[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by deutsch100

Ohio makes California seem amazing though!!

Having registered cars in Ohio, Kentucky and California, I’d say California is the worst. What a racket. Eventually managed to get my college son’s car registered and insured in KY without it leaving LA. Kentucky has the vehicle property tax of ~1.5% of book value of the car each year you register. So I’ve probably paid close to $3k in taxes over the course of 5 years on my G30. When I lived in Ohio years ago there was just the ~$30 annual registration fee, which may have changed.

[MikeElmendorf]

To be fair, the idea here is that EVs and hybrids are not paying the same user fee for roads and bridges that traditional vehicles are—namely, the gas tax.

As electric and hybrid vehicles increase in their prevalence, revenue streams for maintaining public infrastructure (which is also disproportionately impacted by much heavier EVs) are declining and the long-term trends there are unsustainable if we really are going to transition to an EV future.

I’d much rather just pay a registration fee or a vehicle mile tax or higher taxes on charging.

As they say, no one rides for free.

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by MikeElmendorf

To be fair, the idea here is that EVs and hybrids are not paying the same user fee for roads and bridges that traditional vehicles are—namely, the gas tax.

As electric and hybrid vehicles increase in their prevalence, revenue streams for maintaining public infrastructure (which is also disproportionately impacted by much heavier EVs) are declining and the long-term trends there are unsustainable if we really are going to transition to an EV future.

I’d much rather just pay a registration fee or a vehicle mile tax or higher taxes on charging.

As they say, no one rides for free.

One way or another the government is going to find a way to continue the revenue stream.

[ToddRGuy]

Originally Posted by MikeElmendorf

To be fair, the idea here is that EVs and hybrids are not paying the same user fee for roads and bridges that traditional vehicles are—namely, the gas tax.

As electric and hybrid vehicles increase in their prevalence, revenue streams for maintaining public infrastructure (which is also disproportionately impacted by much heavier EVs) are declining and the long-term trends there are unsustainable if we really are going to transition to an EV future.

I’d much rather just pay a registration fee or a vehicle mile tax or higher taxes on charging.

As they say, no one rides for free.

I’d agree with Ohio’s decision to add a fee if it weren’t equivalent to 395 gallons of gasoline a year for a PHEV or 526 gallons a year for a BEV. If you’re a low mileage driver it’s a penalty fee at that point. Low mileage ICE owners easily overcome their $31 registration fees. Would much rather they opted for a mileage tax, or at least provided people with an “either/or” option.

Assuming a 30mph mixed efficiency, BEV owners pay for the equivalent of 15,780 miles of “road tax” per year. Interestingly, after creating these fees, Ohio’s gas tax revenues have not fallen as the State’s BEV ownership has risen.

[Frupal]

They are thinking of doing this in CA as well. The reason is that since BEVs weigh at least a thousand pounds more than comparable ICE vehicles, they cause much more wear and tear on the roads. And they don't pay the gas tax. Fair? Maybe. Maybe not. But now that one state has implemented it, you can bet that others will soon follow.

[MikeElmendorf]

The most fair way would be a vehicle mile tax that everyone pays with registration or tax filing. But it is wildly unpopular, and for understandable reasons relating to privacy, "big brother" concerns. That's why a number of jurisdictions are looking at EV registration fees.

No one has really figured this out yet, but it is a concern as much of our infrastructure ages and deteriorates and the historic mechanism to fund much of it heads for obsolescence.

[rgw]

Originally Posted by MikeElmendorf

The most fair way would be a vehicle mile tax that everyone pays with registration or tax filing. But it is wildly unpopular, and for understandable reasons relating to privacy, "big brother" concerns. That's why a number of jurisdictions are looking at EV registration fees.

No one has really figured this out yet, but it is a concern as much of our infrastructure ages and deteriorates and the historic mechanism to fund much of it heads for obsolescence.

An idea I've heard floated in research circles - but I don't think has any real political traction - is leveraging the GPS and cellular radios to phone home to transit authorities the utilization "meter reading" so to speak. I think governments would have to be pretty desperate to approach this concept because citizens would hate feeling, rightly, that the government is tracking all their movements.

I think forking out 100 or more for PHEV and 300 for EV vehicles is a simpler implementation for state governments and far less invasive for citizens. The problem is a lot of lower income drivers are going to struggle to afford these upfront costs at registration time. However the US transportation infrastructure is largely reliant on personally-owned vehicle. Furthermore, the US is significantly behind other countries on building out mass transit that adequately connects rural areas to commerce hubs much less just getting someone from their residence to basic needs in town.

