[BMWI6]

Originally Posted by John 070

imho this forum does not really represent what is typical. There really aren't that many (out of the general population) where their parents bought them a BMW. There are trust fund babies, but they are few and far between. Captains of industry do pull in more than 80 mil./year on Wall St., Silicon Valley, etc., but again, few and far between.

Food for thought, if a typical doctor pulls in 300k, do you think he can afford to buy his kid a BMW? Highly unlikely.

We do have two things in the US that I feel contribute to the HS student driving a spanking brand-new BMW--leasing, and shortage of time. Leasing helps keep the cash flow relatively smaller for a big ticket item. If a busy parent has little time to spend with their child because they're working 70+ hours a week, what better way to say I love you kid than to lease them a new car?

p.s. a 21 y.o. high school kid is a loser imho, he should have graduated by 17 or 18

I have to disagree with the 300k a year not being able to buy his kid a BMW. I am 20 by the way, and in my second year in college. I am currently working as an intern for the 5th largest banking institution in the world. So I don't consider myself a complete loser (I would consider myself a winner if I was completely financially independent), but I'm glad to see there are people with higher standards such as yourself.

[Saintor]

When I first saw the E90, I thought that it was a confusing product and less interesting car than my E46... I was wrong.

The only serious issue with BMW is run-flat tires.... just swapped back to them compared to my Yokohama w4s...can't believe how noisy and harsh they are.

[DHS]

Originally Posted by John 070

Point is, a new production Cadillac beat the M5 on a track. BMW showed up with both a manual and SMG, and if I understand it, both lost. If Cadillac is late to the game, how late is the E92 M3 and the next M5? I dunno about most on this forum, but 20 mpg on the highway doesn't really appeal to me. So offer me 12k off a new M3, and I'll pass today, tomorrow, and 5 years from now.

I seriously considered the CTS but to tell the truth there is no comparison. There is much more to a car than track tests.

[PLAYON]

I think there's room for improvement but BMW is and always will be a premiere car manufacturer.

[exidisjon]

I just think there is too many competition and comparsion is why some might feel this way. And maybe the new M didnt live up to the hype comparing to S or AMG. I think all companys have there ups and downs. Never know in few years BMW comes out with some wicked M or massive change in tehre line ups and might be a Upward trend...All mixed with economy,technology and fashion.

[BMWI6]

Originally Posted by exidisjon

I just think there is too many competition and comparsion is why some might feel this way. And maybe the new M didnt live up to the hype comparing to S or AMG. I think all companys have there ups and downs. Never know in few years BMW comes out with some wicked M or massive change in tehre line ups and might be a Upward trend...All mixed with economy,technology and fashion.

I guess you are right, but i think most people seem to think that they are definitively not on the top pf their game now.

[Lassaxi]

Basically, all the whining in this thread can be traced to one general complaint: BMWs are not SO much better than everything else anymore. Guess what: this is the product of other car companies making better cars, not BMW making worse cars. I don't know about you guys, but I like having choices when I buy a car.

Today's BMWs are better in virtually every respect than their predecessor models (except perhaps in weight). The difference is that other car companies are not making junk anymore. The stiffer competition is what makes BMW try new things that some of you like (e.g., the N54 engine), and some of you bitch about (e.g., unconventional styling, RFTs, iDrive, etc..). That's how innovation works.

The only thing that is baffling to me is that it took other car manufacturers so long to figure out how to make a car that competes. There is no magic in BMW's formula for producing great cars. The fact that no one else could (or would) match that formula until recently does not mean that BMW is on a downward trend. It means that the competition is getting stiffer.

Should BMW respond by raising the bar? Sure. But to truly raise the bar, BMW will have to tinker with the formula. And someone will always complain when BMW tinkers with the formula. Of course, there'll also be plenty of people who couldn't care less as long as there's a sweet aero kit, 20" rims still fit and they can beat that kid at school with the Evo.

Some of you are probably too new to this forum to remember, but in the early days of the E90, people complained left and right about how the E90 was so much "softer" than the E46, how the "classic european lines" were lost, how the E90 would flop just like the E60 (which actually never did flop), and basically how armageddon was right around the corner. Then the 335 came out. And suddenly, with 300hp and 300 ft-lbs of torque, few people seemed to miss their old E46s.

This is all a long way of saying, no, BMW is not on a downward trend. Others are simply catching up. It's easy to emulate, but difficult to innovate. The only thing that's surprising is that BMW has held on to the lead for this long.

