[floridaorange]

That schedule actually makes a lot of sense - that's a more advanced routine than I guess I expected but clearly there are some disciplined dedicated lifters around here. I'm still doing a split - push / pull / legs but I could see moving to your program actually at some point. If I had a badass home gym I'd be doing twice a days 7 days a week probably

[JP10]

Originally Posted by floridaorange

That schedule actually makes a lot of sense - that's a more advanced routine than I guess I expected but clearly there are some disciplined dedicated lifters around here. I'm still doing a split - push / pull / legs but I could see moving to your program actually at some point. If I had a badass home gym I'd be doing twice a days 7 days a week probably

Much appreciated man. My body seems to do well with it, again not overworking anything or at least it doesn't feel that way. Sometimes my biceps are a little sore going into shoulders/bicep day, but other then that it works pretty well. Two reasons I don't do the typical back/biceps an shoulders/tricep days. 1, splitting them up helps me get the best at of the muscle group I am really focusing on, i.e. shoulder or back. 2, size is not my main concern right now, so I am fine with working a muscle group a little more then it "should" be.

I've never gotten into the hole push/pull/legs thing, and this is mainly due to time. My avg routine is in the gym by 5:15am, cardio for 10mins to warm up, lift for 45mins avg, then more intense cardio to finish for 15mins. I need to be in the shower by 6:50 because I like to get to work right around 7 (gym is 2 mins from work). I feel like I would need around 75mins of just lifting to get through push or pull.

A sick home gym would be awesome, I'd probably use it whenever I'm bored haha.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by JP10

My body seems to do well with it, again not overworking anything or at least it doesn't feel that way.

Complete side note, but recently I read about a guy who tried a clinically tested protocol: 30 minute workout 1/week for 9 months and had larger gains than anything he'd ever tried.

Apparently the trick is you have to totally exhaust each muscle group, like to complete total utter devastation - I guess it was designed by some lifting royalty guy (obvs I don't remember the details). Ultimately he quit doing it because he feared each session due to the lactic acid pain endured for the 30 minutes.

If anyone is interested I'll see if I can find the link - overall though, just an interesting view into how the nervous system works

[1MOREMOD]

I have 7 day split.

Mon - back
Tue - chest
Wed - legs primarily hamstring
Thurs - shoulders and traps
Fri - arms
Sat - legs primarily quads
Sun - calves and forearms
Calves traps and cardio also get done randomly during the week.

[floridaorange]

@GrussGott I'd like to see that - I saw a guy at my old gym workout that way - he was also huge.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by floridaorange

@GrussGott I'd like to see that - I saw a guy at my old gym workout that way - he was also huge.

Found it!

Super Slow High Intensity Training:
Is 15 minutes of Strength Training A Week Enough?

Body By Science High Intensity Training Review:
My 9 Month Experiment

Book on Amazon:
Body by Science: A Research Based Program for Strength Training, Body building, and Complete Fitness in 12 Minutes a Week
by John Little, Doug McGuff

[JP10]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Found it!

Super Slow High Intensity Training:
Is 15 minutes of Strength Training A Week Enough?

Body By Science High Intensity Training Review:
My 9 Month Experiment

Book on Amazon:
Body by Science: A Research Based Program for Strength Training, Body building, and Complete Fitness in 12 Minutes a Week
by John Little, Doug McGuff

I read the 2nd link you provided. It needs to be understood that this guy was a prime athlete prior to beginning that regimen. At one point he was 230lbs with 12% BF squating over 540lbs.... He's not your average joe, and if he did this naturally he has well above avg test lvls because those numbers are basically impossible if you research the limits of natural body building. I'm not sure his height, but he doesn't look that tall.

He lost 8kgs of mass during that time, 17lbs. I saw he said his BF% dropped 2%, that converts roughly to 4lbs. So he lost 13lbs of muscle.... That is major loss. Again research natural limits, the first 2 years you may be able to put that amount of muscle on rather quickly. But once you reach a certain point the amount of muscle you are able to add yearly dwindles, if my memory serves it is around 5-6lbs/yr. My point, it could take him awhile to put that size back on if he ever wanted to, that is a substantial amount of muscle.

