[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by fgpalmer71

I love Rich....and Rich loves Tesla's! Lol.

The screens have gone through a few iterations. Handles are indeed an issue on the Model S....Tesla replaces them frequently under warranty. Not an issue on the Model 3. I've watched every episode of Rich Rebuilds, guy knows more about Tesla's then Tesla....and again, he loves them. His daughter drives the wrapped Tesla he used to drive. His issues with Tesla are with their business model and not the car. He might not be your best example.

I never said he hated Teslas. But he's been pretty unbiased as to the issues you will have as an owner. He put up a video where his head mechanic was working on a Model X and went through a list of common problems. He constantly pokes fun at the Tesla fan boys out there. This is why I posted up that anyone considering a Tesla needs to look at the videos on his channel. You'll get as unbiased a view into the experience you'll have as an owner.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

To be fair though, Electric cars have their share of sensors and components you don’t find in ICE cars. Examples: DC to DC converters, motor resolvers, motor control ECUs, torque sensors, multitude of high voltage sensors and current sensors, shaft speed sensors, etc. and the technology is in its infancy, meaning more frequent failure rates than the old tech.

This is true, but the failure rate of solid state electronics can be extremely low in a good design. Properly designed electronics can last decades, if not longer. If not for capacitor aging or soldering issues due to thermal cycling, there are a lot of low voltage electronics that would last forever.

Most of those technologies you mention are already present in ICE cars, though not to the same degree perhaps. We already see things like stepper motor driver failures on the throttle bodies of the E92 M3. New BMWs are full of sensors.

Such high voltage and current DC-DC conversion has not been the norm in automotive applications, but it should be one of the most heavily exercised systems and get a lot of design attention.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by chris719

This is true, but the failure rate of solid state electronics can be extremely low in a good design. Properly designed electronics can last decades, if not longer. If not for capacitor aging or soldering issues due to thermal cycling, there are a lot of low voltage electronics that would last forever.

Most of those technologies you mention are already present in ICE cars, though not to the same degree perhaps. We already see things like stepper motor driver failures on the throttle bodies of the E92 M3. New BMWs are full of sensors.

Such high voltage and current DC-DC conversion has not been the norm in automotive applications, but it should be one of the most heavily exercised systems and get a lot of design attention.

Also agree. The weakest point right now is still the battery. Stringing a bunch of Li battery packs together is not the way. Solid state will be the future, but I think we're still a ways off before it can be industrialized in a large scale and manufactured in a cost effective matter.

[David70]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Watch some of the Youtube videos from Rich Rebuilds. You'll see a lot of other things that fail on these cars. The Model S' main screen is actually the DME (BMW speak) of the entire car. There are two known flaws to this screen. The first one is not something that will cause a malfunction but it's annoying. There is some liquid that will start to ooze out of the screen creating a sloppy mess. The only way to fix this is to replace the entire module. The second issue is from the flash memory getting worn out due to all the logging the system is configured by default from the factory. Once the flash memory fails, the car won't operate.

Then there are the other nagging problems with the electric door handles, the gull wing doors, etc, etc.

It seems some parts are obtainable from Tesla and others are not. Rich has to troll salvage yards/auctions for donor cars to get parts to repair customer cars.

And seem to be more reliable in terms of the mechanical simplicity, just hope you don't get into a car wreck with any of these cars. TFL on Youtube went through that very mess trying to get their Model 3 fixed after a minor fender bender and they worked with a Tesla approved body shop. While this situation happened a while ago, based on what I've seen supply chain issues haven't improved much.

Video screens, door design/door handles and expensive body work, hardly examples of problems that wouldn't be expected in buying a car from a relatively new startup, all of them could be on the ICE also and my answer was to the general question of buying an electric vs an ICE. I wouldn't expect a major manufacturer to have any of the problems above and the drivetrain and major components to have fewer problems even as they build their first cars. Look at the number of systems and sensors that go into making the exhaust meet the required standards. O2 sensors, MAF, fuel pressure, PCV valves, catalytic converters, fueling systems to contain vapor, the list goes on and on and most of these systems are from from new and still cause troubles. Plug into a modern ICE to diagnose the check engine light and the possibilities for problems are massive.

[David70]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

To be fair though, Electric cars have their share of sensors and components you don’t find in ICE cars. Examples: DC to DC converters, motor resolvers, motor control ECUs, torque sensors, multitude of high voltage sensors and current sensors, shaft speed sensors, etc. and the technology is in its infancy, meaning more frequent failure rates than the old tech.

Plenty of cases where an electric motor works for many years with close to zero maintenance and repairs and I can't think of any combustion engine where you can say the same.

The electric starter on the ICE is a good example, now highly unlikely in 100k-200k miles with thousands of starts that you will ever touch it.

[chassis]

I don't see anyone claiming the electric motor is a weak link for BEVs.

The battery is the weak link.

Speaking to Tesla specifically, excluding the electric powertrain, it's a crummy car in my view.

