TVs, etc. will become quickly obsolete and non-supported. Much of the motor/drivetrains are not serviceable so if you have a problem, you're replacing that system as a whole. Battery and motor/drivetrain replacements are massively expensive and I don't see most people could afford something like that.

I also have a very very hard time believing that EVs will dominate anything any time soon given the huge reliance in this country on trucks and SUVs. Yes, Ford has developed the Lightning and it can tow, but it's capacity to tow to severely limited. We're likely a decade or more away from light truck being able to really tow useful distance. A heavy truck? Decades away. Not until heavy trucks can go 500 miles+ on a single charge and be charged up in 30 minutes or less would this become viable.

My hunch is that as EVs become more prevalent, it's dirty secrets and cost of ownership will be more impactful than currently seen. Most folks that own EVs are generally in the upper 10% of households in terms of income. I don't see how the majority will be able to afford EVs and their limited life cycle compared to an ICE vehicle.

Automakers are pushing for EVs not because it's better for the environment. They see them as being cheaper and easier to build, easier to control what the owner can and can't do in terms of servicing and where to service, and simply more profitable.

Lastly, government rebates on EVs won't last forever.

Excellent and balanced post.

[chassis]

Folks, if we cut though all the hooey the only ones who benefit are the car companies by virtue of lower (high priced union) assembly labor to assemble EVs vs ICEs. Battery cost is an issue today but that will get fixed.

The government doesn’t care which fuel is burned. Tax revenue is created in all scenarios.

90% of car buyers don’t care which fuel is burned, they just need 4 rubber tires and a steering wheel.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

My biggest concerns are battery life, electronics issues, and God forbid, a motor/drivetrain replacement. Battery life degrades and with that so does acceleration over time.

I can't speak for other EVs, but Samsung (who makes the battery in my 94aH i3) says the battery in the 94aH battery in the i3 will be end of life (80% of original capacity) at an average of 526,000 miles. That seems sufficient to me.

Ours is currently at 80,000 miles, and has lost 3% of original capacity according to the cluster battery test (battery kappa max). Most of that happened when the car was fresh off the lot, as is typical.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by chassis

Folks, if we cut though all the hooey the only ones who benefit are the car companies by virtue of lower (high priced union) assembly labor to assemble EVs vs ICEs. Battery cost is an issue today but that will get fixed.

The government doesn’t care which fuel is burned. Tax revenue is created in all scenarios.

90% of car buyers don’t care which fuel is burned, they just need 4 rubber tires and a steering wheel.

This. Shout it from the rooftops.

[StradaRedlands]

Originally Posted by StradaRedlands

Myself I'm hoping for a medium/low cost EV (~$30k) that has a hatch, is fun to drive and doesn't look like a set piece from Blade Runner. Real world mileage of around 200 would get me through the week w/out having to recharge. A CPO BMW i4 in a couple years is looking good IMHO. Will see how it plays out. Would prefer more analog controls, but will have to let that go.

https://www.theautopian.com/the-volk...f-electricity/

Hmmmm, upcoming VW ID.AERO could meet many/all our needs. Wish it was coming out sooner though. If it's a hatch, RWD, and just a few buttons/knobs on the dash, might be the new family vehicle! Probably will be priced above our buying capacity, but if they hold up for the used market...

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by StradaRedlands

https://www.theautopian.com/the-volk...f-electricity/

Hmmmm, upcoming VW ID.AERO could meet many/all our needs. Wish it was coming out sooner though. If it's a hatch, RWD, and just a few buttons/knobs on the dash, might be the new family vehicle! Probably will be priced above our buying capacity, but if they hold up for the used market...

My god that thing is bland AF!! Why do 99% of the EV's look like ass? Put some damn lines on the car/SUV. My god🤪 Steal some fake vents and wings from the Supra or something.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

My god that thing is bland AF!! Why do 99% of the EV's look like ass? Put some damn lines on the car/SUV. My god�� Steal some fake vents and wings from the Supra or something.

They tend to look the way they look because you can get better range from an aerodynamic shape with the same battery pack size. Since the battery is the main cost of the EV, and range is a primary buying consideration (mostly misguided, imo, but whatever), getting more range from an aerodynamic shape makes sense.