My take away from the article
1) The guy was already in tip-top shape, with substantial muscle muscle per overall weight.
2) Of course his diet was all over the place, with that amount of muscle you don't really need to care. Your body will take care of most of the excess calories when taken in.
3) He lost upwards of 13lbs of muscle, this almost makes me nauseous. It would take me 2 yrs to add that back.
4) In my eyes, this is not an effective training regimen. He could have lost the same amount of weight by doing nothing. You lose muscle twice as fast as you gain it, I've always stuck to that and feel it is relatively true.

Interesting non-the-less, but nothing to be impressed by (in my opinion).

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by JP10

My take away from the article

Another takeaway should be that he's a single test case with - as you noted - unique circumstances to him and without understanding the protocol yourself for your body, you don't really know.

I'm not advocating for it, just offering that you've made a lot of conclusions from a single person who's adherence to the protocol is based on an internet post versus you seeing / experiencing it.

[JP10]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Another takeaway should be that he's a single test case with - as you noted - unique circumstances to him and without understanding the protocol yourself for your body, you don't really know.

I'm not advocating for it, just offering that you've made a lot of conclusions from a single person who's adherence to the protocol is based on an internet post versus you seeing / experiencing it.

100% understand, didn't mean to come off harsh in my thoughts on it either. Fitness/health is such a smoke and mirrors topic that sometimes when I read things it frustrates me lol. More so because those who do not know will believe it to be true, but again this goes for that industry in a whole haha.

[monkeyjuice5150]

They're letting gyms open outdoor.....

okay, that shit just doesn't make sense at all. Can't really do shit.

[JP10]

Well I finally took an off day although it wasn't on purpose. Overslept and missed the gym in the morning. Planned to then go after work and something else popped up. Anyways, got back in the gym this morning for chest day, always get a crazy chest pump, feel like I go up a cup size lol. Finished with running until an abdominal cramp about took me to my knees then switched over to incline walking.

Solid non-the-less. Dropping weight too, about 9 days from vacation. Going to see if I can get my abs back lol.

[rebekahb]

I take 2 days off a week (Sun & Wed). I find it's better for my body. I carry a lot of inflammation if I work out constant. I was using Class Pass before Covid because it gave me variety. I loved doing Pilates Reformer but didn't want a membership where that was my only option. If I didn't have any lunch appointments I would do a workout wherever I was close to which was nice.


For the past several months I've been using weights at home. I say I've seen better results using weights more consistently. My goal is good overall tone & definition. I work out outside so I get a good sweat in. Today it was 85 but felt like 94 with 75% humidity.

[King Rudi]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Complete side note, but recently I read about a guy who tried a clinically tested protocol: 30 minute workout 1/week for 9 months and had larger gains than anything he'd ever tried.

Apparently the trick is you have to totally exhaust each muscle group, like to complete total utter devastation - I guess it was designed by some lifting royalty guy (obvs I don't remember the details). Ultimately he quit doing it because he feared each session due to the lactic acid pain endured for the 30 minutes.

If anyone is interested I'll see if I can find the link - overall though, just an interesting view into how the nervous system works

I heard about this yesterday. Interesting to say the least. I'll be doing some research as I find time.

I have officially started my bulk as of the first. Sadly, I dipped so low into the caloric intake during the cut, that I've made my baseline incredibly low. If I go beyond 1600 kcal/day, I gain fat. Slowly increasing my calories weekly until I get to 2300/day. I plan to bulk until the end of February or March. Stoked to see what the results will be in Spring.

[JP10]

Originally Posted by rebekahb

I take 2 days off a week (Sun & Wed). I find it's better for my body. I carry a lot of inflammation if I work out constant. I was using Class Pass before Covid because it gave me variety. I loved doing Pilates Reformer but didn't want a membership where that was my only option. If I didn't have any lunch appointments I would do a workout wherever I was close to which was nice.