So this taxation heartburn is just annoying to us, the type of people who can afford new luxury imports from Germany. Eventually it is going to come to the car buyer who just got a Nissan Sentra EV on 84mo term so they can drive from some considerable distance to work.

[ToddRGuy]

Originally Posted by MikeElmendorf

The most fair way would be a vehicle mile tax that everyone pays with registration or tax filing. But it is wildly unpopular, and for understandable reasons relating to privacy, "big brother" concerns. That's why a number of jurisdictions are looking at EV registration fees.

No one has really figured this out yet, but it is a concern as much of our infrastructure ages and deteriorates and the historic mechanism to fund much of it heads for obsolescence.

I don’t think I’d be objectionable to reporting my annual mileage to my State for road tax purposes, but definitely wouldn’t want them logging every trip I made. I tried that once (recently) for an insurance discount and was miserable. Never again. What’s the point of buying a higher performance vehicle if you can’t on occasion drive spiritedly.

[ToddRGuy]

Originally Posted by rgw

An idea I've heard floated in research circles - but I don't think has any real political traction - is leveraging the GPS and cellular radios to phone home to transit authorities the utilization "meter reading" so to speak. I think governments would have to be pretty desperate to approach this concept because citizens would hate feeling, rightly, that the government is tracking all their movements.

I think forking out 100 or more for PHEV and 300 for EV vehicles is a simpler implementation for state governments and far less invasive for citizens. The problem is a lot of lower income drivers are going to struggle to afford these upfront costs at registration time. However the US transportation infrastructure is largely reliant on personally-owned vehicle. Furthermore, the US is significantly behind other countries on building out mass transit that adequately connects rural areas to commerce hubs much less just getting someone from their residence to basic needs in town.

So this taxation heartburn is just annoying to us, the type of people who can afford new luxury imports from Germany. Eventually it is going to come to the car buyer who just got a Nissan Sentra EV on 84mo term so they can drive from some considerable distance to work.

Very well said. Quite frankly we’re 35 Trillion in debt, and I’m no so sure we have a tremendous amount to show for it. It would be more tangible to everyone if we had pristine highways, modern (safe) bridges, complex long distance high speed bullet trains, ect. But our infrastructure is in desperate decline and rotting from the inside out.

[CaboM4]

Originally Posted by jcal65

Have you received your annual insurance policy renewal yet, I did?

My M550 jumped drastically to $3,333.00 per year (100/300 $1,000 deductible 3,500 mi/yr personal use) due to “higher repair costs, repair part shortages and lack of repair centers” according to my insurance company, AAA. I was told rate increases have affected German cars the most. I have had insurance through AAA since 1989 and have every discount available, a clean driving record and no accidents.

I called yesterday to get a quote on insurance for an i5 and was quoted $3,890.00/year for the same use as my M550. Another reason these cars are not flying off the lot.

I have started looking at other carriers, but switching is not an easy thing to do in California since most major insurance companies will not take on new policies for auto and home now.

Before you buy or lease in California, I suggest you check the insurance cost first, if it is a concern.

That absolutely insane! I pay less than that for all of my vehicles combined for a 12 month policy! (2023 iX M60, 2023 i7 x60, 2024 Silverado 1500 High Country & 2023 BMW R18B). I have $500 deductible and highest limits available.

While NJ sucks, I'm glad i'm not in Cali!

[CaboM4]

Originally Posted by rgw

An idea I've heard floated in research circles - but I don't think has any real political traction - is leveraging the GPS and cellular radios to phone home to transit authorities the utilization "meter reading" so to speak.

There's no chance in hell I'm allowing anyone to "monitor" my driving. I would be in jail by now if they did

[AiredaleDad]

Originally Posted by CaboM4

There's no chance in hell I'm allowing anyone to "monitor" my driving. I would be in jail by now if they did

Probably me too. I have a lead right foot. That's why I never tried to use those Insurance mileage trackers. They would probably drop me. if you are a veteran or family of a veteran see if you can join USAA. They have excellent insurance rates, they even have overseas insurance. Also you can get a Non-Owner policy that is about $28 a year, and covers ANY vehicle you drive in the USA. Rented, Borrowed, etc. As long as you don't own it. That way when you return to the states you don't get dinged for "Not having insurance in the USA for X Years", and get put in the High Risk category. GEICO did that to me years ago. Prompted me to switch to USAA.