[josephr25]

Originally Posted by Lassaxi

Basically, all the whining in this thread can be traced to one general complaint: BMWs are not SO much better than everything else anymore. Guess what: this is the product of other car companies making better cars, not BMW making worse cars. I don't know about you guys, but I like having choices when I buy a car.

Today's BMWs are better in virtually every respect than their predecessor models (except perhaps in weight). The difference is that other car companies are not making junk anymore. The stiffer competition is what makes BMW try new things that some of you like (e.g., the N54 engine), and some of you bitch about (e.g., unconventional styling, RFTs, iDrive, etc..). That's how innovation works.

The only thing that is baffling to me is that it took other car manufacturers so long to figure out how to make a car that competes. There is no magic in BMW's formula for producing great cars. The fact that no one else could (or would) match that formula until recently does not mean that BMW is on a downward trend. It means that the competition is getting stiffer.

Should BMW respond by raising the bar? Sure. But to truly raise the bar, BMW will have to tinker with the formula. And someone will always complain when BMW tinkers with the formula. Of course, there'll also be plenty of people who couldn't care less as long as there's a sweet aero kit, 20" rims still fit and they can beat that kid at school with the Evo.

Some of you are probably too new to this forum to remember, but in the early days of the E90, people complained left and right about how the E90 was so much "softer" than the E46, how the "classic european lines" were lost, how the E90 would flop just like the E60 (which actually never did flop), and basically how armageddon was right around the corner. Then the 335 came out. And suddenly, with 300hp and 300 ft-lbs of torque, few people seemed to miss their old E46s.

This is all a long way of saying, no, BMW is not on a downward trend. Others are simply catching up. It's easy to emulate, but difficult to innovate. The only thing that's surprising is that BMW has held on to the lead for this long.

You are correct in almost all cases... but you are taking into account only true car enthusiasts. There are a grip of people who buy "just for the name" regardless if the competition is faster, cheaper, or more luxurious. Come to southern California and see for yourself. I am guessing this is where BMW tries to accomodate the lowest common denominator.

[ManMachine]

I have to admit that I didn't even know that there was an E46 CSL.

BMW knows that there's a strong enthusiast following, and it probably is satisfied with the aftermarket mods that people can do for their cars. However, creating MX5 (which by the way is the Mazda Miata) and MX6 doesn't make a lot of sense. The volume will be just way too low, even for emerging markets like China.

In general I think BMW is doing fine. The world is getting more and more crowded, so fuel efficiency and sport really need to go together.

[stressdoc]

Although I fondly remember my 1602ti & 2002tii, IMO the 335i is one of the best cars ever. Ditto for the 320d. Looking forward to the Z2, 2400 lbs w/ 272 bhp turbo 4 cyl.

[Lassaxi]

Originally Posted by Kampfer

You are correct in almost all cases... but you are taking into account only true car enthusiasts. There are a grip of people who buy "just for the name" regardless if the competition is faster, cheaper, or more luxurious. Come to southern California and see for yourself. I am guessing this is where BMW tries to accomodate the lowest common denominator.

But that can't be right. If BMW is just peddling to the lowest common denominator, there would be no reason to develop something like the N54 engine. If all BMW wanted to do was maximize profitabilty on sales to people who care only about badge, they wouldn't have completely re-engineered the chassis and suspension for the E90 or developed the N54 engine. They did those things because they have to keep ahead of (or at least up with) the competition as the competition keeps inproving their performance cred.

[BMWI6]

Originally Posted by Lassaxi

Basically, all the whining in this thread can be traced to one general complaint: BMWs are not SO much better than everything else anymore. Guess what: this is the product of other car companies making better cars, not BMW making worse cars. I don't know about you guys, but I like having choices when I buy a car.

Today's BMWs are better in virtually every respect than their predecessor models (except perhaps in weight). The difference is that other car companies are not making junk anymore. The stiffer competition is what makes BMW try new things that some of you like (e.g., the N54 engine), and some of you bitch about (e.g., unconventional styling, RFTs, iDrive, etc..). That's how innovation works.

The only thing that is baffling to me is that it took other car manufacturers so long to figure out how to make a car that competes. There is no magic in BMW's formula for producing great cars. The fact that no one else could (or would) match that formula until recently does not mean that BMW is on a downward trend. It means that the competition is getting stiffer.

Should BMW respond by raising the bar? Sure. But to truly raise the bar, BMW will have to tinker with the formula. And someone will always complain when BMW tinkers with the formula. Of course, there'll also be plenty of people who couldn't care less as long as there's a sweet aero kit, 20" rims still fit and they can beat that kid at school with the Evo.