For the past several months I've been using weights at home. I say I've seen better results using weights more consistently. My goal is good overall tone & definition. I work out outside so I get a good sweat in. Today it was 85 but felt like 94 with 75% humidity.

I wouldn't recommend working out each day unless you are certain your body can handle it. I've been very physically active for near 10yrs now, so my body is use to the beating. Sounds like you have a good routine figured out!

I've tried to get my fiance to use weights, but she is always concerned that using weights will make her more muscular. I keep trying to tell her that if you keep reps high an weight moderate it will tone, but she doesn't believe me. It has been an uphill battle lol. Regardless, she is lucky because she has a great metabolism and doesn't feel the need to workout.

Send some of that weather this way, it is 94 and feels like 108 haha

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by King Rudi

If I go beyond 1600 kcal/day, I gain fat. Slowly increasing my calories weekly until I get to 2300/day.

I ain't no expert but this is a good place to use Keto or near-keto ...

If you don't know, the theory is, you convert your body from a carbohydrate metabolism to a fat metabolism because carbs are not an essential macronutrient (i.e., you must eat protein and fat, but can live just fine without carbs ever again). There are various protocols to do this, but the easiest is to just eat mostly steak and eggs or equivalents. If you're not "fat adapted" it takes a few weeks for your body to abandon carbs as a fuel, but once it does you feel GREAT! And without counting calories (much) your body fat will simply go away.

Once your body is used to burning fat, any time it sees a calorie deficit it simply taps into your body fat stores with no decrease in your metabolism, performance or gains. It ends the "oh no I'm catabolic!" and no more blood sugar spikes and chugging shakes.

Keto ends the cycles of cutting and bulking and your body is way healthier without the hyperinsulinemia - BUT YMMV, each person is different, blah blah blah

Lots of info out there, but for a natural weight trainer looking for a simple lifestyle, it's hard to beat. This guy has great info if keto is interesting:

Calorie cutting on a carb-based metabolism resets your metabolic set point (1600 in your case) and it's very tough to get out of that cycle (sometimes called "biggest loser syndrome"). Keto gets rid of that.

[King Rudi]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I ain't no expert but this is a good place to use Keto or near-keto ...

If you don't know, the theory is, you convert your body from a carbohydrate metabolism to a fat metabolism because carbs are not an essential macronutrient (i.e., you must eat protein and fat, but can live just fine without carbs). There are various protocols to do this, but the easiest is to just eat mostly steak and eggs or equivalents. If you're not "fat adapted" it takes a few weeks for your body to abandon carbs as a fuel, but once it does you feel GREAT! And without counting calories (much) your body fat will simply go away.

Once your body is used to burning fat, any time it sees a calorie deficit it simply taps into your body fat stores with no decrease in your performance or gains. It ends the "oh no I'm catabolic!" and no more blood sugar spikes and chugging shakes.

Keto ends the cycles of cutting and bulking and your body is way healthier without the hyperinsulinemia - BUT YMMV, each person is different, blah blah blah

Lots of info out there, but for a natural weight trainer looking for a simple lifestyle, it's hard to beat. This guy has great info if keto is interesting:

I'll check it out! Thank you sir! At my age, and with no prior training experience, it goes without saying that I'm a hard gainer. I've battled the losing fat while trying to gain muscle for almost 2 years now. I've seen huge results, but I'm just like everyone else; it doesn't happen fast enough. If it eat more to gain mass, i get fat again. If I cut to lose the fat, I lose the muscle I just built. I have changed up a few things this go around. I only do cardio on my nights off from lifting. I've also learned to start a cut gradually and to begin a bulk gradually.

Coming from 211 in November of 2018 to clocking 132 pounds this morning, the difference in physique is crazy. I'm slowly learning what my body adapts to the best, it's just one of those things that takes time and is trial and error. yes 132 pounds is crazy low, but I'm also 5'9" and have no prior athletic or training background at all. This is all brand new to me. All the muscle that I have is new, so it's just a slow process. The goal is to be around 145-150 and around the 10% bf range. Baby steps.