[ToddRGuy]

Originally Posted by AiredaleDad

Probably me too. I have a lead right foot. That's why I never tried to use those Insurance mileage trackers. They would probably drop me. if you are a veteran or family of a veteran see if you can join USAA. They have excellent insurance rates, they even have overseas insurance. Also you can get a Non-Owner policy that is about $28 a year, and covers ANY vehicle you drive in the USA. Rented, Borrowed, etc. As long as you don't own it. That way when you return to the states you don't get dinged for "Not having insurance in the USA for X Years", and get put in the High Risk category. GEICO did that to me years ago. Prompted me to switch to USAA.

I did the app tracking with Hartford for a year. I was miserable. The app bitched about everything. You accelerated to hard, you braked suddenly, you took that turn too fast. Never again.

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by ToddRGuy

I did the app tracking with Hartford for a year. I was miserable. The app bitched about everything. You accelerated to hard, you braked suddenly, you took that turn too fast. Never again.

Imagine this if you tracked your car at a club HPDE. There were rumors years ago that Nissan would void the warranty on your GT-R if tracked it, because they would know from GPS if you’d taken on a track. No thanks.

[Blue Sky]

Did I ever tell the story about how OnStar tracked C6 Corvette drivers? There were two instances, one where somebody did a high speed run in the middle of nowhere in rural Canada, and got an irate phone call from OnStar within a few minutes. The other, almost too good to believe, but was apparently legit was that another C6 driver got the call while on the track dressed in nomex, gloves and helmet doing laps, while the operator berated them for driving way too fast. I wasn’t saavy enough to have exercised my right to order the car without OnStar, but I disconnect the antenna right away after reading about that

[ToddRGuy]

Originally Posted by tsbrown

Imagine this if you tracked your car at a club HPDE. There were rumors years ago that Nissan would void the warranty on your GT-R if tracked it, because they would know from GPS if you’d taken on a track. No thanks.

Did people unknowingly sign some agreement when they purchased it that allowed Nissan to do that?! If not, it’s a wonder they weren’t sued 7 ways from Sunday.

[ToddRGuy]

Originally Posted by TLK

Did I ever tell the story about how OnStar tracked C6 Corvette drivers? There were two instances, one where somebody did a high speed run in the middle of nowhere in rural Canada, and got an irate phone call from OnStar within a few minutes. The other, almost too good to believe, but was apparently legit was that another C6 driver got the call while on the track dressed in nomex, gloves and helmet doing laps, while the operator berated them for driving way too fast. I wasn’t saavy enough to have exercised my right to order the car without OnStar, but I disconnect the antenna right away after reading about that

That just unreal. I’d be telling the OnStar representative to…well, I think you know. lol

[AiredaleDad]

Originally Posted by TLK

Did I ever tell the story about how OnStar tracked C6 Corvette drivers? There were two instances, one where somebody did a high speed run in the middle of nowhere in rural Canada, and got an irate phone call from OnStar within a few minutes. The other, almost too good to believe, but was apparently legit was that another C6 driver got the call while on the track dressed in nomex, gloves and helmet doing laps, while the operator berated them for driving way too fast. I wasn’t saavy enough to have exercised my right to order the car without OnStar, but I disconnect the antenna right away after reading about that

Do they really think that someone is going to buy a car like these, or a C6 Corvette etc.....and drive all the time like they are taking Grandma to Church on Sunday???? I hate BB watching.

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by ToddRGuy

Did people unknowingly sign some agreement when they purchased it that allowed Nissan to do that?! If not, it’s a wonder they weren’t sued 7 ways from Sunday.

Don’t know. As I said, there were rumors, so not confirmed. But if a manufacturer wanted to deny warranty coverage for something that was outside normal use (in their opinion) they could. Surprisingly this rumor was on a car engineered and marketed to be faster than a 911. When I had my E90 M3, my dealer service advisor welcomed my HPDE pre-event inspection and prep service and replaced brakes that wore faster because of the track weekends. Probably still would. But who wants big brother looking in on you?

[AiredaleDad]

Originally Posted by tsbrown

Don’t know. As I said, there were rumors, so not confirmed. But if a manufacturer wanted to deny warranty coverage for something that was outside normal use (in their opinion) they could. Surprisingly this rumor was on a car engineered and marketed to be faster than a 911. When I had my E90 M3, my dealer service advisor welcomed my HPDE pre-event inspection and prep service and replaced brakes that wore faster because of the track weekends. Probably still would. But who wants big brother looking in on you?

I would think it would have to be something that was specifically caused by the (Outside normal) Use. I don't think they could deny repairing A/C because the car was tracked.