Some of you are probably too new to this forum to remember, but in the early days of the E90, people complained left and right about how the E90 was so much "softer" than the E46, how the "classic european lines" were lost, how the E90 would flop just like the E60 (which actually never did flop), and basically how armageddon was right around the corner. Then the 335 came out. And suddenly, with 300hp and 300 ft-lbs of torque, few people seemed to miss their old E46s.

This is all a long way of saying, no, BMW is not on a downward trend. Others are simply catching up. It's easy to emulate, but difficult to innovate. The only thing that's surprising is that BMW has held on to the lead for this long.

I have to agree with you in many respects, but I will also disagree with you on several things. First off, saying that new BMW's are better than their predecessors in every respect is irrelevant as a measure for this debate. Sure the cars have more power and are safer, but this is only because the entire car industry and the world itself is more technologically advanced now. The real measure of progress for a company on the lead like BMW is how much better their cars are than the competition, and now their cars are not MUCH better than the competition so the gap is closing. Are people going to pay the BMW premium price for long? These are all questions that we must ask ourselves and answer ourselves as-well. For me, performance and not luxury is what made BMW what it is, so when my 335 doesnt feel as rugged as my e46 330i zhp, then i start to wonder what is going on. Sure the 335i is faster, but the chassis and other components don't feel as sporty, and for me this is when the magic is lost. If BMW wants to satisfy the masses, thats fine. But at least offer zhp or equivalent models on all of their models so that us looking for that extra performance edge can get it. Even mercedes does that with the c-klasse sport and luxury models; and it is known to be luxury car company.

[Raja Ventureshield]

i think we should just cut their nut but not buying any cars at all for 09.
if they think the north american is not an important market then we should show them as well. Yes, China/India all the new developing countries are the new attention, but they are no where near what we purchase from them, so why neglect the good market segment to move into the smaller market segment? looks like the 80/20 rule. where they have the 80% and focus on getting the 20% outstanding. In the process neglects what they already have, the 80%... booo.

[Palbay]

Originally Posted by Pedal2Floor

First off, a BMW has never been about HP. The Big 3 have always been about HP -- thus the retro Mustang, Camaro and Challenger.

In the past, the belief is that one needed a high horse power halo car....that was the past. In today's Wall Street Journal Report they reported the Chrysler is going to nix the Viper and is looking for a buyer for the brand and said that GM will follow suit with stopping some models of the Vette. The next halo car is the one that can deliver the highest MPG -- GM is late to the game with the CTS-V -- its now all about the Volt and which car will deliver the best MPG -- at least for the US and European markets.

The auto world is changing -- it is a race to see who is more "green" and who can deliver the highest MPG. The green army is taking over and it is changing the agenda -- The Detroit Big 3 needs a bailout, in return for that bailout whoever is next in office is going to force them to develop some type of stupid plug-in or hybrid -- it will be all about the MPG.

Enthusiasts in the US and EU will have to take a back seat.

Fantastic,fantastic understanding of where the international auto business is heading.I started a thread over at the X6 Forum entitled "Hug Your V8".My point...and I hate to hear myself say this is...the true enthusiast are the ones on the short end of the debate.My point on the X6 thread was we are going to need to go to museums to look at high performance auto's in the future.The entrance fee will go to fund "green moped" research.It is a sad day we are approaching.True enthusiast are the only ones that can try and change things.The masses only want something to get them from point A to point B....and btw does it get 40MPG.There are way more of them than us.The Major Auto companies (including BMW) are to PC and chickenshit to really try and stop the global shift.BMW can sell a lot more 4 banger 1 or 3 Series than V8 3-5-7 Series and hopped up X vehicles.I hate losing the ability to choose.I think the horse is out of the barn.True High Performance Sporty Autos will become the domain of the ultra rich.....hand built $300k cars...maybe not even supercars...once what was the equivalent of M3s and M5s. And add a gas guzzler/carbon tax on top of that.... and they are off limits to the average enthusiast.It makes you want to cry I would hope this would be "what if" banter on a car forum....Unfortunately,I think we are not to many years away from this scenario.I hope BMW proves me wrong!!!! Thanks! PalBay

[Lassaxi]

Originally Posted by BMWI6

IFirst off, saying that new BMW's are better than their predecessors in every respect is irrelevant as a measure for this debate. Sure the cars have more power and are safer, but this is only because the entire car industry and the world itself is more technologically advanced now. The real measure of progress for a company on the lead like BMW is how much better their cars are than the competition, and now their cars are not MUCH better than the competition so the gap is closing. Are people going to pay the BMW premium price for long? These are all questions that we must ask ourselves and answer ourselves as-well.

