[RM7]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It's a re-bodied Camry. What did you expect?

I think this has always made the ES a difficult proposition for Lexus. The people that go with it are probably looking for comfort and numbness and unable to afford an LS and thinking this is the next best thing at Lexus. Being based on the Camry chassis (supposedly at one point it got it's own chassis I thought?) it's just not very special or taken to any kind of extreme, such as extreme luxury, or extreme performance, etc. The IS and GS have always been the more sporty cars, the LS the more luxury car. What is in-between? Something that is either the best of both worlds...or the worst. IMO, you would go into the ES knowing it is going to be about the numbest experience you could have.

Lexus also seems to "choose" where to compete, like they will at times position their top end luxury model against 7 series and S class sedans...but they won't be competing across their line and offering equivalent models like BMW, Audi and MB do.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

During the course of my ownership I serviced at four different dealerships depending on where I lived at the time. I was consistently treated well by Lexus service dept. Fair prices, accommodating service, loaner cars generally available, and one dealer would even take videos giving a walkthrough of what work was done and how the rest of the car is faring. And yes peace of mind was such a nice luxury to have.

The BMW dealership in Sterling Virginia now sends you a video from the tech servicing your car on all the upsell shit they want you to get taken care of. On my E90, I had it in for an alignment after I put the suspension back to its stock Msport factory suspension (swapped from the Bilstein B8/H&R I put in 80,000 miles prior). Also to get the heater valve recall completed. This was April of this year. The AC seemed to be acting up and I wanted the dealer to check the pressures. The video I got back, a walk around while its on the lift, showed a dripping radiator, needed new tires, which was obvious since I was going to get tires AFTER the new suspension and alignment*, a leaking trans output seal (no, it is the shift shaft seal...). I'm not sure if they checked the AC.

So I got the car back, alignment completed, and recall done. At home I put the car up on my lift, re-crimped the lower radiator side-tank clamps (POS aftermarket radiator...), and removed the fan to do that. Diagnosing the AC later that week with my scan tool, I discovered the cooling fan was not operating. The signal wire had corroded through and broke. Completely missed by the tech. I missed it to at first even after pulling the connector... LOL.

*Told me to do the alignment properly it needed new tires first (Christ). Useless crap.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

I was going to post just this. The reality is that this is a repurposed Camry so this car is starting from a place beneath a 3 Series. Toyota has generated its reputation on reliability by keeping things simple and stretching out technology for decades. You don't buy these for the best in luxury or performance. You buy them as a drive it and forget it vehicle and in that usage it succeeds.

I have a friend who had a '03 or '06 Camry. I took a ride in it at some point a few years ago when it was north of 170,000 miles. Now he does have kids, but the suspension was trash, the interior worn out, and it had recently lost the water pump, and some coolant hoses. My BMW of the same vintage with over double the miles of his Camry at the time, was in far better shape.

I've never been impressed with anything Toyota.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I have a friend who had a '03 or '06 Camry. I took a ride in it at some point a few years ago when it was north of 170,000 miles. Now he does have kids, but the suspension was trash, the interior worn out, and it had recently lost the water pump, and some coolant hoses. My BMW of the same vintage with over double the miles of his Camry at the time, was in far better shape.

I've never been impressed with anything Toyota.

Is your friend a car person? Is your friend to type to get a shop to replace parts with the shittest grade replacements rather than OEM parts? Or even bother to do any maintainance? Comparing yourself, an enthusiast, to a normal joe isn't really fair. Everyone has their own priorities, cars are not for a lot of people and is fine with something that will get them from A to B.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I have a friend who had a '03 or '06 Camry. I took a ride in it at some point a few years ago when it was north of 170,000 miles. Now he does have kids, but the suspension was trash, the interior worn out, and it had recently lost the water pump, and some coolant hoses. My BMW of the same vintage with over double the miles of his Camry at the time, was in far better shape.

I've never been impressed with anything Toyota.

Toyota's aren't infallible. They break down just like other vehicles. In general they have less issues but that's really due to a calculated approach of carrying over dated powertrains and technology from generation to generation while focusing on tech such as safety. My father in-law has a 2020 RAV4 and IMO it's an extremely mediocre vehicle that doesn't separate itself from anything the Koreans do. The 2.5L engine is extremely unrefined. I don't recall an engine this buzzy and noisy since driving a VQ37 in the 370Z. I will give them props for incorporating a proper automatic transmission and not resorting to a CVT but I feel bad for people that are paying MSRP on these thinking they got a state of the art new Toyota because in reality they overpaid for merely a competitive vehicle in it's class.

[W///]

Originally Posted by kyriian

Is your friend a car person? Is your friend to type to get a shop to replace parts with the shittest grade replacements rather than OEM parts? Or even bother to do any maintainance? Comparing yourself, an enthusiast, to a normal joe isn't really fair. Everyone has their own priorities, cars are not for a lot of people and is fine with something that will get them from A to B.

Completely agreed. If the guy washed the car with a broom and the interior was cleaned with the cheapest cleaner every 5 years, then yea no car is going to hold up well.

If the Camry made it to 170k miles with only a water pump change and in need for new shocks, then I think it's done its job admirably. I love BMW's, but I know of no cooling systems that I'd trust completely at 170k (small price to pay for fun cars though).

Personally, I swear by Toyotas, especially their trucks and SUV's. I've owned a 97 4Runner with 300k+ miles, as well as a 16 Tundra with "only" 86k miles and they were super tough, not to mention they cost peanuts to maintain and repair.

