[dgoldenz]

Originally Posted by mousefarmer

I think the used price of Tesla cars is so high because of the reliable nature of the powertrain. The prices for a used Model 3 are almost as much as new ones. BMW and Mercedes used cars drop off the cliff at 50K+ miles or so.

Perhaps having fewer things for people to touch like AC vent tabs and buttons means the car will appear much less beat up or damaged after many years of use. Maintenance history also isn't much of an issue with Tesla as it is with gasoline cars so that will likely keep the price range closer to the price of a new Tesla vs over 50% or more drop for used gas cars, especially German ones.

Check the price of a used model S though. What was $130k 5 years ago is now $40k.

[heavyD^2]

Likely for most of us it will be "never" as ICE is still the dominant selling vehicle on the plant and by the time many of us switch over there will be so many alternatives that Tesla will be like any other auto manufacturer vying for a piece of the pie. The model 3's going to look pretty dated in 2035 when BMW, Audi, MB, Honda, Toyota, etc are all trotting out shiney new EV's.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by mousefarmer

For me its when the price goes down and the weight of the vehicle goes down to be similar to gas cars. I have no brand loyalty for any brand.

A Model 3 weighs LESS than a BMW 340i.

[mousefarmer]

Originally Posted by The HACK

A Model 3 weighs LESS than a BMW 340i.

Wow, crazy guess it's just price then for me and fixing flaws.

[freakystyly]

To be fair, weights are up over the generations for 3 series...

Dual motor model 3 applications are ~1830kgs (4030lbs) which is a couple hundred pounds heavier than a loaded 340xi at around 3800lbs.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by mousefarmer

Wow, crazy guess it's just price then for me and fixing flaws.

Depending on where you live. In California you can get one for less than $37K total, out the door. And the same $37K Model 3 is 400 lbs lighter than the BMW 340i.

[David70]

I am also surprised the Model 3's weight is as low as it is. Pretty close to the BMW 3 series but then the Model S (4900 lbs) weighs about 900 lbs. more than the Model 3? Seems like a real pig for the size of the vehicle.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

I will be interested when range is 400+ miles at constant 70+mph freeway speeds. Less charge stops for road trips.

Model S Plaid can do 520 miles on a single charge. At freeway speeds it loses up to 20% range. So the S Plaid can easily make 400+ miles at 70+ mph.

Granted it cost $136K.

[David70]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

To be fair, weights are up over the generations for 3 series...

Dual motor model 3 applications are ~1830kgs (4030lbs) which is a couple hundred pounds heavier than a loaded 340xi at around 3800lbs.

Originally Posted by The HACK

Depending on where you live. In California you can get one for less than $37K total, out the door. And the same $37K Model 3 is 400 lbs lighter than the BMW 340i.

One of these seems off.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by David70

I am also surprised the Model 3's weight is as low as it is. Pretty close to the BMW 3 series but then the Model S (4900 lbs) weighs about 900 lbs. more than the Model 3? Seems like a real pig for the size of the vehicle.

The battery pack on the Model 3 is significantly larger than the Model 3. But so is the RANGE.

The BASE Model 3, without the 2 motors driving it and a significantly smaller battery pack, is no heavier than your average small ICE sedan at around 3,500 lbs, and significantly lighter than your average BMW. When you step up on battery size, that's when the weight increases dramatically. The AWD long range and performance models of the Model 3 variant weighs about 100 lbs heavier than the 340i (but accelerates to 60 about 1/2 second faster (the Performance model does, the Long Range model requires a $2,000 'upgrade' from Tesla to match the 340i).

But the range difference between the Dual Motor Long Range to the standard RWD base model is in excess of 100 miles. It's a huge difference if you ever plan on taking a extended drive of more than 5 hours for sure.

[freakystyly]

The performance of the single motor also compares closer to a 330i and not a 340i.. because everyone cares about 0-60 and nothing more. I can't speak of handling or feel, I assume they both aren't amazing.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by David70

One of these seems off.

Do your own research.

A base RWD Model 3 cost $37,000. There's a $1,500 instant rebate from CA, plus a $2,000 clean vehicle rebate you can apply for, for a total of $3,500 off the price of the car, which amounts to just about cover the tax and license fees. So for just around $37,xxx you can buy a base RWD Model 3 that weighs somewhere around 3,500 lbs, which is almost 400 lbs lighter than a BMW M340i xDrive.

The dual motor iterations of the Model 3, bot in Long Range guise and Performance guise, has a significantly larger battery pack (more weight) and an additional motor driving the front wheels (more weight).

