[epbrown]

Originally Posted by footie

Do a little research before condemning someone else's post.

There's no way your research didn't pick up the following unless you're cherry-picking: http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-p...0-per-car.html.

Here's a small sample, using 2007 numbers:
Audi: $2047
BMW: $3207
DC/MB/Smart: $917
Porsche: $28,247
Toyota: $2182
VW: $430

Porsche responded that their profits included non-vehicle related activities, which is true, but adjusting the numbers for their stock-related profits (they've been accused of acting more like a hedge fund rather than a car maker by no less than the Financial Times), the number was still over $20k/car, which they don't dispute.

You can talk engineering and build quality all you want, but the fact is that a large chunk of the price of a Porsche has nothing to do with production costs. And you can be a Porsche fan and still realize the cars are over-priced. The options charges are seriously skewed compared to the rest of the car market or even just relative to the component prices.

No one can tell a company how much profit they're entitled to, and Porsche customers seem content to pay a premium for the crest on the car. But I passed on Porsche twice during my last 2 sports car searches, despite being a card-carrying PCA member and owning 3 Porsches previously. The cars are still good, even better than most of their competition, but their value no longer matches their prices. You can dispute the Cayman S/M Coupe dichotomy on many fronts, but on value? No freaking way the Cayman S is worth $20k more than an M Coupe in any real sense. The performance, the engineering, the materials, none are superior enough to quantitatively justify the entire price difference.

Unfortunately, too many people's eyes tend to glaze over at the Porsche name, and rational thinking stops coming into the decision, and they capitalize on that (in the truest sense of the word). I don't condemn your post for sharing that opinion, but I strongly dispute it.

[footie]

No one is deny that Porsche cars are over priced, especially the 997 range which if you had read any of my post will know I highlight the fact. Compared to the Cayman the 997 is very overpriced for what is an inferior design that only has a modest power hike and a LSD to warrant the extra dosh.

You think the Cayman S is very expensive compare to a Z4 M coupe, maybe in the US but here in the UK the Cayman S retails at £44,250 compared to £42350. That's an extra £1,900 for a much finer handling car, there is no denying that fact, plus in terms of performance the Porsche is also a little quicker in both acceleration, lap times and top speed.

The problem that I keep highlighting on this site is that comparing cars by price only work with people in your on neck of the woods, maybe in the States BMW are very competitive but else where their price more closely matches their competitors.

P.S.
This is not me being a Porsche fanboy (as they are often called) I am more of a realist who understand that quality is a diminishing return and if you want the best car in the sector you will have to pay more for it.

P.S.

Best don't hear any of my opinions on the Z4M.

[epbrown]

Originally Posted by footie

This is not me being a Porsche fanboy (as they are often called) I am more of a realist who understand that quality is a diminishing return and if you want the best car in the sector you will have to pay more for it.

Well, I'm not prepared to concede that the Cayman S outperforms the Z4 M Coupe, but that discussion always devolves into pointless bench-racing and cherry-picking, so let that one go.

I also believe in paying for quality, but value for money means the quality should equal the price, and we both seem to agree that you don't achieve that goal with the Porsche line-up. Should a Cayman cost more than an M Coupe? Perhaps, if it cost more to produce, which I'm not certain is true. Is the price difference commensurate with the additional value? Not here in the US, where I'm shopping. I can understand your experience is different.

[footie]

Originally Posted by epbrown

Well, I'm not prepared to concede that the Cayman S outperforms the Z4 M Coupe, but that discussion always devolves into pointless bench-racing and cherry-picking, so let that one go.

I also believe in paying for quality, but value for money means the quality should equal the price, and we both seem to agree that you don't achieve that goal with the Porsche line-up. Should a Cayman cost more than an M Coupe? Perhaps, if it cost more to produce, which I'm not certain is true. Is the price difference commensurate with the additional value? Not here in the US, where I'm shopping. I can understand your experience is different.

Not cherry-picking, only the shocking reality that the Cayman is a much better balanced car, both on the track and off it. The performance figures really mean little as in the real world, 0.5s to 100mph means nothing in normal traffic.

You may feel that the Cayman isn't as good of value as the Z4M but that is only depends on what you value most, some people would say the Z4 3.0Sport is much better than either or the TT-S is better than all of them for a totally different reason. You pick your car not so much on what other say about it but how you yourself feel, I liked the Z4 3.0 which I got a test in some years ago but didn't like the M version but that's not to say it's any worse a car, just it didn't appeal to me.

In fact if you read my comments on the new M3 it's the only M-car I have ever considered before as up to now they have be to raw for daily driving in my opinion compare to the Audi.

[Alpine335TT]

My own opinion.. after having my friend's Cayman S for a day.. is that I enjoy my 335 much more... especially for daily driving.. the power in that car doesn't kick in until you're way up in the RPMs..

Looks wise and pimp factor... the Cayman obviously wins... it sure does turn a lot of heads

As far as tracking. I don't do it.. so wouldn't make a difference how much better it is around the twisties..

[mPlasticDesign]

Using the same reference R&T did a comparo, Z4M vs Cayman S:

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Using the same reference R&T did a comparo, Z4M vs Cayman S:
Attachment 156536

ummmm....the comparo is with a boxsterS

[Alpine335TT]

Originally Posted by shiggy

ummmm....the comparo is with a boxsterS

lol

[Dammmittt]

I like the cayman S interior better than the M Coupe. As far as handling and performance goes, better is a relative word. The Cayman, being a mid engine car is naturally going to be much easier to drive to the limit and beyond...the M Coupe is much more of a handfull...some times that can be fun tho...others it scares the shit out of you.

