[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Brigand

While some of the manuals have been epic, the 8AT is another league again compared to your average auto.

Fully agree... it's absolutely brilliant, just fantastic, that transmission.... still I couldn't convince myself to buy it, as I prefer manual it in the same car.

I'm not trying to "convert" anybody here. Clearly you've had your shares of manuals and there's no need to convince you, it's great that AT works for you and others. I'm just not there (yet ??) .

[captainaudio]

Once you master the art of driving it becomes instinctive and muscle memory and the thought process involved is below the surface. You don't see a stop sign and think "I am going to have to slow down and stop soon, how do I do that? Oh, the brake pedal, which one is that? Is it the one on the right, the one on the left or the one in the center? Oh, now I remember its the one in the center. Now which foot do I use to press it and how hard do I need to press it and for how long?".

To a large extent the same holds true for shifting gears with an MT. At some point it becomes instinctive. I rarely look at the tach to determine what gear to be in the entire shifting process becomes second nature. You develop a feel for what gear you are in and what gear you need or want to be in. When you add the extreme power and flat torque curve of many modern cars to the equation you are in a situation where the gear you are in is not all that critical.

As an example if you know how to heel and toe and double clutch a downshift try going through the motions while you are sitting in a chair. If I try it in a chair I really have to think about it but when I am in a car I just do it with very little conscious thought process.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I was involved in a conversation with a group of professional drivers at an event I attended recently. These were guys who have raced (and won) at LeMans, Sebring, Daytona and the Indy 500 and a few of them competed in Formula 1. Several of them were national champions in various race series and most of them are currently employed testing cars for manufacturers and auto magazines.

There was a general consensus that MTs were enjoyable and involving but when I brought up the issue of control not one of them felt that an MT gave more control than a paddle shifted transmission.

I tend to give the opinions of these pros more weight than the opinions of random posters on an Internet forum.

This (bold/underlined above) sums it up perfectly , that's why I said we shouldn't try to confuse performance and driving enjoyment when debating pros and cons of each.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

This (bold/underlined above) sums it up perfectly , that's why I said we shouldn't try to confuse performance and driving enjoyment when debating pros and cons of each.

The fact that there was a consensus that MTs were enjoyable does not imply that DCTs were not and in fact nobody in the discussion said that although it was agreed that it was a different experience.

The fact that you enjoy something does not mean everyone else does or should. Millions of people enjoy watching sports. I personally don't. I have lived in NYC for over 30 years and have been to one Yankees game and one Mets game. I was totally bored while surrounded by thousands of cheering fans.

Depending on the car I enjoy driving both MTs and ATs. For my use of a car the performance differences are a non issue.

What each of us find fun and enjoyable or dull and boring is a personal opinion not an absolute statement of fact.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I was involved in a conversation with a group of professional drivers at an event I attended recently. These were guys who have raced (and won) at LeMans, Sebring, Daytona and the Indy 500 and a few of them competed in Formula 1. Several of them were national champions in various race series and most of them are currently employed testing cars for manufacturers and auto magazines.

I asked one of them (who happened to be the Senior Skip Barber Instructor who helped me learn how to heel and toe and double clutch) how he liked the DCT in the E92 M3 he drives. His answer was "It shifts better than I can".

There was a general consensus that MTs were enjoyable and involving but when I brought up the issue of control not one of them felt that an MT gave more control than a paddle shifted transmission.

I had a similar conversation with one of the drivers from team RLL whose personal car is an E92 M3 with DCT,

I tend to give the opinions of these pros more weight than the opinions of random posters on an Internet forum.

But you aren't a pro driver. These guys drives cars for a living. They don't need an engaging weekend canyon carver.

Like I said, of course DCT is faster. Again I am so tired of hearing this argument, you guys aren't trying to shave seconds off your run to the grocery store so who cares if it's faster?!

Originally Posted by captainaudio

My experience with high performance driving schools has shown me that it is surprisingly high. They may be able to smoothly start from a stop and get from one gear to another but many have no idea how to heel and toe or even rev match a downshift. In many cases they spend a lot of time in the wrong gear. Knowing how to operate a clutch pedal does not make you Juan Pablo Montoya.