What exactly seems off?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

Likely for most of us it will be "never" as ICE is still the dominant selling vehicle on the plant and by the time many of us switch over there will be so many alternatives that Tesla will be like any other auto manufacturer vying for a piece of the pie.

Hence why this thread is a mess.

The OP has been brainwashed into believing there is only one manufacturer building viable EVs. This, even as he declares his brand independence. That's the power of social media hype combined with failure to do homework.

There are two threads here:

"When will you buy an EV?"
"Would you ever buy a Tesla?"

The first one could be a productive discussion. The second has been rehashed 97 times on this forum alone is repost after repost after repost. I was going to attempt to fix the situation, but this hydra has run amok too long to be stopped so it is what it is.

[David70]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Depending on where you live. In California you can get one for less than $37K total, out the door. And the same $37K Model 3 is 400 lbs lighter than the BMW 340i.

The $66k BMW M340i in this article has an actual weight of 3827, far from a base model and I have never seen an actual weight that shows 3427 for a Model 3. I think your "400 lbs. lighter" is off.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-maintenance/

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

The performance of the single motor also compares closer to a 330i and not a 340i.. because everyone cares about 0-60 and nothing more. I can't speak of handling or feel, I assume they both aren't amazing.

You need to go drive one.

Disclaimer: I've bought nothing but BMWs for the last 25 years. Going as far back as I can remember I have had nearly nothing but BMWs in my garage. At one point I even have a BMW gasoline car, a BMW diesel, and a BMW electric in my garage. I am about as BMW fan-boi as one can get.

Yet when my C7 Corvette Grand Sport blew an engine at Laguna Seca, and GM decided it's not worth their time to try and fix it and cut me a check for the car, what did I buy?

A Model 3 Dual Motor Long Range.

Not a BMW 3 or 4 series, not a BMW X3, nor any future BMW "I" offerings (I don't need a car, I still have 2 BMWs in the garage for 2 adult drivers). When I test drove a Tesla Dual Motor last October, it drove better, accelerate better, and handled better than ANY BMW I have driven except my Z4 M Coupe. And the Z4 M is hard to live with on a daily basis (although I will if I have to like I have in the past).

Unlike any of the newer BMWs, they handle well despite the weight, the Tesla handled well BECAUSE of the weight. All of it is down low underneath you. None of that 500+ lbs of motor siting high up. So much of the mass is concentrated down low, and there's so much mass improving traction, and so much torque easily available at all times without waiting for an engine to spool up, that it drove like nothing else I've ever driven.

Even compared to the C7 Grand Sport with its massive 6.1 liter V-8, you simply can't compare how quickly all the power and torque is available to you in an electric motor. The Corvette was FAST. Fastest car I've owned. Eye opening fast. But it felt SLOW by comparison. Even though the 0-60 in the Tesla is only marginally faster than the C7, the sensation it delivered is NEXT LEVEL. And the Corvette sits down low, with low ground clearance, and a pushrod V8 sitting as low as possible in the engine bay, and even then you can't compare having ALL the weight of the car sitting fully underneath you, not around your mid-section.

The biggest difference is, the Model 3 came with 235mm wide ALL SEASON tires. So they will give up the ghost long before the Z4 M Coupe in a corner, or the C7 Grand Sport (which came with 285mm front, 335mm rear MICHELIN PILOT CUP 2's). So the maximum speed one can carry in a corner is highly dependent on the tire the Tesla is using. But as for handling and feel? My Dual Motor Long Range will tackle any corner with aplomb and composure.

And since I still have a BMW that will do 600+ miles on a single fill-up (okay, the best I've done is 580 miles, but that's with multiple stints at 100mph on stretches) and can fill up virtually anywhere there's diesel sold, I don't really care one way or another that the Tesla can't be filled up in less than 20 minutes when it's ran dry. In 6 weeks it's only been "topped off" twice. And that's when I plug it in at night, and next morning it's magically filled up.

As a long, LONG time car guy, and an early adapter of electricity as a mode of transportation, but a LATE comer to Tesla, I will say this.

Don't buy a Tesla. Don't EVER buy a Tesla. Because if and when you do, you will see the world entirely differently, and you will never be able to buy a car like a normie anymore.

I walked away from this experience knowing I will never, ever buy a car differently. I test drove a car with zero sales pressure. The guy left a key with me with zero pressure to return it. Never discussed with me when I have to order, never bothered to ask me to put down a deposit. All he said was, "when you're ready to place an order, just go to Tesla.com. And if you have a referral code, make sure you enter it to get free 1,000 miles charging."