I understand what you're saying, and to a certain extent this is exactly my point: the reason the gap is closing is not because BMW is making worse cars, it's because others are making better cars. More specifically, I think you've touched on two issues that BMW is facing:

(1) we are getting closer and closer to the technological limit of what can be done with traditional engine, suspension and chassis designs, which means that it will be harder and harder for BMW to squeeze greater performance out of a traditional BMW design. Now, that doesn't mean that further progress is impossible, but it means that for significant progress to occur, things like the MacPherson strut and the straight six ICE are ultimtely going to have to yield to more sophisticated designs. When that happens the driving dynamics of the car will change. Some will find them to be better, and some worse. But they will change, and they will probably take some getting used to when they do.

(2) while it is getting harder and harder to squeeze significant performance improvements out of existing mechanical technologies, it is getting easier and easier for others to closely approximate BMW's current driving dynamics with existing technologies. This means, as you've correctly noted, that the premium that BMW charges for its product is going to be increasingly difficult for the market to support, unless they can really up the ante. I am confident that they can do it, but they do have to keep people happy in the process because, after all, everyone has to pay the bills.

For me, performance and not luxury is what made BMW what it is, so when my 335 doesnt feel as rugged as my e46 330i zhp, then i start to wonder what is going on. Sure the 335i is faster, but the chassis and other components don't feel as sporty, and for me this is when the magic is lost. If BMW wants to satisfy the masses, thats fine. But at least offer zhp or equivalent models on all of their models so that us looking for that extra performance edge can get it. Even mercedes does that with the c-klasse sport and luxury models; and it is known to be luxury car company.

I don't disagree that an optional ZHP would be a good thing. But, as you yourself have pointed out, not everyone is a performance enthusiast, and, even among those who are, not all of them buy BMWs looking for sports cars.

I'm not terribly brand conscious about my cars. For me, a BMW is what it is. Right now, I think a 3er's magic is that it has the best balance of performance, luxury, utility, and price on the market. I don't think a 3er is the best performing car on the road, and I don't think it ever has been. I don't think it's the most luxurious car on the road, and I don't think it ever has been. I just think the balance is in the right place. And, when another manufacturer makes a car that balances performance, luxury, utility and price in a place that meets my desires better than a BMW does, I'll stop buying BMWs.

[Davin]

Originally Posted by Pedal2Floor

No, I believe that the only thing that is starting to happen is that the North American market is no longer as important.

Brazil, Russia, India and China as well as other emerging markets are more important. What may not appeal to you, is working well in other markets and since these are world cars, these car appeal to more than just the US market which has always been different.

You are going to see more and more of this in other areas as well. Everything from computers, home electronics, cameras and other items. There is more growth outside of the US and Europe.

GM and Volkswagon already sell more cars outside of their main markets than they have ever done before. Sony and Samsung has TVs with features that will never make it to the US.

The US Debt load will mean many consumers are going to be looking for either nothing or cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap -- so that is what we are going to get.

BMW has already announced that they are going to make leasing less attractive and instead of a push model they are going to offer more of a pull model for the US. You are going to see the same from Audi and MB as well. You will see more German autos being made in the US but fewer features than you would find in other areas. The push to be "green" and remove dependency on foreign energy sources will also change the make of the cars here -- so what is the point of the CSL in that type of environment? The X cars are big sellers in the BRIC countries -- what they are doing makes sense from a business perspective.

Call it a cycle call it a trend, this is the way it will be for the foreseable future.

So, from a US centric view, it may look like a downward trend, from a world view it is a just a shift in focus and many in the US better be prepared for the fact that the US is not as important as it once was and focus will be more towards emerging markets. Money and resources always flow to where they can best work. The world has become flat making that movement even faster from less efficient markets to more efficient markets.

Things will not change in the US until they get rid of their Uber Debt and things will not change in Europe until they lower their gross over taxing.

What you will see in the US is fewer options and fewer models of all goods with less leasing and financing to more outright purchasing of cheaper lower featured lower quality goods until we get out from under the massive debt load.

Not sure how it is where you work, but the company I work for is 100% focused on markets outside of the US right now.

This is true. I believe this

[Davin]

I think other companies are able to keep up with them which is why it may seem so. They took pointers from BMW in the 90's when they were top of the line. IMO

[SDTopless]

anybody else think bmw materials might b getting to feel a bit cheaper?