That's the opposite of what I'm saying. Everyone defends DCT because it is faster. What I'm saying is why does everyone think they run the Nurburgring every weekend and need to shift faster? Manual is slower. There's no way you can argue DCT is a more engaging experience because it is computer driven and disconnected.

My experience here in Alberta is that most DCT drivers cannot drive manual and are too ashamed to admit it. This usually comes out at HPDE. But they are quick to point out that DCT "shifts faster than manual" and "saves fuel". Which.. is hilarious because you own an M car.. and care about fuel consumption.. but that's another argument.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The fact that there was a consensus that MTs were enjoyable does not imply that DCTs were not and in fact nobody in the discussion said that although it was agreed that it was a different experience.

What each of us find fun and enjoyable or dull and boring is a personal opinion not an absolute statement of fact.

Fully agree. However never once did I say any of my opinions are preferences are a fact and should apply to everyone, that'd be fairly arrogant and dumb thing to do.

It's an internet forum right, we debate pros and cons of certain things.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

Fully agree. However never once did I say any of my opinions are preferences are a fact and should apply to everyone, that'd be fairly arrogant and dumb thing to do.

It's an internet forum right, we debate pros and cons of certain things.

I did not mean to imply that you were stating that your preferences were facts but there are many here who are doing exactly that,

And yes it is an internet forum and we debate certain things. I find it interesting to hear what other people think. I have learned a lot over the years from people who thought differently than I did, It would be a dull world indeed if everyone agreed on everything.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by stefan

But you aren't a pro driver. These guys drives cars for a living. They don't need an engaging weekend canyon carver.

Like I said, of course DCT is faster. Again I am so tired of hearing this argument, you guys aren't trying to shave seconds off your run to the grocery store so who cares if it's faster?!

That's the opposite of what I'm saying. Everyone defends DCT because it is faster. What I'm saying is why does everyone think they run the Nurburgring every weekend and need to shift faster? Manual is slower. There's no way you can argue DCT is a more engaging experience because it is computer driven and disconnected.

My experience here in Alberta is that most DCT drivers cannot drive manual and are too ashamed to admit it. This usually comes out at HPDE. But they are quick to point out that DCT "shifts faster than manual" and "saves fuel". Which.. is hilarious because you own an M car.. and care about fuel consumption.. but that's another argument.

If you read my post you would have seen that we were discussing control not shift speed and the consensus was that MTs do not give more control as many here have claimed. As far as shift speed is concerned I have stated that I consider it to be a moot point in a street car.

As for what you find engaging, fine. Just don't try to tell anyone else what they should find engaging. I have no idea what other people find "engaging" unless they tell me and if they do I am certainly not going to dispute it.

Personally I am not trying to shave seconds off trips to the grocery store. I also don't find driving to the grocery store particularly engaging regardless of what I drive there.

As for being computer driven and disconnected the whole damn car is computer driven. The throttle, the suspension, the brakes, the engine and the auto rev matching and hill holding on the (Semi) manual transmission.

My experience at high performance driving schools is that many MT drivers are not particularly good at driving MTs. Some realize and want to learn to improve and others are totally oblivious to their own shortcomings.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by stefan

My experience here in Alberta is that most DCT drivers cannot drive manual and are too ashamed to admit it. This usually comes out at HPDE. But they are quick to point out that DCT "shifts faster than manual" and "saves fuel". Which.. is hilarious because you own an M car.. and care about fuel consumption.. but that's another argument.

Someone else earlier pointed out this not to be true, but in my experience too (speaking for North American buyers - completely different in Europe of course), probably half of the buyers who opt for automatic transmission do so because they simply don't know or can't be bothered to learn how to drive manual (and I'm not talking only BMW owners). The other half, some do it for performance, some for resale, some because cars they like simply aren't offered with manual transmission and then only I believe comes the group of buyers who truly prefer it.

Don't really know what the percentage of each group would be, but it's not really that important either.

Any of above reasons are fine, but the truth remains, in North America, less people than anywhere else in the world are capable of driving manual transmission cars, and these numbers are dropping with newly licensed drivers. Personally I think that's sad, but some of you might ague that. Recently I talked younger cousin of mine into learning how to drive manual. He ended up buying his first car, and he's decided to go with manual transmission. And you know what, he loves it. His words "I'm glad I did it, I feel slightly cool about it, different from most of my peers and I'm actually enjoying it, and it's a skill I'll forever have".