We never talked price. Never even whipped out a piece of paper with the "quadrant." No talks of "how much can you afford?" "What's your monthly payment budget?" "What does it take to put you in a Tesla today?" I literally never even talked to a sales person except to arrange for the test drive. And after I placed the order, every thing was handled through an online portal. On the day I picked up the car, it was "here's your key Mr HACK, there's some paperwork in the car. Once you sign it, pull up to the front of the dealership and return it to the attendant. Congratulations."

I was in and out of the "dealership" in less than 30 minutes, and that included time walking over to Starbucks for a cup of coffee.

In the first week I had the car, someone kicked up a piece of rock on the freeway and cracked my windshield. I arranged for service to replace the windshield using my phone's Tesla app, drop the car off the very next Monday, and had the car back on the same day. And again, talked to a "service advisor" for less than 10 minutes, he texted me a Uber voucher good for $200 so I can get around for the rest of the day. Done.

Compared to my last car purchase, which we spent over 2 days back and forth with the dealership haggling, car spent over 9 months at the dealership in the 18 months I owned it, and just the NIGHTMARE process of dealing with a third party that does not have anyone's best interest in mind? This ownership experience has completely changed my perception of how the automotive industry sucks in general and how the whole dealership model is just the worst.

So yeah.

DON'T EVER BUY A TESLA. Heed my words.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

There are two threads here:

"When will you buy an EV?"
"Would you ever buy a Tesla?"

I'm going to just say this. And this is my last word on this thread. I promise.

I've owned multiple EVs. In fact, my first was a Fiat 500e. Then a BMW i3. Then a Chevy Bolt. Believe you me, I didn't believe in the Tesla hype.

Then I bought a Tesla.

If you never own one, or have gone through the process to buy one, you won't understand. It's not like I haven't bought "viable" EVs before. The i3 was about as unique an experience as one can have with an EV. It was an engineering marvel. The Bolt can travel up to 240 miles without a charge, so in terms of range, it's certainly comparable.

But to say that this discussion is 2 questions? Bull. I will tell you this, now. If you're even remotely considering an EV, there's no point NOT giving Tesla the first look. And at that point, you're not convinced you like the Tesla, then an EV is likely not for you. And again, at this point, if you STILL insist on buying an EV, then the ONLY thing on the market that you should even consider is a Porsche Taycan.

After owning the Fiat 500e, BMW i3, and the Chevy Bolt for extended time, Tesla is at least 5 years ahead of everyone else. And if you factor in the ownership experience, at least 15 years ahead of everyone else.

[David70]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Hence why this thread is a mess.

The OP has been brainwashed into believing there is only one manufacturer building viable EVs. This, even as he declares his brand independence. That's the power of social media hype combined with failure to do homework.

There are two threads here:

"When will you buy an EV?"
"Would you ever buy a Tesla?"

The first one could be a productive discussion. The second has been rehashed 97 times on this forum alone is repost after repost after repost. I was going to attempt to fix the situation, but this hydra has run amok too long to be stopped so it is what it is.

I agree. I doubt I will ever buy a Tesla but hard to be sure, I think I will buy an EV in the next 5 years. I said it before but I am not willing to spend $45k for pretty much a base electric so while Tesla currently has the best EV available they don't have anything to offer for a price I am willing to spend. I also am not thrilled with their service location options. Both what they offer and their support could improve and with it my thoughts would change.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by The HACK

You need to go drive one.

Disclaimer: I've bought nothing but BMWs for the last 25 years. Going as far back as I can remember I have had nearly nothing but BMWs in my garage. At one point I even have a BMW gasoline car, a BMW diesel, and a BMW electric in my garage. I am about as BMW fan-boi as one can get.

Yet when my C7 Corvette Grand Sport blew an engine at Laguna Seca, and GM decided it's not worth their time to try and fix it and cut me a check for the car, what did I buy?

A Model 3 Dual Motor Long Range.

Not a BMW 3 or 4 series, not a BMW X3, nor any future BMW "I" offerings (I don't need a car, I still have 2 BMWs in the garage for 2 adult drivers). When I test drove a Tesla Dual Motor last October, it drove better, accelerate better, and handled better than ANY BMW I have driven except my Z4 M Coupe. And the Z4 M is hard to live with on a daily basis (although I will if I have to like I have in the past).

Unlike any of the newer BMWs, they handle well despite the weight, the Tesla handled well BECAUSE of the weight. All of it is down low underneath you. None of that 500+ lbs of motor siting high up. So much of the mass is concentrated down low, and there's so much mass improving traction, and so much torque easily available at all times without waiting for an engine to spool up, that it drove like nothing else I've ever driven.

