[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

Here's an update based on 7 months and 8500 miles of driving...

Excellent write up and we're in agreement on most everything, particularly the driving dynamics and responsiveness/predictability.

I haven't had any issues with the windows/door handles, but my car lives in our garage.

Anyone who doubts the car's bona fides overall has likely never driven it.

[Efthreeoh]

Thanks for posting this thread; it is very interesting to get some perspective from a Bimmerhead and not a tech junkie. I've driven a 3-series for 30 years, so trying to pry me out of a BMW is rather difficult. BMW has helped quite a bit since I guess it's lost a lot of brain power to Hyundai over the years and replaced them with aged Buick engineers (disregard how Bob Lutz greatly influenced BMW however...). The Cadillac ATS has my vote right now as a 3-series replacement; we'll have to see what the CT5 brings.

On to the Tesla 3. I have a 80-mile one-way commute that goes from Virginia rural to metro-urban of Washington DC. Great roads to famous Route 66 gridlock. I have to say that I may be (maybe) enticed by letting a Tesla 3 assist driving in slow, bumper-to-bumper traffic. That, coupled to what should be less routine maintenance via the electric drivetrain had me considing a Model 3. I need a 175-mile driving range for the winter months. No charging during the day at my office. What I find interesting however, is no EV manufacturer provides any EPA-like data for winter driving. My average speed per fill up is between 45 - 50 MPH depending upon route I choose and traffic levels. And I'll not be a tech nerd that freezes himself to hypermile an EV, since car heaters were invented for a reason soon after lossless cooling systems were introduced by Cadillac.

A coworker acquired a Model 3 AWD, big battery, back in September 2018. He was a wait-lister, and is a Muskite. I've been in his 3 twice; once shotgun and once in the rear seat. The rear set experience was the deciding factor why I've not bought a Model 3 (my E90 is plus 350,000 miles old); the rear seat is horribly uncomfortable after 20 minutes if seat time. I ride a motorcycle for hours at a time, so my ass is highly calibrated for pain and tolerance to it; I wanted to hit the seat eject button after 20 minutes in the Model 3.

I think the Model 3 front end is ugly, and despite what you said, the tablet dash doesn't work for me. I much prefer a tactile interface system when it comes to automobiles; the BMW E30 being the pinnacle of interior ergonomic design IMO. You inadvertently said it best, you NEED Tesla Autopilot to safely navigate the touch screen tablet. My friend demonstrated the Autopilot and I wasn't that impressed. On several inquires since, he's stated that on a highway under construction (repaving) in inclement weather the Autopilot just gives up. This is where a tactile interface with the vehicle controls comes into play; the Tesla tablet is great for ideal driving conditions where the Autopilot can address (hopefully) a driver's inattentiveness to the road and traffic situation, but when the Autopilot is not available, there is a risk. I believe this to be true with iDrive (CUE, et.al) as well, which is why none of my cars have such an interface.

What I else found annoying with the tablet is there is too much information provided, which distracts from paying attention to the task at hand, driving. I found it interesting the Tesla tech separates graphics between trucks, cars, and motorcycles as situational awareness data; but while I found it impressive, I also found it distracting. I still think the human brain and properly learned driving technique to be better technology over Tesla's system. Also, the map in his car was always present. I asked him and he indicated it can't be turned off. For a daily commuter going to and from work, I really don't need a map showing my position on it all the time. And yes, I have a stick-on Garmin GPS I've used on both my cars and motorcycle, which I found neat at first, but they are small screens and are not prevalent as a data interface. In the Tesla, reviewing speed or audio status has the entrancing map in your face; I find it distracting. The Model 3's tablet forces you to pay attention to the interior, stark as it is otherwise, where as a properly designed tactile interior allows a driver to focus on driving, which is most important.

I'm glad you've found the Tesla 3 to your liking and gave the car a chance, and that it meets your needs and expectations. I'm not yet up to letting go of any of my cars for one.