[captainaudio]

Living in Manhattan I know a lot of people who have never driven an MT and a lot of people who don't drive at all,

The ones who drive but don't know how to drive an MT do not generally drive high performance cars with DCTs,

I personally encourage new drivers to lean how to shift a manual transmission and have taught a number of them. Their reaction is usually surprise at how easy it was to learn.

You can't learn if you don't try,

It ain't rocket science.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Living in Manhattan I know a lot of people who have never driven an MT and a lot of people who don't drive at all,

The ones who drive but don't know how to drive an MT do not generally drive high performance cars with DCTs,

I personally encourage new drivers to lean how to shift a manual transmission and have taught a number of them. Their reaction is usually surprise at how easy it was to learn.

You can't learn if you don't try,

It ain't rocket science.

From this side of the pond it's all very humorous on how scared / lazy or whatever people over there are to having automatics over manuals.

It's little wonder those who can drive a manual car (a normal car) hold themselves in a fighter pilot aloofness.


How do you know there is a manual car driver in the bar?

He tells you



I actually don't know anyone that can only drive an automatic, pretty much everyone I know learned to drive in a manual and owns one. Mainly big diesels or 3.0l cars are automatics.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Brigand

How do you know there is a manual car driver in the bar?

He tells you

Hey, hey, c'mon now
Somewhat funny but not (always) true of course.

Originally Posted by Brigand

I actually don't know anyone that can only drive an automatic, pretty much everyone I know learned to drive in a manual and owns one. Mainly big diesels or 3.0l cars are automatics.

That's just my point, it's drastically different in North America.
People don't know, don't care and there's less and less opportunity for new drivers to learn. So when it comes to buying new car, choice is pretty simple. Manufacturers then look at that data and say "well, what can we do, nobody wants manual anymore, we might as well stop making them". Perhaps I'm oversimplifying things slightly, but you get the idea.

Plus all along we're talking about fantastic automatic transmissions in BMW/Audi and Mercedes cars (ZF is it??). There are others out there, that are not even close to these (and don't get me even started on CVT ones)

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Brigand

From this side of the pond it's all very humorous on how scared / lazy or whatever people over there are to having automatics over manuals.

It's little wonder those who can drive a manual car (a normal car) hold themselves in a fighter pilot aloofness.


How do you know there is a manual car driver in the bar?

He tells you


I actually don't know anyone that can only drive an automatic, pretty much everyone I know learned to drive in a manual and owns one. Mainly big diesels or 3.0l cars are automatics.

I agree. People want their free hand filled with a soda, not a shifter over here. Sad

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

I agree. People want their free hand filled with a soda, not a shifter over here. Sad

If you are driving properly you don't have a free hand.

[Demon23]

Can't we all just agree to disagree ? )

No but in all honesty, there will be 1 000 000 reasons some of us prefer the DCT, and 1 000 000 reasons why someone else will prefer a manual box.

There is no right or wrong choice, because it's YOUR choice... you .. the driver.. and as we are all Gods children.. we are also all different.. and as a result, we all love diferent things .. or the same thing, in 1 000 000 different ways... doesn't really matter...

In my view YOU have to enjoy your car .. that was made for your pleasure.. if it's a manual, good for you, if it's a DCT, the same.. as long as it brings a smile on your face, what does it matter... really ?

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by Demon23

Can't we all just agree to disagree ? )

No but in all honesty, there will be 1 000 000 reasons some of us prefer the DCT, and 1 000 000 reasons why someone else will prefer a manual box.

There is no right or wrong choice, because it's YOUR choice... you .. the driver.. and as we are all Gods children.. we are also all different.. and as a result, we all love diferent things .. or the same thing, in 1 000 000 different ways... doesn't really matter...

In my view YOU have to enjoy your car .. that was made for your pleasure.. if it's a manual, good for you, if it's a DCT, the same.. as long as it brings a smile on your face, what does it matter... really ?

