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      11-20-2008, 10:17 PM   #23
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ford and GM are NOT closing down there walls any time soon i can guarantee that.. the country won't let giants that stand for american freedom and what can be had here if you work hard and have that unique drive... everything here is way way cheaper than it is in europe.. and people here complain about prices all day long.. people will be ok.. we aren't dieing off yet..i really believe things will turn out ok.. it might take 20 years but some new technology will get our country booming again.. people think bill clinton did such an awesome job but he was at the right place for a technological revolution..he even admitted making a mistake about giving stiff penalties to lenders who don't have a certain amount of sub-prime loans in the housing act he enacted..that is largly why the housing market collapsed yet people don't read and praise the guy.. when democrats tax these companies more it limits there growth.. and the big game guys do give 500million- billions of dollars in taxes.. if you tax companies more than the near 50% they are already getting taxes how the hell are they going to pay there employees.. the work force will take a cut.. and if they don't the company might plummet. but major corporations protect themselves from this and the government has been spending billions trying to recover from this mortgage disaster that happened largely due to the democrats b/c it is there cash cow..go look how much they have gotten from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.. and the people who opened up the retirement funds to the government for use was the democrats.. and jimmy carter got screwed by people abusing his policy which first came up with sub-prime loans in the first place.. it was a good idea that should have had a lot more regulations such as seeing more than 1 paycheck which is how many got a lower rate.. some paychecks are higher.. and i know a guy who got a loan on a better rate b/c he had a huge check b/c of a bunch of over time..it was double his normal amount..and he is a cop..the government made it way way to easy to get a loan and people abused it.. if we just had the auto makers we could handle it with ease.. but this massive bail out is gonna cost us 20 years of war at the rate we are spending in the middle east. and now obama wants to tax capitol gains buy adding an 18% tax on top of the mountain it is.. is he nuts.. so he will not tax our income but he will when we invest it.. which hurts the market..kind of crazy..i hope he changes his mind on that..imagine that day on wallstreet..the 3-6o0 point drops might be peanuts to that
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      11-20-2008, 10:30 PM   #24
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I’m so sick of this crap about the auto execs flying to DC on private jets. I didn't hear one f'ing word about the White Collar Ivy League richboy pansy-ass Wall Streeters flying around in private jets while Congress falls all over itself to bail out a bunch of criminals (who they are in bed with) who re-sold shit loans they should have (and did) know better not to. They did it because they knew if it failed the Feds would bail them out since the loans originated at Government secured Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac.

The CEO of a company as large as GM doesn't have the time (especially when his company is on the verge of collapse) to take a whole 2 days flying back and forth to DC. The CEO travels with a staff so he can conduct business while he travels and take shit from a bunch of useless Congressmen (who get perks out the ass too). It doesn't cost $20K to fly a private jet from Detroit to DC and back. Add in the cost of the other 5 people that travel with him, and hotel and per-diem costs, it probably comes out the same.

The problem with our economy is we don't do ENOUGH manufacturing. The Government has killed the business climate in this country and has driven business away via policy and law. We should be doing all we can to save GM and Ford and do more to help them grow through fair competition.

It's the ignorant ranting of people on this board who perpetuate the mantra the American cars suck. As it was previously stated look at the JD power ratings. Man, if Ford came out with a Mustang that had fuel pump failures on the order that the 335i does, everyone would be calling for the head of the CEO of Ford and label every car in the Ford line up crap. What do we get instead, "oh, but it's a great driving car."

These are two companies who the Government called upon in World War II to help your Fathers and Grandfathers fight a war by building ships, planes, jeeps, trucks, tanks, and guns, now everyone tells them to get fucked. Nice.

Grow up. It's serious shit.
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      11-21-2008, 12:39 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by ENINTY View Post
I’m so sick of this crap about the auto execs flying to DC on private jets. I didn't hear one f'ing word about the White Collar Ivy League richboy pansy-ass Wall Streeters flying around in private jets while Congress falls all over itself to bail out a bunch of criminals (who they are in bed with) who re-sold shit loans they should have (and did) know better not to. They did it because they knew if it failed the Feds would bail them out since the loans originated at Government secured Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac.

The CEO of a company as large as GM doesn't have the time (especially when his company is on the verge of collapse) to take a whole 2 days flying back and forth to DC. The CEO travels with a staff so he can conduct business while he travels and take shit from a bunch of useless Congressmen (who get perks out the ass too). It doesn't cost $20K to fly a private jet from Detroit to DC and back. Add in the cost of the other 5 people that travel with him, and hotel and per-diem costs, it probably comes out the same.

