[M5Rick]

The 'penalty' proposed by gov body of 25 percent reduction of wind tunnel time for next season with a fine and naturally Red Bull disagrees. No word of any punishment for the mole within the body who gave out confidential tax info to a third party.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/14884...disagrees.html

[E86Z4MC]

When we are talking about punishments for "moles", my question would be, why? Would folks be similarly upset if, for example, we knew the definitive outcome of Ferrari's engine gate?

I'm not sure how anything shared gives any team a distinct technical advantage, and if nothing else, is in line with normal f1 type politics.

If teams don't want dirty laundry aired out, then they shouldn't make dirty laundry to begin with. I myself actually encourage more transparency on these types of issues.

[M5Rick]

^ In this case it's someone who used to work for Merc, a lawyer in the Fia now that has twisted budget limit account returns around for a team to make them look as if they went over the limit.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

^ In this case it's someone who used to work for Merc, a lawyer in the Fia now that has twisted budget limit account returns around for a team to make them look as if they went over the limit.

Do you know why God made snakes before he made lawyers?

He needed the practice

[lens]

Originally Posted by M3WC

LOL...no shot.

What a let down.

Ah hahaha all the haters quiet and punching the air right now.


RBR was never going to lose here, they were confident.

If I was RBR, I would start going after the media and drivers that started assuming for harsh penalties before it was even done, and start finding that leaky mole.

[lens]

Originally Posted by E86Z4MC

When we are talking about punishments for "moles", my question would be, why? Would folks be similarly upset if, for example, we knew the definitive outcome of Ferrari's engine gate?

I'm not sure how anything shared gives any team a distinct technical advantage, and if nothing else, is in line with normal f1 type politics.

If teams don't want dirty laundry aired out, then they shouldn't make dirty laundry to begin with. I myself actually encourage more transparency on these types of issues.

Except the FIA said these kind of stuff is confidential and shouldn't have happened.


Doesn't matter how much dirty laundry you have, noone is supposed to know until the FIA themselves do the investigation and call them out on it. As you can see, the leak was completely false (like the flexi floor) and it made alot of people look bad, and painted RBR as the bad guy when they did nothing wrong.

[3798j]

According to Michael Schmidt, F1 reporter for Auto Motor & Sport, "the racing team has known for a week what punishment it faces” and it is “allegedly a deduction of 25 percent of the wind tunnel time for the coming season plus a fine."
“From the FIA’s point of view, it is up to Red Bull how quickly the process ends."
“If an agreement is reached with the cost cap administrator, the file can be closed immediately."
“If it goes to court, the matter can drag on for another six months."

[M5Rick]

^ Horner has to consult RB boss before he does anything, when it's explained to Mateschitz what wind tunnel time loss will cost the team it may well go to court.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

^ In this case it's someone who used to work for Merc, a lawyer in the Fia now that has twisted budget limit account returns around for a team to make them look as if they went over the limit.

Agreed. This is cheating by MB - the person Toto planted in the FIA not only changes the rules after the fact, but also leaks the info. How are they going to handle this plus the leak of the TD that MB was tipped on? Some of the changes made to "the budget" were 3 months after the books were closed. Seems highly suspicious to me.

[3798j]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

^ Horner has to consult RB boss before he does anything, when it's explained to Mateschitz what wind tunnel time loss will cost the team it may well go to court.

Hope Mateschitz decides to go to court...that should keep the controversy front and center right up to the start of '23 season.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by 3798j

Hope Mateschitz decides to go to court...that should keep the controversy front and center right up to the start of '23 season.

They should take it to court, if they still think they have done nothing wrong. Horner and team are quite adamant of that.

They have nothing to lose now that this has leaked today:

A retrospective penalty with a points deduction for 2021 would be off the table.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

^ Horner has to consult RB boss before he does anything, when it's explained to Mateschitz what wind tunnel time loss will cost the team it may well go to court.

It is definitely going to court. Where they can argue about accounting for catering costs and gardening leave.

Retrospective points penalty are apparently off the table, since matter has been deemed procedural.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

The 'penalty' proposed by gov body of 25 percent reduction of wind tunnel time for next season with a fine and naturally Red Bull disagrees. No word of any punishment for the mole within the body who gave out confidential tax info to a third party.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/14884...disagrees.html

Originally Posted by M5Rick

^ In this case it's someone who used to work for Merc, a lawyer in the Fia now that has twisted budget limit account returns around for a team to make them look as if they went over the limit.

The FIA cannot punish Red Bull harder ... Because :

Wolff and Mercedes was tipped at least 5-times in 2021/2022 by someone from the FIA !
By the ex-Mercedes woman 'Shaila-Ann Rao as the FIA’s interim Secretary General => https://www.planetf1.com/news/bernie...fia-dangerous/

Wolff got protected private information from the FIA regarding Red Bull's budget cap but also from the 2022 RB18 upgrades !
Let's step further ...