[JP10]

Originally Posted by King Rudi

I'll check it out! Thank you sir! At my age, and with no prior training experience, it goes without saying that I'm a hard gainer. I've battled the losing fat while trying to gain muscle for almost 2 years now. I've seen huge results, but I'm just like everyone else; it doesn't happen fast enough. If it eat more to gain mass, i get fat again. If I cut to lose the fat, I lose the muscle I just built. I have changed up a few things this go around. I only do cardio on my nights off from lifting. I've also learned to start a cut gradually and to begin a bulk gradually.

Coming from 211 in November of 2018 to clocking 132 pounds this morning, the difference in physique is crazy. I'm slowly learning what my body adapts to the best, it's just one of those things that takes time and is trial and error. yes 132 pounds is crazy low, but I'm also 5'9" and have no prior athletic or training background at all. This is all brand new to me. All the muscle that I have is new, so it's just a slow process. The goal is to be around 145-150 and around the 10% bf range. Baby steps.

Nailed it in what I put in bold. Everyone is different. I'm not sure what I would do in your shoes. Once you're finished your cut, I'd just go into the bulk expecting to gain some weight. The goal is not to get cold feet half way in, then you'll just end up repeating without getting anywhere. Hell, I'd bulk for 8-12weeks, then see where you are at. The weight will come off easier once you've established a solid muscle base.

Regardless, you'll get there eventually. You're already dedicated to your diet and exercise, that is the bulk of the battle. Just like you said, you have to learn what works for your body. Keep after it man!

[King Rudi]

Originally Posted by JP10

Nailed it in what I put in bold. Everyone is different. I'm not sure what I would do in your shoes. Once you're finished your cut, I'd just go into the bulk expecting to gain some weight. The goal is not to get cold feet half way in, then you'll just end up repeating without getting anywhere. Hell, I'd bulk for 8-12weeks, then see where you are at. The weight will come off easier once you've established a solid muscle base.

Regardless, you'll get there eventually. You're already dedicated to your diet and exercise, that is the bulk of the battle. Just like you said, you have to learn what works for your body. Keep after it man!

I learned with my first bulk. I went straight from cutting at 1500 kcal/day to overnight eating 2500/day. I got f'n fat fast! I bulked from March to June at 2500 and saw great results using calisthenics but also put on some fluff. I hate being 132 pounds at the moment, but I also look shredded at this size. I know I won't stay this size long, I just want to keep the belly fat at bay while adding muscle. I've literally gone from my belly hanging over my belt to being so close to having a full on six-pack, the V and obliques. I've gone from being the overweight guy at the gym to the younger hot girls asking me for tips with my ab workouts. I'm happy with the progress I've made, but I'm nowhere near finished.

[JP10]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I ain't no expert but this is a good place to use Keto or near-keto ...

If you don't know, the theory is, you convert your body from a carbohydrate metabolism to a fat metabolism because carbs are not an essential macronutrient (i.e., you must eat protein and fat, but can live just fine without carbs ever again). There are various protocols to do this, but the easiest is to just eat mostly steak and eggs or equivalents. If you're not "fat adapted" it takes a few weeks for your body to abandon carbs as a fuel, but once it does you feel GREAT! And without counting calories (much) your body fat will simply go away.

Once your body is used to burning fat, any time it sees a calorie deficit it simply taps into your body fat stores with no decrease in your metabolism, performance or gains. It ends the "oh no I'm catabolic!" and no more blood sugar spikes and chugging shakes.

Keto ends the cycles of cutting and bulking and your body is way healthier without the hyperinsulinemia - BUT YMMV, each person is different, blah blah blah

Lots of info out there, but for a natural weight trainer looking for a simple lifestyle, it's hard to beat. This guy has great info if keto is interesting:

Calorie cutting on a carb-based metabolism resets your metabolic set point (1600 in your case) and it's very tough to get out of that cycle (sometimes called "biggest loser syndrome"). Keto gets rid of that.