The problem with our economy is we don't do ENOUGH manufacturing. The Government has killed the business climate in this country and has driven business away via policy and law. We should be doing all we can to save GM and Ford and do more to help them grow through fair competition.

It's the ignorant ranting of people on this board who perpetuate the mantra the American cars suck. As it was previously stated look at the JD power ratings. Man, if Ford came out with a Mustang that had fuel pump failures on the order that the 335i does, everyone would be calling for the head of the CEO of Ford and label every car in the Ford line up crap. What do we get instead, "oh, but it's a great driving car."

These are two companies who the Government called upon in World War II to help your Fathers and Grandfathers fight a war by building ships, planes, jeeps, trucks, tanks, and guns, now everyone tells them to get fucked. Nice.

Grow up. It's serious shit.
Well said.

Unfortunately, the Big Three are releasing great cars at a time when the economy is in shambles. People's ignorance isn't going to help them either.
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      11-21-2008, 01:12 AM   #26
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At least Goldman wasn't bailed out. Top execs were getting 1 million plus in bonuses a few months before they went belly up. Fuggin secretaries were making 200k there, bejuses.

I firmly believe the government should not give them one dime unless they have some type of logical plan as to how they will repay the government for said loan. The senator on tv who questioned the 3 execs made me laugh: "You stand before us asking us for 25 billion when all three of you flew here on private jets? What, you guys couldn't 'downgrade' and fly first class?" LOL.

Ford, so some strange reason, never thought it wise to bring the European and Australian vehicles to America. I'd personally consider buying a Focus RS or a Falcon if they were to bring them to the states.
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      11-21-2008, 05:48 AM   #27
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I'm eagerly waiting the arrival of the 3-Series rival from Cadillac (if GM is around to produce it). The reason I own BMWs is because they are such great driving cars (he-he). The BMW attributes stem from having an I-6, manual trans, and rear drive, which allows for a 50/50 weight distribution design. And I do most of my own wrenching so the maintenance and repair are not issues for me.

If GM makes something close at 80% of the price of a BMW, I'd probably get it next time. I looked at the CTS and it's just too big for my tastes. If I were shopping a 5-Series I'd probably go for the Caddy. The new V-Series beats the M5 around the track, which is a huge accomplishment for GM. Quality and reliability-wise GM is on par with BMW, Mercedes, and Audi.

And I'm a former Ford fanatic (I started the Flip-a-Ford club). A 4-door, rear drive, small car from them would be on the list too.

I think we need to look at it that GM and Ford are really trying hard to make a comeback; I'd like to see what they come up with. If we can bailout Wall Street (I wasn't for it by the way-if you couldn't tell) we can certainly help GM and Ford with a smittance of $750 billion dollars. Seems fair to me. Wall Street - $725B, Auto Industry - $25B. Humm...
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      11-21-2008, 07:35 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 742 View Post
NOW is not the issue, THEN retirement was part of the package, and that retirement package was supposed to have been funded while the employees were working.

As an example, my wife works in IT. She could make much more in terms of take home pay working for a beltway bandit, but she works for DoD because the stability and retirement is better. So in 20 years would it be ethical to cancel her retirement benefits?

Freezing the retirement programs is one thing. Taking away credit already earned, and supposedly (and legally required to have been) already paid for by the company is something else.

So who is responsible for underfunding the retirement programs, and why are they not in jail for fraud?
Well said. Commitments made that need to be kept. That could be anyone's parents or grandparents with suddenly no income, and no way forward. If the retirement programs were underfunded, let the companies spend their last dime paying off their guarantee to their employees.
And then, if the companies can keep going, they do.
What a cruel shakeout.
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      11-21-2008, 08:27 AM   #29
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Wow,

Some really thoughtful replies amidst some knee jerking stereotyping. Interesting crowd here.

A re-organization would probably go a long way to making the auto industry more competitive:

- More progressive management that can see beyond SUV’s and V-8 engines
- More flexible labor rules for the Union (to a large degree this has been done).
- Removing the health care burden.

Those are the 3 things Detroit is struggling against, or needs to. I do worry about the last one – where someone has dedicated their entire working life to a company, and then, we – as Americans – say, tough. That pension you worked for in the last 30 years – we are taking it away from you. Doesn’t sound moral (although that is the direction we seem to be going in).

The health care/pension burden is a big thing for a company that has been around 100 years, and is much smaller now than it was 20-30 years ago. That is something that the transplants don’t have to worry about.