Even compared to the C7 Grand Sport with its massive 6.1 liter V-8, you simply can't compare how quickly all the power and torque is available to you in an electric motor. The Corvette was FAST. Fastest car I've owned. Eye opening fast. But it felt SLOW by comparison. Even though the 0-60 in the Tesla is only marginally faster than the C7, the sensation it delivered is NEXT LEVEL. And the Corvette sits down low, with low ground clearance, and a pushrod V8 sitting as low as possible in the engine bay, and even then you can't compare having ALL the weight of the car sitting fully underneath you, not around your mid-section.

The biggest difference is, the Model 3 came with 235mm wide ALL SEASON tires. So they will give up the ghost long before the Z4 M Coupe in a corner, or the C7 Grand Sport (which came with 285mm front, 335mm rear MICHELIN PILOT CUP 2's). So the maximum speed one can carry in a corner is highly dependent on the tire the Tesla is using. But as for handling and feel? My Dual Motor Long Range will tackle any corner with aplomb and composure.

And since I still have a BMW that will do 600+ miles on a single fill-up (okay, the best I've done is 580 miles, but that's with multiple stints at 100mph on stretches) and can fill up virtually anywhere there's diesel sold, I don't really care one way or another that the Tesla can't be filled up in less than 20 minutes when it's ran dry. In 6 weeks it's only been "topped off" twice. And that's when I plug it in at night, and next morning it's magically filled up.

As a long, LONG time car guy, and an early adapter of electricity as a mode of transportation, but a LATE comer to Tesla, I will say this.

Don't buy a Tesla. Don't EVER buy a Tesla. Because if and when you do, you will see the world entirely differently, and you will never be able to buy a car like a normie anymore.

I walked away from this experience knowing I will never, ever buy a car differently. I test drove a car with zero sales pressure. The guy left a key with me with zero pressure to return it. Never discussed with me when I have to order, never bothered to ask me to put down a deposit. All he said was, "when you're ready to place an order, just go to Tesla.com. And if you have a referral code, make sure you enter it to get free 1,000 miles charging."

We never talked price. Never even whipped out a piece of paper with the "quadrant." No talks of "how much can you afford?" "What's your monthly payment budget?" "What does it take to put you in a Tesla today?" I literally never even talked to a sales person except to arrange for the test drive. And after I placed the order, every thing was handled through an online portal. On the day I picked up the car, it was "here's your key Mr HACK, there's some paperwork in the car. Once you sign it, pull up to the front of the dealership and return it to the attendant. Congratulations."

I was in and out of the "dealership" in less than 30 minutes, and that included time walking over to Starbucks for a cup of coffee.

In the first week I had the car, someone kicked up a piece of rock on the freeway and cracked my windshield. I arranged for service to replace the windshield using my phone's Tesla app, drop the car off the very next Monday, and had the car back on the same day. And again, talked to a "service advisor" for less than 10 minutes, he texted me a Uber voucher good for $200 so I can get around for the rest of the day. Done.

Compared to my last car purchase, which we spent over 2 days back and forth with the dealership haggling, car spent over 9 months at the dealership in the 18 months I owned it, and just the NIGHTMARE process of dealing with a third party that does not have anyone's best interest in mind? This ownership experience has completely changed my perception of how the automotive industry sucks in general and how the whole dealership model is just the worst.

So yeah.

DON'T EVER BUY A TESLA. Heed my words.

LOL this reads like a bad infomercial. I feel like the ShamWow guy should be narrating this post.

[Vivek.]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Lease the Tesla

The iPace has crappy range and is overpriced for what you get

If you're looking into a model 3, just buy and resell it down the line. Used values are insane, you can put 20-40k miles on it over 1-3 years and lose a couple grand total on the ownership. People don't want to wait on the waitlist and Tesla tries to control what cars are released to the used market (leased cars don't have a buy out option and are recycled rather than re-sold by Tesla)

Originally Posted by RJD851

The build and paint quality is almost laughable considering the price of the car. I know folks that work in the factory, one worked for GM before and he's shocked at the tolerances and general lack of QC. I get it, you're paying for the technology etc etc but the panel fitments and paint quality are worthy of a car costing much less. My ppf installer found a bunch of these, and I was able to get the more obvious ones fixed by Tesla without much issue.