Red Bull Information was leaked (tipped) to Wolff by spying about the amount of money spent and on which upgraded part of the car it was spent and the meaning of it ...
Drawings of the upgraded part must always be attached and the cost of it , because the new upgrade/s must first always be approved by the FIA !
This means that Wolff and Mercedes could spy in detail about the RB18 upgrades and by what and how they made the Red Bull car better and faster ..

Let's remember the EMILIA-ROMAGNA GP (April-24) and the moment when MAX lapped HAM !
Just 2 weeks later at the MIAMI GP (May-08) RUS was P5 and HAM was P6 !

Suddenly and only (2 weeks later) the extreme bouncing Mercedes was for 80% fixed and HAM's back pain & brain damage was gone !
It was a Mercedes miracle !
But ...By spying and using the inventions of the RB18 upgrades (if possible , or reworked at the Mercedes factory to fix the bouncing Mercedes car without side-pods)

So , Who is actually the most guilty one in the whole situation ?
IMHO. I see the whole situation as spying and corruption from the highest degree ..
The Mercedes espionage by using the FIA is a true shame for motorsports !


Let's watch a flashback from the EMILIA-ROMAGNA GP (April-24)

[G30M]

and penalties for bowling causing millions in damage? 5 place grid penalty. maybe they go to court for grid penalty?

https://www.crash.net/f1/feature/984...turn-1-carnage

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

The FIA cannot punish Red Bull harder ... Because :

Wolff and Mercedes was tipped at least 5-times in 2021/2022 by someone from the FIA !
By the ex-Mercedes woman 'Shaila-Ann Rao as the FIA’s interim Secretary General => https://www.planetf1.com/news/bernie...fia-dangerous/

Wolff got protected private information from the FIA regarding Red Bull's budget cap but also from the 2022 RB18 upgrades !
Let's step further ...

Red Bull Information was leaked (tipped) to Wolff by spying about the amount of money spent and on which upgraded part of the car it was spent and the meaning of it ...
Drawings of the upgraded part must always be attached and the cost of it , because the new upgrade/s must first always be approved by the FIA !
This means that Wolff and Mercedes could spy in detail about the RB18 upgrades and by what and how they made the Red Bull car better and faster ..

Let's remember the EMILIA-ROMAGNA GP (April-24) and the moment when MAX lapped HAM !
Just 2 weeks later at the MIAMI GP (May-08) RUS was P5 and HAM was P6 !

Suddenly and only (2 weeks later) the extreme bouncing Mercedes was for 80% fixed and HAM's back pain & brain damage was gone !
It was a Mercedes miracle !
But ...By spying and using the inventions of the RB18 upgrades (if possible , or reworked at the Mercedes factory to fix the bouncing Mercedes car without side-pods)

So , Who is actually the most guilty one in the whole situation ?
IMHO. I see the whole situation as spying and corruption from the highest degree ..
The Mercedes espionage by using the FIA is a true shame for motorsports !


Let's watch a flashback from the EMILIA-ROMAGNA GP (April-24)

On top of this Zak Brown is doing untold damage with unfounded accusations against RB which is even affecting RB's employees children, some who are apparently are being bullied in school b/c of this. This idiot should keep his mouth shut before he knows what he's talking about.
https://racingnews365.com/horner-sla...ng-allegations

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

On top of this Zak Brown is doing untold damage with unfounded accusations against RB which is even affecting RB's employees children, some who are apparently are being bullied in school b/c of this. This idiot should keep his mouth shut before he knows what he's talking about.
https://racingnews365.com/horner-sla...ng-allegations

Yeah . I heard that . It's crazy ! Brown's mouth is always been too big ..

BTW : Brown is part of Mercedes because his PU is Mercedes !
Brown and Wolff are one ..

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Yeah . I heard that . It's crazy ! Brown's mouth is always been too big ..

BTW : Brown is part of Mercedes because his PU is Mercedes !
Brown and Wolff are one ..

That's right, it's like when Wolff stops brown takes over.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

That's right, it's like when Wolff stops brown takes over.

That wont help them . The FIA can't speak right out in public , that they are having a spy working for them ,who was paid by Wolff !

The FIA has now troubles enough to brush their own dirty dust under the carpet !

The corruption is a shame for motorsports !