It is ironic that Detroit is (finally) building some great world class cars, but the market forces (gas prices, financial industry) are beating it down from all directions.


At this rate we will all end up working at McD’s, and buying from Walmart while all of the manufacturing and IT jobs get outsourced to China and India. Welcome to the 21st century.
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      11-21-2008, 11:18 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ho_grayson View Post
...
down the road, we might see only german and japanese cars on the street that make more affordable to public!

what do yu think?
This comment is completely inaccurate. If the entire US auto industry were to cease to exist, what makes you think cars would become more affordable? Foreign manufacturers based in foreign markets control the industry. I'd expect pricing to increase between 5-15% on each vehicle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Strongmad View Post
First, my inflammatory response, American cars for the most part suck, ergo the big three should go bankrupt due to capitalistic forces.

Now for the real response, if the any or all of the Big 3 go bankrupt and actually stop producing cars, the foreign companies will pick up the slack. Three million people will not be out of a job, they will simply find a better one working for Toyota, Nissan, Hyndai or BMW, all of which have factories in the US.

And simply put, Americans will finally have to stop putting up with the crap that Detroit produces.
Long term: Possibly.
Short term: No. Those factories that Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundai, BMW, MB have in the US operate at a production level in balance with the final market's economy. If those cars are destined for the US (which most are), they're not going to up production just because GM or Chrysler goes under. If one or more of the Big Three goes under, the US economy will suffer (I'm not going to try and say how much, or for how long, but it will be felt). I'd expect to see a slow in production, because sales will drop on all cars.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bsamoul View Post
The Big 3 did something really stupid yesterday when they begged Congress yesterday. They each took private jets out to DC from Michigan costing each of them probably 20k (that they don't have) each just for that. They could have driven or better yet, taken a COMMERCIAL AIRLINER... it's not like I'd recognize that I was sitting next to the president of General Motors anyway..
I've heard this $20k number thrown around for the last two days - and I really question it's accuracy. If the company owns the plane outright (I'm sure they do), and already pay the salary for the flight staff (which they do), then the actual cost are negligible. With a few thousand in fuel cost and wear and tear, I think $5-10k is a more realistic number.
I do agree that taking private planes looked completely irresponsible, at this point, they need to look the part of a company on the verge of disaster. A more responsible choice would have been to use 1 jet for the 3 execs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rrosen View Post
Sadly most people don't really understand the situation. There are many factors but bottom line, this is a very serious issue. On top of that, there are a couple of statements made here that are flat out wrong.

1. US cars are junk: They score higher on the JD Power quality surveys than most foreign cars. Yes, they were bad in the 80s/90s but not today. Drive a Malibu or a Cadillac CTS. You'll be surprised. And most US cars get better gas mileage than the comparable foreign models. (That one surprised me to so I looked it up.)
Exactly, but unfortunately, most people who are not car enthusiast know nothing of JD Power. Therefor they're still clinging to the misconceptions of domestic cars from 10 years ago.

2. Let them fail, we'll be better off: About 1 in 12 jobs today is related to the auto industry. If you think the recession is bad today, what will it be like when 3 million more people or even more are out of work. Can you say depression.
Yep. And people don't seem to realize how far it'll reach. Forget about the direct employees, suppliers, and the dealer network. In the advertising industry alone, the Big Three cover 49% of all automaker spending, and 3.3% of all advertising in the US. This is $4.6 billion. Source.
A loss of this money will see huge job losses in the ad industry. And with less ads supplying their funding, the media sector will be the next to feel the crunch.


3. Foreign manufacturers will take up the slack: They can't turn on a dime either. Will take them some time to up production. But then again, given #2, probably won't be necessary. Given the interdependence of the suppliers too, there may not be parts to even build what they do today.

I'm not saying the loans are the right thing or not, I don't know enough to know. But I do know this is a serious problem and we all better hope someone figures out how to resolve it or we as a country will be in a world of hurt.

And if anyone thinks the US can survive as a purely services economy, I'll leave you with these words: Want fries with that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Staszek View Post
Since when does bankruptcy mean out of business? GM will not be closing the doors and walk away it will restructure.

Personally GM going bankrupt is the best thing that could happen to it. It will give them some breathing room and they can get out of there awful labor contracts that they currently have. This is capitalism and they honestly need to learn how to fail and succeed on there own.

As much as the CEO's have there hands in this problem the labor unions are HUGELY at fault. Put it this way when a wrench turner at GM cost $75 an hour (total costs including benefits pension etc) and that same wrench turner at Toyota USA costs $45 an hour we have a major problem.