[dvq]

Originally Posted by spucktacular

THIS IS A BMW FORUM = PEOPLE THAT LIKE DRIVING

By extension, that means getting pleasure from hearing an engine rev through the gears, the shift if you're a manual driver, the exaggerated exhaust if you have a bi-turbo v6/v8... its the pleasure.

I love Tesla and what they stand for, but if you really love cars.. you're probably going to hold off as long as possible, just cause they take away what we love most.. connection to the drive. Maybe that's the point, but I'm not ready quite yet

BMW does straight 6 not v6 . As a person that loves driving cars — nothing stops you from owning both a BMW and a Tesla. It can be at the same time, it can be one after another, it's not like you're stuck with one forever either — you have the freedom to enjoy both and even other cars in your lifetime.

I love driving them both. On weekends I'll load up the M4 and drive to sonoma raceway or laguna seca and then when I get home and go out to dinner I'll have the Tesla autopilot me to dinner and relax on the way there.

[David70]

Originally Posted by chassis

I don't see anyone claiming the electric motor is a weak link for BEVs.

The battery is the weak link.

Speaking to Tesla specifically, excluding the electric powertrain, it's a crummy car in my view.

The above said a lot of the systems to keep the electric motor/battery running added possible issues to it. Get the price of the batteries down and many more would deal with the other issues. Right now the overall cost to own an electric doesn't work out very well when compared to an ICE.

"Crummy" - doesn't say much. It works as designed, is safe, fast, and the best electric available. It is now hitting 8 years on the market and has shown they keep running. I don't see mass battery replacement and haven't heard of mass expensive repairs needed to keep them running. If you want to compare them to a similar priced ICE I would say the interior isn't to the same standards, panel gaps, fit and finish. Someone said the screens have issues, anything else?

[David70]

Originally Posted by dvq

BMW does straight 6 not v6 . As a person that loves driving cars — nothing stops you from owning both a BMW and a Tesla. It can be at the same time, it can be one after another, it's not like you're stuck with one forever either — you have the freedom to enjoy both and even other cars in your lifetime.

I love driving them both. On weekends I'll load up the M4 and drive to sonoma raceway or laguna seca and then when I get home and go out to dinner I'll have the Tesla autopilot me to dinner and relax on the way there.

This would be me if I could buy an electric with decent range for a decent price. I don't have an interest in the $45k+ electric, I just don't care enough about the car to pay this much for it when it really becomes an appliance to get me to dinner/work (likely in traffic) when I have a 2nd car that is fun to drive.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by David70

Video screens, door design/door handles and expensive body work, hardly examples of problems that wouldn't be expected in buying a car from a relatively new startup, all of them could be on the ICE also and my answer was to the general question of buying an electric vs an ICE. I wouldn't expect a major manufacturer to have any of the problems above and the drivetrain and major components to have fewer problems even as they build their first cars. Look at the number of systems and sensors that go into making the exhaust meet the required standards. O2 sensors, MAF, fuel pressure, PCV valves, catalytic converters, fueling systems to contain vapor, the list goes on and on and most of these systems are from from new and still cause troubles. Plug into a modern ICE to diagnose the check engine light and the possibilities for problems are massive.

And what seems to be glossed over is the fact that these cars are not trouble free even with the minimum number of mechanical components. You skipped over the fact that the failure of the flash memory of the Model S' main computer will prevent the car from even running. And why this is so is due to the massive amount of data logging they do. Which leads into another aspect that has been kicked around here but many people really don't take seriously but give lip service to which is your own privacy. It's comical to see complaints about how the evil Feds are able to gain access to various aspects of your life yet these same people are willing to hand over that access to the likes of Google, Apple, and now Tesla. Rich did a video on the massive amounts of captured video the car by default records. Do you think Elan is going to let that precious data go untapped?

And none of the proponents of Tesla has even addressed the repair situation. Your choice of repair shops is extremely limited along with access to factory parts. Rich was able to gain access to various manuals from Tesla because Massachusetts passed a law requiring auto manufacturers to share that data.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by chassis

I don't see anyone claiming the electric motor is a weak link for BEVs.

The battery is the weak link.

Speaking to Tesla specifically, excluding the electric powertrain, it's a crummy car in my view.

And you better be in climates that are conducive to optimum battery operation or those range estimates are just pipe dreams.

[bucketfoot]

For me it comes down to the fact that all Tesla models (other than the original roadster) look like turds.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by David70

The above said a lot of the systems to keep the electric motor/battery running added possible issues to it. Get the price of the batteries down and many more would deal with the other issues. Right now the overall cost to own an electric doesn't work out very well when compared to an ICE.

"Crummy" - doesn't say much. It works as designed, is safe, fast, and the best electric available. It is now hitting 8 years on the market and has shown they keep running. I don't see mass battery replacement and haven't heard of mass expensive repairs needed to keep them running. If you want to compare them to a similar priced ICE I would say the interior isn't to the same standards, panel gaps, fit and finish. Someone said the screens have issues, anything else?