Interesting, never knew that and I've done Keto before. For myself, I've gotten best results keep my carb intake relatively high. My body chomps right through them (I'm talking good carbs not stuffing my face with pancakes or something). Not saying I didn't see any results from Keto, but energy was down in the gym so it was tough to get as good as a workout that I would on carbs. My fiance did keto with me, and it worked great for her. Think she lost 8lbs really quickly doing it. Also became a big fan of zoodles & spaghetti squash through that process haha.

So going back to what I put in bold, does that mean if my caloric intake is 3000 calories, with an extensive amount of carbs, that my metabolic set point would be at 3000? Because that would make a lot of sense, after keeping calories consistent at 3000 for weeks then starting to drop (even slightly) I would usually see a solid bit of weight falling off.

[JP10]

Originally Posted by King Rudi

I learned with my first bulk. I went straight from cutting at 1500 kcal/day to overnight eating 2500/day. I got f'n fat fast! I bulked from March to June at 2500 and saw great results using calisthenics but also put on some fluff. I hate being 132 pounds at the moment, but I also look shredded at this size. I know I won't stay this size long, I just want to keep the belly fat at bay while adding muscle. I've literally gone from my belly hanging over my belt to being so close to having a full on six-pack, the V and obliques. I've gone from being the overweight guy at the gym to the younger hot girls asking me for tips with my ab workouts. I'm happy with the progress I've made, but I'm nowhere near finished.

Fuck it, at your age head to the doctor, get your testosterone checked and say you want to go on TRT. More so a joke, but I think every middle age guy should have blood work done just to see where your numbers are at. If your test is low, it may be the reason it is tough to put on muscle.

Disclaimer: I'm in no way calling you old lol

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by JP10

Not saying I didn't see any results from Keto, but energy was down in the gym so it was tough to get as good as a workout that I would on carbs.

So going back to what I put in bold, does that mean if my caloric intake is 3000 calories, with an extensive amount of carbs, that my metabolic set point would be at 3000?

yeah, the downside to keto is less energy in the gym (because once you burn through your muscle and liver glycogen your liver has to mobilize fat) - though many claim the actual muscle gains are = or > and the overall lifestyle wins, but obviously it's a super individual thing. Plus to really get metabolically settled I think it takes at least 6 months, and to get "medically" settled can take 2 years (i.e., your testing all comes back in range).

Plus when it comes to "weight" we gotta remember that every gram of carb needs X grams of water - this is the "water weight". So people that go on keto immediately pee out all that water as their body burns up those carbs and dumps the water. When I first did keto I lost 10 lbs in 2 days!

If you live near a major city you probably can find a sports clinic that'll do a Dexascan on you for like $150. This is important if you're experimenting with diet because a series will tell you three big things:

* How much muscle do you really have? Are you actually gaining? How much and from what where?
* How much body fat do you have?
* How much visceral fat do you have?

The last one is really important because even ripped dudes can have super low "pinchable" fat, but high visceral fat, the kind around your organs behind your abs that comes from eating too many carbs. This is the deadly fat - it's likely the cause of the skinny-fitness-nut-who-had-a-heart attack stories.

Anyway, on the metabolic set point, yes our bodies like to maintain the weight we're at so if we overeat a little the body turns up the furnace and if we undereat a little the body taps into fat stores. It's why people with a fairly set caloric intake can have that big Thanksgiving meal and not have additional fat a week later.

Resetting a low set point is really tough: you gotta overeat and gain fat to reset. it can be managed but it can be tricky, which is why keto is so much easier for most people, and why the Biggest Loser people always gain back their weight.

To lose body fat, most are usually better off keeping their calories fairly normal and switching to keto.

[Kickee]

Hit some kettle bell front rack split squats yesterday and am still feeling it currently.