[dscabra]

My wife is on her third Lexus RX and she won't even look at anything else now. The vast majority of Lexus owners are not driving enthusiasts, but rather those that want a step above the average in status, comfort, and reliability. People drive a Lexus to be comfortable, not stimulated. Of course, there are exceptions as with all things, and Lexus does cater to the enthusiasts with their F-Sport and top-tier models, much like BMW caters to budget conscious buyers that simply want the status the brand brings without necessarily spending the money on the high-performance end of the offerings. Having started my BMW ownership with a bare-bones 328i and being provided very basic 320i examples as loaners, there is a huge difference from those to the fully-loaded M550i I'm driving today.

[jnj2455]

My parents had a '95 Camry purchased new that I grew up around. I shamefully will admit that when it got the point where it was relegated to family beater, I tried do all the stupid shit a curious teenager would try to on an old car. I kept it in first gear and drove like 15 miles redlining the engine trying to see if I could cook the engine, I slammed it into reverse and park going 40mph forward, poured a few liquids into the gas or oil filler, etc.

Long and short of it, it didn't die lol. However, I'm also of the opinion that Japanese-bubble era Toyotas and all its counterparts were the best they ever will offer and likely will never match again. Kinda like the old Mercedes of yore, designed to a standard, not to a $ bottom line.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by dscabra

My wife is on her third Lexus RX and she won't even look at anything else now. The vast majority of Lexus owners are not driving enthusiasts, but rather those that want a step above the average in status, comfort, and reliability. People drive a Lexus to be comfortable, not stimulated. Of course, there are exceptions as with all things, and Lexus does cater to the enthusiasts with their F-Sport and top-tier models, much like BMW caters to budget conscious buyers that simply want the status the brand brings without necessarily spending the money on the high-performance end of the offerings. Having started my BMW ownership with a bare-bones 328i and being provided very basic 320i examples as loaners, there is a huge difference from those to the fully-loaded M550i I'm driving today.

Yeah my wife had a couple of RX's before hopping into the X5. She was dead set on getting a 3rd RX but I convinced her to give some of the other options a try. She drove the X5 and was immediately sold. Not so much because it was faster and handled better, but because even the things that Lexus has historically been known for (interior quality and fit/finish) were significantly better in the X5.

Having owned a couple long term Lexus cars myself in the past, I totally get the value prop of reliability. I suppose I just expected a little more progress in terms of interior quality over the past decade than I saw in this 2020 ES.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by jnj2455

My parents had a '95 Camry purchased new that I grew up around. I shamefully will admit that when it got the point where it was relegated to family beater, I tried do all the stupid shit a curious teenager would try to on an old car. I kept it in first gear and drove like 15 miles redlining the engine trying to see if I could cook the engine, I slammed it into reverse and park going 40mph forward, poured a few liquids into the gas or oil filler, etc.

Long and short of it, it didn't die lol. However, I'm also of the opinion that Japanese-bubble era Toyotas and all its counterparts were the best they ever will offer and likely will never match again. Kinda like the old Mercedes of yore, designed to a standard, not to a $ bottom line.

Sheesh I feel bad for that camry lol

[VisualEcho]

Back in 2018 I wanted an M2, but the dealer I wanted to use didn't want to deal. In fact, almost none of them did. So I bought an '18 Lexus IS350 FSport. The fit/finish was utterly fantastic IMO, and I got a stellar deal with stellar financing. Unfortunately, it was the wrong car, and as soon as my preferred used dealer got the right used M2, it was traded.

I've found Lexus to be different depending on the particular Lexus you buy.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It's a re-bodied Camry. What did you expect?

No its not; it is a re-bodied Avalon. But, as you say, what did you expect. Toyota tried for a while to compete with the germans with the GS350 but couldn't sell enough and gave up.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

No its not; it is a re-bodied Avalon. But, as you say, what did you expect. Toyota tried for a while to compete with the germans with the GS350 but couldn't sell enough and gave up.

IIRC the 1st gen ES350 was based on the Camry. If Toyota moved it to the larger Avalon platform that would make sense. TBH I pay zero attention to Lexus and barely notice Toyota. The brands are just refrigerators that pass Consumer Reports auto reviews...

Revision: Per wiki, "The first five generations of the ES were built on the Toyota Camry platform, with the sixth and seventh generations more closely related to the Avalon."

[jnj2455]

Don't quote me but I think they are now (at least the latest recent generations) are all on the global architecture TNGA something something platform, similar to VW's MQB. So manipulated iterations of the same baseline to fit the vehicle at hand.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by jnj2455

Don't quote me but I think they are now (at least the latest recent generations) are all on the global architecture TNGA something something platform, similar to VW's MQB. So manipulated iterations of the same baseline to fit the vehicle at hand.

Correct, to be specific, TNGA-K, which encompass:
Avalon
Camry
RX/Venza
next NX
Highlander
Rav4
Sienna

So funny enough, yes the ES shares the basic structure as a Camry

[crankestein]

Reliable, outdated, overpriced: yes

[wtwo3]

Well guys, I dropped off the car today. Flight is this afternoon and I can't WAIT to get back into my m340i.

On the bright side of renting cars that may be less than stellar, driving them for an extended period of time really resets my perspective and helps me appreciate my cars that much more.

All in all, the ES was smooth, relatively comfortable, and the cooled seats were great. Power was adequate. That's about where the pros end. The FWD architecture is so apparent under anything more than casual acceleration it's almost funny. The interior never did grow on me. Nor did the absolutely terrible infotainment. But as something that's maybe a step above a camry/avalon, it's not a horrible car.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by jnj2455

Don't quote me but I think they are now (at least the latest recent generations) are all on the global architecture TNGA something something platform, similar to VW's MQB. So manipulated iterations of the same baseline to fit the vehicle at hand.

Unfortunately, the VW MBQ common architecture model is ruining the auto industry IMO. There is much less model differentiation and driving aesthetics is computer generated now rather than created by excellent chassis design (remember BMWs like the E30?).

But every manufacturer will have to follow because of cost competition.