Ok. You didn’t address the “excluding the electric powertrain”.

Tesla is a crummy car when compared with others, excluding the means of energy storage and propulsion.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by bucketfoot

For me it comes down to the fact that all Tesla models (other than the original roadster) look like turds.

Agree. None of these egg shaped cars do anything for me in the aesthetics department.

[prompt]

why I should buy a Tesla?
I have already a washing machine

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by spucktacular

THIS IS A BMW FORUM = PEOPLE THAT LIKE DRIVING

By extension, that means getting pleasure from hearing an engine rev through the gears, the shift if you're a manual driver, the exaggerated exhaust if you have a bi-turbo v6/v8... its the pleasure.

BMW? Really? I'm not sure BMW has produced anything like that in the last decade.

Originally Posted by spucktacular

I love Tesla and what they stand for, but if you really love cars.. you're probably going to hold off as long as possible, just cause they take away what we love most.. connection to the drive. Maybe that's the point, but I'm not ready quite yet

You list 2 SUVs in your profile though... I'm assuming you have a vehicle like you described above in your garage somewhere.

In all fairness though. I will continue to own an ICE vehicle along with my BEV for as long as I can afford to do so and as long as there are ICE vehicles I like with a manual transmission. However I don't see any compelling reason to go back to ICE for my daily driver unless it's strictly a cost issue.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

BMW? Really? I'm not sure BMW has produced anything like that in the last decade.

Other than the "V6" aspect, the E82 135i and 128i were made through the 2013 model year.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

BMW? Really? I'm not sure BMW has produced anything like that in the last decade.



You list 2 SUVs in your profile though... I'm assuming you have a vehicle like you described above in your garage somewhere.

In all fairness though. I will continue to own an ICE vehicle along with my BEV for as long as I can afford to do so and as long as there are ICE vehicles I like with a manual transmission. However I don't see any compelling reason to go back to ICE for my daily driver unless it's strictly a cost issue.

I think a lot of these people haven't driven a Tesla or even other EV and just like to dunk on them where they think they can.

The idea that a Model 3 Performance, for example, is less fun to drive than some huge SUV with an automatic transmission is highly questionable.

BMW will make EVs, most people here will eventually buy them, and 95% of them will not look back. Obviously, ICE cars will still have niches and play a role for a long time.

[mousefarmer]

I think the used price of Tesla cars is so high because of the reliable nature of the powertrain. The prices for a used Model 3 are almost as much as new ones. BMW and Mercedes used cars drop off the cliff at 50K+ miles or so.

Perhaps having fewer things for people to touch like AC vent tabs and buttons means the car will appear much less beat up or damaged after many years of use. Maintenance history also isn't much of an issue with Tesla as it is with gasoline cars so that will likely keep the price range closer to the price of a new Tesla vs over 50% or more drop for used gas cars, especially German ones.

[M3_WC]

I will be interested when range is 400+ miles at constant 70+mph freeway speeds. Less charge stops for road trips.

[David70]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

And what seems to be glossed over is the fact that these cars are not trouble free even with the minimum number of mechanical components. You skipped over the fact that the failure of the flash memory of the Model S' main computer will prevent the car from even running. And why this is so is due to the massive amount of data logging they do. Which leads into another aspect that has been kicked around here but many people really don't take seriously but give lip service to which is your own privacy. It's comical to see complaints about how the evil Feds are able to gain access to various aspects of your life yet these same people are willing to hand over that access to the likes of Google, Apple, and now Tesla. Rich did a video on the massive amounts of captured video the car by default records. Do you think Elan is going to let that precious data go untapped?

And none of the proponents of Tesla has even addressed the repair situation. Your choice of repair shops is extremely limited along with access to factory parts. Rich was able to gain access to various manuals from Tesla because Massachusetts passed a law requiring auto manufacturers to share that data.

So you added the flash drive of Model S main computer, anything else? I didn't gloss over anything, just saying what I know and asking what else. The number of serious issues seems to be small and this is from a new manufacturer rapidly increasing production. If bought an electric from major manufacturer or give it more time the reliability will likely be even higher, same with aftermarket parts and repair. Independent shops will cater to what the market wants, the amount of Tesla's that need repair, and their systems being significantly different will make this slow, same with replacement parts.

I just had my oil, transmission. engine air filter and differential fluid replaced on my car, sure wasn't cheap and wouldn't mind all of these items going away.

EDIT- the data logging is a complete different issue but I don't believe they have mastered it anywhere close to what everyone's phone is already doing.

[kyriian]

1) When prices become attainable,
2) When I don't ever have to worry finding a charge point
3) When I don't need to go back to approved facilities to fix the car
4) When they stop looking like a manju/mantou, especially in white
5) When the tesla fan bois stop their moral superiority in their everyday life and stop praising Elon like he is the second coming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=PLxPAwIeL0w
*obviously this is a joke*
6) When Canadian winters stop affecting their range