[Bozmo]

I think buying a Porsche is not just buying for it's performance or it's production value. Style and rarity play a big role too. Their price will affect their rarity.

If you think the price is too high, then it just simply means you are not their target.

[dekaliber]

Originally Posted by Bozmo

Style and rarity play a big role too. Their price will affect their rarity.

Wonder how much lambo, ferrari, aston martin, etc. make on their cars? The exclusivity point hits the nail on the head. BMW makes pretty everyday luxury vehicles, but Porsche makes Porsches. Same reason why a Z06 costs a fraction of the price of a Ferrari.

I'm cheap though, so I am all about the value!

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by shiggy

ummmm....the comparo is with a boxsterS

Thanks Mr. Obvious, I posted the Z4M numbers for your benefit since you and Footie were unaware of it's performance. B4 you speak.

Originally Posted by footie

I didn't realise that the 335i had been that quick is any test, clearly I was wrong. I also didn't think it was quicker than the Z4M but again by the looks of it that is true too and in turn it's quicker than the old E46 M3.

...and your reply to his post.

Originally Posted by shiggy

she is quick thats for sure....by the way....car and driver also has it at 4.8

[jaiman]

Originally Posted by Bozmo

I think buying a Porsche is not just buying for it's performance or it's production value. Style and rarity play a big role too. Their price will affect their rarity.

If you think the price is too high, then it just simply means you are not their target.

Porsche, rare? You're not from downtown TO are you? Around here I see so many Porsches that I would be looking for something else just to be a little different. It wouldn't surprise me if on my way home tonight I see more Porsche's than E60's.

[Bozmo]

Originally Posted by jaiman

Porsche, rare? You're not from downtown TO are you? Around here I see so many Porsches that I would be looking for something else just to be a little different. It wouldn't surprise me if on my way home tonight I see more Porsche's than E60's.

Comparing a brand vs a specific generation of a model in a brand isn't very fair. I see more Z4 than I see 987 Boxster though.

Anyhow, you are misunderstanding my post. I did not state Porsches are rare. What I simply meant was the price affects the number of sales, which is obvious. And knowing this, price could be used to market how exclusive they are.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Thanks Mr. Obvious, I posted the Z4M numbers for your benefit since you and Footie were unaware of it's performance. B4 you speak.



...and your reply to his post.

what a monkey!
you do and you'll see that i am aware of the numbers, never said i didnt...we were talkin about the caymen s vs 335i...dont get all pissy!
peace!

[footie]

Originally Posted by Bozmo

Comparing a brand vs a specific generation of a model in a brand isn't very fair. I see more Z4 than I see 987 Boxster though.

Anyhow, you are misunderstanding my post. I did not state Porsches are rare. What I simply meant was the price affects the number of sales, which is obvious. And knowing this, price could be used to market how exclusive they are.

Only the Z4M roadster is a rival for the Boxster S, the Z4M coupe is the rightful rival to the Cayman S and it was that car which my comments were directed to.

On another topic how do you lot feel about the 335i saloon compared to the new S4 with it's supercharged engine, this will be a better comparison than the v8 unit in the S5 as it should match the 335i in both economy and performance, plus I hear it's gaining the new DSG with 7 gears and a similar rear diff system to that of the X6. Should be a true competitor this time round.

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by shiggy

what a monkey!
you do and you'll see that i am aware of the numbers, never said i didnt...we were talkin about the caymen s vs 335i.....

NO YOU WERE NOT!
Are you retarded? I don't want to frustrate you any more than I have. But both you and Footie were caliming that the 335i was quicker than the Z4M which is not true, so I told you to search before you guys shoot your mouth off. I was nice enough to post the numbers for the Z4M. It is not my fault that YOU guys went off topic with your inaccurate Z4M comment.
So lets try this one more time, the quotes don't lie:

Originally Posted by footie

I didn't realise that the 335i had been that quick is any test, clearly I was wrong. I also didn't think it was quicker than the Z4M but again by the looks of it that is true too and in turn it's quicker than the old E46 M3.....

...AND YOUR RESPONSE WHICH WAS IN AGREEMANT!

Originally Posted by shiggy

she is quick thats for sure....by the way....car and driver also has it at 4.8

....and that is why I showed you the numbers for the Z4M which C&D tested @ 4.7! Truth be told that tells me the cars are essentially the SAME!

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by footie

Only the Z4M roadster is a rival for the Boxster S, the Z4M coupe is the rightful rival to the Cayman S and it was that car which my comments were directed to....

Your comment didn't specify coupe, so when you say Z4M that pretty much means roadster. Beside the point, because we are only talking .1 second difference for the Mcoupe.

[Dammmittt]

It's Memorial Day...relax.

[Bozmo]

Originally Posted by footie

Only the Z4M roadster is a rival for the Boxster S, the Z4M coupe is the rightful rival to the Cayman S and it was that car which my comments were directed to.

Not sure why I was quoted.. =X

I was replying to the fellow I quoted saying he would see more Porsches than E60s and simply gave an example of a more proper comparison if he used a specific generation of model vs another rather than a brand vs specific generation model.

[Excellence]

Cayman S.

[jaiman]

Originally Posted by Bozmo

Comparing a brand vs a specific generation of a model in a brand isn't very fair. I see more Z4 than I see 987 Boxster though.

Anyhow, you are misunderstanding my post. I did not state Porsches are rare. What I simply meant was the price affects the number of sales, which is obvious. And knowing this, price could be used to market how exclusive they are.

Sorry, I meant to say 997 tt vs E60.

And I saw 3 that night, and one E60.