It's not almost laughable, it's a complete joke. One of my close friends (guy whose 135i convinced me to get my e92) took delivery of his 2021 Model 3 last weekend. We took it on a little road trip on Friday and I noticed that the fender to door gap gets really narrow in the middle, seems acceptable at the top, and is way too wide at the bottom. It's like the body panels are not stamped/cut properly--didn't look like any amount of adjustment would get them to fit right because the edges aren't even the same shape. This is one of countless QC grievances on the car. They even left some tape on the headliner and managed to put 10,000 miles worth of shoe scuffs on the driver's door sill on the brand new car before delivery.

The range is...fine. He has the long range 3 and we started at around 52% IIRC, drove it for about 10 hours and had to charge 3 times. All 3 times we stopped for the duration of a 20-min netflix episode (every charging spot had data service) and after that we were on our way. Battery charge ranged between 92 and 20% over the trip. If we had planned properly and left on a full charge we might've been able to get away with only 1 charging stop....but that's not something we have to plan for 12 hours in advance on a ICE car so why should we have to deal with that complication

It's not much of an inconvenience....as long as you're aimlessly driving down the coast for fun with no real schedule or destination. The charging time is really fast at a supercharger, but the exercise of finding one and planning your route around it is annoying.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Vivek.

If you're looking into a model 3, just buy and resell it down the line. Used values are insane, you can put 20-40k miles on it over 1-3 years and lose a couple grand total on the ownership. People don't want to wait on the waitlist and Tesla tries to control what cars are released to the used market (leased cars don't have a buy out option and are recycled rather than re-sold by Tesla)

It's not almost laughable, it's a complete joke. One of my close friends (guy whose 135i convinced me to get my e92) took delivery of his 2021 Model 3 last weekend. We took it on a little road trip on Friday and I noticed that the fender to door gap gets really narrow in the middle, seems acceptable at the top, and is way too wide at the bottom. It's like the body panels are not stamped/cut properly--didn't look like any amount of adjustment would get them to fit right because the edges aren't even the same shape. This is one of countless QC grievances on the car. They even left some tape on the headliner and managed to put 10,000 miles worth of shoe scuffs on the driver's door sill on the brand new car before delivery.

The range is...fine. He has the long range 3 and we started at around 52% IIRC, drove it for about 10 hours and had to charge 3 times. All 3 times we stopped for the duration of a 20-min netflix episode (every charging spot had data service) and after that we were on our way. Battery charge ranged between 92 and 20% over the trip. If we had planned properly and left on a full charge we might've been able to get away with only 1 charging stop....but that's not something we have to plan for 12 hours in advance on a ICE car so why should we have to deal with that complication

It's not much of an inconvenience....as long as you're aimlessly driving down the coast for fun with no real schedule or destination. The charging time is really fast at a supercharger, but the exercise of finding one and planning your route around it is annoying.

I'd never buy any Electric Car, I only lease them and give them back

And as far as I know there is no wait currently on a model 3

Not worth the depreciation or the risk of ownership

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I'm going to just say this. And this is my last word on this thread. I promise.

Sounds good. I'll absolutely hold you to that.

But to say that this discussion is 2 questions? Bull. I will tell you this, now. If you're even remotely considering an EV, there's no point NOT giving Tesla the first look. And at that point, you're not convinced you like the Tesla, then an EV is likely not for you.

I gave the Tesla Model 3 a look when I was in the market and passed.

Instead, I bought a Ford Focus Electric and it has served me well and met my needs as a daily driver for the two-plus years I've owned it. It gave me the chance to try out an EV for my use cases at a relatively low price point (cost me <$20k).

Later this year, I intend to purchase a Ford Mustang Mach E GT to replace the other vehicle in my garage. I decided on the Mach E GT because I believe it will offer better quality than what I could get from competitors, because I like the idea of supporting the local company at this juncture, and because I think it's going to be one hell of a fun vehicle. The reviews of the Mach E have been almost universally positive. By all indications, it's set to become an extremely successful product family for Ford.

So nope, no sir. Deciding to buy an EV is not the same as deciding to buy a Tesla product.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Model S Plaid can do 520 miles on a single charge. At freeway speeds it loses up to 20% range. So the S Plaid can easily make 400+ miles at 70+ mph.

Granted it cost $136K.

Would never pay that for an S. Also doesn't even exist yet. When their $50k car can do that range, I am down. I don't need the performance(not what this car would be for), long range 3 I test drove was plenty quick enough.

On another note, I asked my insurance agent how much insurance cost on a model 3 long range. His reply was more than the GT4 I have incoming. What the hell, that can't be right. Are people really paying that for insurance? He also said long range and performance premium is the same, since they are both dual motor.