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

On top of this Zak Brown is doing untold damage with unfounded accusations against RB which is even affecting RB's employees children, some who are apparently are being bullied in school b/c of this. This idiot should keep his mouth shut before he knows what he's talking about.
https://racingnews365.com/horner-sla...ng-allegations

I am a McLaren fan, he does need to shut his damn mouth and worry about making his cars quicker. They have a true talent in Lando and they are wasting it.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by 3798j

According to Michael Schmidt, F1 reporter for Auto Motor & Sport, "the racing team has known for a week what punishment it faces” and it is “allegedly a deduction of 25 percent of the wind tunnel time for the coming season plus a fine."
“From the FIA’s point of view, it is up to Red Bull how quickly the process ends."
“If an agreement is reached with the cost cap administrator, the file can be closed immediately."
“If it goes to court, the matter can drag on for another six months."

Originally Posted by M5Rick

^ Horner has to consult RB boss before he does anything, when it's explained to Mateschitz what wind tunnel time loss will cost the team it may well go to court.

Originally Posted by 3798j

Hope Mateschitz decides to go to court...that should keep the controversy front and center right up to the start of '23 season.

Dietrich Mateschitz has passed away, so can no longer weigh in on how the 'cost cap' story will end. But according to Belgian F1 journalist Vigneron he was very angry about FIA's 'cost cap' accusations and allegedly had made clear that he would firmly stand his ground in this matter.

So, quite likely Red Bull Racing will exhaust all proceedings.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formu...hment-28202356 ("'FIA could risk damaging and ugly F1 fight if they get Red Bull cap punishment wrong'" - Oct 10, 2022):

"The first attempt to settle the issue will be with what is called an "Accepted Breach Agreement". Red Bull may be tempted to go down this route as it would take away the risk of losing championship points. But to do this they must accept responsibility publicly, agree to bear costs and waive their right to appeal, which they may not be willing to do.
If an ABA cannot be agreed, then the case goes to the Cost Cap Adjudication Panel. Judges at a hearing would then hear both sides of the story before deciding whether or not the team is guilty of the offence the FIA is accusing them of. But taking the issue to court and losing is likely to result in a harsher punishment than before.
The whole process creates a delicate balancing act for the FIA to try to perform. If they try to make an example of Red Bull with a harsh punishment, it may well start a very ugly, lengthy and costly fight which could be damaging to the organisation and to Formula 1. Too lenient, and they set a precedent which could make the cost cap rule powerless in the future."

More details: FIA Team Principals press conference - United States - Jost Capito (Williams), Zak Brown (McLaren) and Christian Horner (Red Bull):
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...oSJs7rKsK.html

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by M3WC

I am a McLaren fan, he does need to shut his damn mouth and worry about making his cars quicker. They have a true talent in Lando and they are wasting it.

Norris has shown his frustration more than once.

[Artemis]

When publicly questioned about the innuendo in his 'cost cap' letter sent to FIA, Zak Brown started to backpaddle a bit, pointing out that his comments were rather hypothetical about the situation of a 'cost cap' breach + admitted that he doesn't know the facts about Red Bull + was not targeting a team.

A bit like a loud social media keyboard warrior posting bold stuff from behind his screen, but subsequently downplaying his wild statements before cameras when confronted with what he posted.

Horner specified that the Red Bull 'cost cap' conflict with FIA comes down to different interpretations of the 52-page FIA Financial Regulations. Accountants disagree on how to apply some of those new 'cost cap' rules and are in the course of explaining their points of view to FIA.

Read what Brown and Horner said, taking digs at each other:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...oSJs7rKsK.html

If grey zones exist, FIA should either finetune the rules or issue a clarification to avoid future misunderstandings. That's how things usually go when new rules take force that can reasonably be interpreted in different ways. Unfair to impose penalties if the interpretation was legitimate (let's disregard the situations of abusive interpretation), even if the rule maker intended it differently.

Reminds of tax lawyers going into battle with tax authorities: discussing on how to interpret/apply a new tax rule. If the discussion stalls, call in neutral competent third parties to decide over the conflict (court of law, arbitrators, etc.). If you and your lawyers are convinced - contrary to tax authorities - that you can legitimately interpret/apply a new tax rule the way you did, then why would you allow tax authorities to blame you: claim that you violated the new tax rule and impose a penalty ? If your reputation and money are at stake, and you truly consider that the tax authorities got it wrong, you firmly stand your ground and let your lawyers take their responsibility to fight for what they advised you. And if social media without access to the file starts to condemn you (trial by media), you remind all to the fundamental principle that you are fully allowed to stand up for your rights and that they don't have the competence to judge you.

Now, if the interpretation adopted by Red Bull would be considered by competent third parties to be illegitimate, penalties provided for by the FIA regulations should apply. If the interpretation is considered to be legitimate, FIA should back off. Maybe a settlement is agreed to save faces on both sides, trade off risks and to get rid of the time and money consuming conflict.

No-one on this forum knows the details. So hold your horses till decisions from competent authorities become final.

The times that F1 teams swallowed whatever FIA decided, are over.