Frankly, I think it won't be too far into the future when it becomes impossible for folks -- no matter which they prefer -- to buy a manual box in a relatively mainstream new car. At that point, it won't matter much what one prefers or thinks one prefers and there'll be no need to agree to disagree.

All the best.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

...

Does anybody here think that young drivers would be that much better, initially and years down the road, if only they were forced to learn driving and obtain their license with manual transmission (as it was the case when I was "oh-so-young")???

It was very amusing to see this lovely young girl, with great little car, being ABSOLUTELY clueless what RPMs are and how would she even use her paddle shifters. A bit sad if you ask me (and slightly horrifying perhaps, thinking how many others out there are just like that).

Just my $0.02 on the topic

You make an interesting point that tacitly reminds us that for most folks, driving is about transportation, not about sport and entertainment (gizmos inside the car notwithstanding). From a transportation standpoint, and assuming all she wants is a good looking car that provides that, what does that young woman need to know about paddle shifters and RPMs? We all know she can safely ignore both and drive quickly, safely and reach her destination in style and never look at or use either.

All the best.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by tony20009

You make an interesting point that tacitly reminds us that for most folks, driving is about transportation, not about sport and entertainment (gizmos inside the car notwithstanding). From a transportation standpoint, and assuming all she wants is a good looking car that provides that, what does that young woman need to know about paddle shifters and RPMs? We all know she can safely ignore both and drive quickly, safely and reach her destination in style and never look at or use either.

All the best.

But GTI though I'd have somewhat easier digesting this had it been (no disrespect intended) Corolla

I'm not for a second saying she must know or should get a manual transmission car, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that if she did know about RPMs, she might be better/safer driver initially and in the long run (this is her first car, brand new driver's license). Of course, I might be completely off here.... maybe I'm getting to the age when I just complain about young people.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

But GTI though I'd have somewhat easier digesting this had it been (no disrespect intended) Corolla

I'm not for a second saying she must know or should get a manual transmission car, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that if she did know about RPMs, she might be better/safer driver initially and in the long run (this is her first car, brand new driver's license). Of course, I might be completely off here.... maybe I'm getting to the age when I just complain about young people.

Most drivers with automatic transmissions are perfectly fine and safe putting the car in drive and letting the transmission do the shifting, With modern ATs like the ZF 8 speed the car is usually in the right gear for the driving conditions. Even relatively generic family sedans like Honda Accords are now so powerful that it is not necessary to row them through the gears to keep them moving with traffic and gear choice is not that critical.

I think a case could be made that many some MT drivers can be dangerous drivers due to their inflated opinion of their driving abilities (know as DOA - Delusions of Adequacy ). There is also a possibility of missing a shift which can send the car into a rather violent spin if, for example, you are trying to downshift from 6th to 5th and gear 35d by mistake (TCO 0r Trailing Clutch Oversteer).

I understand that many drivers feel more involved when driving an MT and find the experience more enjoyable but I don't buy into any of the more control or more safety arguments that have been put forth on either side of the discussion.

My mother learned how to drive on stick shift cars (so called Standard Shift AKA Three on the Tree) was the norm when she started driving and there were few cars, if any that even offered automatic transmissions). She was perfectly adept shifting and although she is no longer around to ask, I seriousaly doubt she had a concept of engine RPSs and even if she did it would not have done much good because few cars of that era, and I am sure none that she drove, had tachometers. Shifting was done by feel and good MT drivers today shift the same way, I don't have to look at a tach to know that I am in either too high or too low of a gear.

Once AT cars became readily available in the mid 1950s my family bought AT cars (usually full size GM sedans) and my mother saw no reason to ever buy another MT car. She could still drive an MT well and did occasionally when for one reason or another she had to drive one of my cars but had no desire whatsoever to own one.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

But GTI though I'd have somewhat easier digesting this had it been (no disrespect intended) Corolla

I'm not for a second saying she must know or should get a manual transmission car, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that if she did know about RPMs, she might be better/safer driver initially and in the long run (this is her first car, brand new driver's license). Of course, I might be completely off here.... maybe I'm getting to the age when I just complain about young people.

Red:
That is a phenomenon I, having three kids between 18 and 25, understand quite well.