Also this whole 1-10 people are connected to the auto industry bs is just propaganda they are including everyone that touches a car ie: carwash, independent mechanics etc. Guess what people have cars now they still need to be washed and fixed.

I have no sympathy for GM , the executives, or the over paid union workers especially when its going to be on my dime to bail them out.

Oh and as a side note I think we need this recession so this country starts building real wealth, not fake credit wealth based on their housing.

No one knows how to save anymore, we really don't produce anything. The economy as it is currently is a sham and it has finally been exposed.
I do agree with some of the things you've said.

The execs at the Big Three need to be canned. The Union contracts are outdated, and pulling the company into its current condition. Neither line-worker, nor CEO deserve the pay/benefits they have.

And +1 on the comment about our nation building true wealth.
This country lives paycheck to paycheck on a false sense of credit. That needs to change. Yes, that means a reality check for much of America; BMW's and Lexus' are turned in for Nissans and Buicks, and million dollar homes become far from the norm. A true sense of worth needs to be established.

But restructuring is not as easy as it sounds.
First, given the credit crisis, how do you propose they acquire the necessary funding to restructure? Also, will people be confident buying a vehicle from a manufacturer recovering from bankruptcy?... if the answer is no, then the restructure will fail.
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      11-21-2008, 01:42 PM   #31
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Obama will solve it, he is going to help everyone change.

We just need to wait till Jan. 2009, and everything will be fine.

I personally want my "spread the wealth around check", and my mortage paid off.

He is also going to put gas in my car.

All is well,,,,,,,Handouts make everything better. Better yet, is not having to work for any of it.

Obama,,, write us the check,, make it all happy again,, Change ....

Thats what we will all end up with,,, change.......
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      11-21-2008, 01:51 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmulax View Post
But restructuring is not as easy as it sounds.
First, given the credit crisis, how do you propose they acquire the necessary funding to restructure?
From the Government?
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      11-21-2008, 02:01 PM   #33
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I don't agree with the fed bailouts of fanny and macky either. As I said, fed have their own issues to deal with. If you are old enought to make your own bed, sleep in it and deal with it yourself.
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      11-21-2008, 02:02 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ENINTY View Post
From the Government?
If the government approves a loan post bankruptcy, that's not much different then a loan approval now - other then breaking the union contracts.

Rather then go into bankruptcy, I'm for the government taking over GM.
Fire the execs, cut product to a core line-up, destroy union contracts (let's face it, they're the only ones strong enough to do this), and rebuild the company into a competitive, flexible, 21st Century manufacturer.
The problem is that this is far to much of a socialist move for most Americans to stomach.
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      11-21-2008, 03:04 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by nmulax View Post
If the government approves a loan post bankruptcy, that's not much different then a loan approval now - other then breaking the union contracts.

Rather then go into bankruptcy, I'm for the government taking over GM.
Fire the execs, cut product to a core line-up, destroy union contracts (let's face it, they're the only ones strong enough to do this), and rebuild the company into a competitive, flexible, 21st Century manufacturer.
The problem is that this is far to much of a socialist move for most Americans to stomach.
I completely agree with this. If we do end up giving them money I want 80% ownership!
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      11-21-2008, 11:06 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmulax View Post
If the government approves a loan post bankruptcy, that's not much different then a loan approval now - other then breaking the union contracts.

Rather then go into bankruptcy, I'm for the government taking over GM.
Fire the execs, cut product to a core line-up, destroy union contracts (let's face it, they're the only ones strong enough to do this), and rebuild the company into a competitive, flexible, 21st Century manufacturer.
The problem is that this is far to much of a socialist move for most Americans to stomach.
You missed my point. His post completed the circle. I'm only for a loan or bailout simply because the Congress (who's approval rating is at 10%) bailed out wall street without even a flinch. The reason they did it is because they are the ones who created the financial crisis through the community reinvestment act. Congress did the same to American industry. Plot the passage of laws to regulate industry vs. the decline of industry in the U.S. and you will find an inverse relationship: the more laws the less industry.

Firing the execs now is stupid. Both GM and Ford have good people running the companies. The cars coming on line are good, the best they've been. Firing the execs will kill the resurgence. Both of them have only been on the job a few years.

The Democrats have to pass an auto bailout bill; if they don't the UAW will get killed in the restructure. The UAW is one of the Dems biggest constituents. No way it's not going to happen. The flip side is that Obama will use this issue to pass National Healthcare, so to relieve the auto companies from health care burdends. So get ready for Socialism. Here it comes. We wanted change...
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