Large part of why the Wranger 4xe gets 20-25 miles from a 17kwh battery while a first gen i3 gets 90 miles from a 22kwh battery.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by Obioban

They tend to look the way they look because you can get better range from an aerodynamic shape with the same battery pack size.

Isn't that the same for any vehicle though?

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

Isn't that the same for any vehicle though?

Yeah, it just matters a lot less. EVs thrive on efficiency.

E.g. my i3 has a 33kwh battery (of which 27kwh is useable). On that battery I can drive ~125 miles.

1 gallon of gas has ~33kwh of energy in it. How many cars can go 150 miles on a single gallon of gas?
(if you ever see the "MPGe" ratings on on EVs, that's what it's referring to)

ICEVs are absurdly less efficient at converting energy into motion-- most of it is just expelled as heat (exhaust, radiators, oil coolers, brake rotors etc). If only 30% of the energy is being converted into motion in the first place, losing a bit more of it to drag isn't that big of a deal.

This is also why EVs use less total energy, even if the power plant powering them is gas (even after factoring in transmission losses). Gas power plants can run at 60%+ efficiency, which is well above what any internal combustion engine can do.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by StradaRedlands

I like this cost calculator: https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/
If you play around with it, most EVs don't break even for at least 10 years. People in the U.S. keep their new vehicles on average 8.4 years according to the Google. So you probably won't receive a direct financial benefit.
But buying an EV has to be so nice NEVER HAVING TO GO TO A GAS STATION EVER AGAIN!!! And presumably maintenance is much lower. Less parts to break, but a lot more finicky electronics, but still should be a lot less trips to the dealer or time spent in the driveway changing oil and tracking down various oil leaks (this is a BMW forum!!!). Those are huge benefits that must be so nice and need to have a value added to them. Myself I'm hoping for a medium/low cost EV (~$30k) that has a hatch, is fun to drive and doesn't look like a set piece from Blade Runner. Real world mileage of around 200 would get me through the week w/out having to recharge. A CPO BMW i4 in a couple years is looking good IMHO. Will see how it plays out. Would prefer more analog controls, but will have to let that go.

That is how I ended up with the i3 (although it certainly has a bit of blade runner).

I was commuting 105 miles/day at the time. Going from doing that in the M5 to the i3 lowered our monthly car expenses by $700, all in (gas, oil, maintenance, tires, bla bla bla).

I bought the i3, 2.5 years old as a CPO with <20,000 miles, for $17,000. It paid for itself stupidly fast (2 years)/

Now we just have a carbon monocoque, rear wheel drive, rear engined, zero lag, 2700 lb, lowest CoG of any BMW, family 4 seater hatchback that's stupidly cheap to drive.

It doesn't get through the week without a recharge, but it doesn't matter- I'm not using public chargers, just charging it at home-- so every day it starts out with the full 125 miles of range. Way less of a PITA than getting gas every 2-3 days as I was DDing the M5, and way less effort/expense upkeeping it (tires and washer fluid).

... but it is ugly, as you point out.

[Alfisti]

Comparing to an M5 is a bit crazy. Compare it to a corolla hatch or Mazda 3 hatch or whatever.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Did you get rid of the M5?

No, still have both M5s

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Bingo!

I still suspect you'd come out in front because the absolutely ABSURD miles but truth be told, 100+ mile commute in a M5 means you've made serious mistakes before even deciding which car to use.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I still suspect you'd come out in front because the absolutely ABSURD miles but truth be told, 100+ mile commute in a M5 means you've made serious mistakes before even deciding which car to use.

Lol, well, the 100 mile commute started after I already owned 4 cars, and they were all M cars... so I was DDing the one that was best on highways.

This was all the e39 M5, btw. The e60 M5 gets 50% worse highway fuel economy than the e39, so it would have been even more skewed numbers.

But, yes, I recognize that M5 skews costs upward for the ICEVs-- that's why when I was posting generic numbers earlier, I didn't use my own cars as the baseline.

My personal situation is actually even more skewed, because the electric company ends up owing me $300-400 at the end of every month, despite every utility in my house being electric, so calculating what the i3 actually costs me to run is... tricky.