Surprisingly to me, of my three kids, my daughter is the one who prefers a manual, and that's what I got for her. (that she prefers manuals had nothing to do with why I got her one) They all can drive a manual, but my boys don't want to. None of them has had an car accident, but my youngest son managed to capsize a boat. LOL

Blue:
Perhaps....I really don't know. It makes sense to me (although I have no empirical data to support my thinking)...makes sense that folks who drive manual transmission cars are likely less inclined to do clearly unsafe things, such as texting or paying attention to something other than driving, while driving since at least one must have a hand free to shift and one must at times downshift lest the car stall. Short of that I don't have reason to think there's much difference.

At least one blogger has editorialized that there's a correlation between driving safety and knowing how to drive a manual transmission car. (http://www.autoblog.com/2014/02/21/l...etter-drivers/) By the same token, there are some seeming qualified-to-know folks who've concurred with that view point, but who bases his belief to that effect on a rationale that quite simply isn't "on point," writing, "Those who take the initiative to learn to drive stick tend to be better drivers...for the same reason that pilots who can fly a Boeing 747 are better pilots than those who can only fly a Cessna." (http://www.quora.com/Are-people-who-...-car-accidents)

I took his analogy as "747" equating to larger commercial airplanes and "Cessna" to mean small planes because the level of automation and instrumentation in a 747 is so much greater that a worse pilot could seem to be a better one because of it, and because some of the most challenging places to land or take off -- Lukla and St. Barts, for example -- force pilots to deal with conditions that no 747 pilot ever sees while flying a 747. Indeed, 747 pilot or not, one must specifically qualify to fly into and out of those airports. In fact, 747 pilots generally "have it easy" but for a few airports like San Diego, St. Maarten, and a few others.

One study suggests that age is a more relevant factor in driving safety than is the transmission type. (http://acrs.org.au/files/arsrpe/Why%...%20driving.pdf) Another specifically shows that "83% of road traffic accidents are caused by drivers of cars with manual transmission," although the study information doesn't make clear how that translates into proportions of drivers who own manuals and had accidents vs. proportions of drivers who own automatics and had accidents. (http://www.bta.lt/eng/company/news/?30918)

All the best.

[B-1Pilot]

Originally Posted by tony20009

Indeed, 747 pilot or not, one must specifically qualify to fly into and out of those airports. In fact, 747 pilots generally "have it easy" but for a few airports like San Diego, St. Maarten, and a few others.

Not to derail, but your example is way off.

Here's a more realistic comparison... A Cessna is like a pedal car your kid operates in your driveway. A 747 is like a double trailer semi on the autobahn. Just because the autobahns nice concrete roads with people who ostensibly know how to operate there, doesn't mean you would put your kid in a pedal car out there with that semi. That giant semi has its own challenges, not so much because of its own size, but because of the scale that all the others out on the road have imposed.

Oh by the way... add Kabul or Kandahar Afghanistan to your "hard" list for 747s... seeing them come in there is some sketchy shit.

[Bbb34]

Latest study (haven't read all of your links) is from Lithuania, I doubt large percentage of car owners with automatic transmission cars there, but I could be wrong. That said, I wouldn't bet my house either side is "safer" on the road.

But, let me back up a bit. I didn't mean to say that manual transmission owners are better drivers, I'm not that ignorant.

I was more thinking along the lines that when you INITIALLY learn to drive with manual transmission, you have to understand how car operates in order to get it moving. You will by default learn when and how to shift, likely have better awareness on how much torque goes to the wheels at all times, and presumably have somewhat proper gear for most of the conditions and roads out there. At the same time, you must prove you're capable of multitasking behind the wheel more so than with automatic. In my opinion, this is a good thing. I can see how some might argue "less distraction/multitasking" is better for a new driver, therefore automatic is "better" for new drivers.

Of course there are bad drivers with manual out there, can't argue that.
Not to derail the thread, just trying to explain what I meant.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I understand that many drivers feel more involved when driving an MT and find the experience more enjoyable but I don't buy into any of the more control or more safety arguments that have been put forth on either side of the discussion.

I was only thinking new drivers might, just might be a bit better for this experience, as I tried explaining here ;-)