[Mingwan]

Drove one a couple of weeks ago. I thought I was going to hate it, but I didn’t. There were many issues I had with the car, though. I thought power was good, of course. The handling surprised me in a good way as well as the steering feel. Ride quality was subpar; I was maybe expecting better and I’ve gotta say that sometimes the thing rode like a dump truck. Noise isolation in the cabin was poor, but maybe the lack of engine noises amplified those noises that I’m not used to hearing as loudly. I think cheaping out on the interior by removing as many buttons and panels as possible played in their favor. I didn’t really get any interior rattles or vibrational noises.

Then of course, you start noticing the panel gaps, etc etc. keeping it short, all I can say about the interior is that with the exception of the large screen and the seats, everything else felt like it belongs on 20k car...From a UX standpoint, the infotainment screen and nearly all the functions contained with it are designed terribly. Not sure how some of that shit received an “ok” for production. Also noticed poor weld quality, at least from a persoective of appearance; saw bubbling, inconsistent patterns. It’s something I noticed on the X and S, too.

Will be interesting to see how Volvo’s polestar 2 compares when it comes out.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

On to the Tesla 3. I have a 80-mile one-way commute that goes from Virginia rural to metro-urban of Washington DC. Great roads to famous Route 66 gridlock. I have to say that I may be (maybe) enticed by letting a Tesla 3 assist driving in slow, bumper-to-bumper traffic. That, coupled to what should be less routine maintenance via the electric drivetrain had me considing a Model 3. I need a 175-mile driving range for the winter months. No charging during the day at my office. What I find interesting however, is no EV manufacturer provides any EPA-like data for winter driving. My average speed per fill up is between 45 - 50 MPH depending upon route I choose and traffic levels. And I'll not be a tech nerd that freezes himself to hypermile an EV, since car heaters were invented for a reason soon after lossless cooling systems were introduced by Cadillac.

I actually meant to talk about range in cold weather but forgot. It's an interesting subject. The battery does get used up rather quickly when it's cold. But figuring out the exact numbers is rather complicated. There are three factors: the battery becomes less efficient, you can't use as much regen until it warms up, and the interior air and seat heaters are pretty power hungry. The first one is the simplest one, and I'm just going to throw a ballpark number in here: expect 10% range loss for this reason. Regen is more complicated because it has a large effect on overall efficiency on city streets or in heavy traffic (I would estimate up to 30% efficiency loss if you use no regen at all) but is irrelevant on the highway, and it gradually improves as you're driving and warming up the battery. Finally, interior heating doesn't depend on miles driven - it's a function of the time you spend in the car. I believe it can use up to 2 kWh. Put it all together, and it's clear why no one tells you how much loss to expect in the cold: it's a huge YMMV. In my case, I would see the miles remaining counter dropping at double the actual mileage at the quick dash to the school and back on a very cold morning but at only 1.3x during the longer mostly highway commute with minimal traffic. And as the extreme case, I would lose range at the rate of 6-8 miles per hour with zero actual miles driven if I had to sit in the car waiting for someone.

In your case, if you need 175 miles in any weather, you would need the long range version that you would charge to 90% (280-290 miles indicated) to never worry about it. Shorter range models would make the trip too but they would require doing full charge every day which is not recommended, and you would be coming home with 10-20 miles left and stressing out about it every time.

the rear seat is horribly uncomfortable after 20 minutes if seat time. I ride a motorcycle for hours at a time, so my ass is highly calibrated for pain and tolerance to it; I wanted to hit the seat eject button after 20 minutes in the Model 3.

Because of my height I'm never comfortable in the rear of anything smaller than a mid-size SUV but my girls never complain. I think the main problem there is the height of the seat cushion - it's fine for shorter legs but if you're tall your thighs have no contact with the seat and you get tired quickly.

You inadvertently said it best, you NEED Tesla Autopilot to safely navigate the touch screen tablet.

No, I didn't say that. My use case is opening up the TuneIn screen, scrolling through dozens of icons, picking something from that list then reading through episode names to find the one I want. You can't safely do this while actively engaged in driving in any car.

My friend demonstrated the Autopilot and I wasn't that impressed. On several inquires since, he's stated that on a highway under construction (repaving) in inclement weather the Autopilot just gives up.

At the same time, the capabilities and precision of the system have radically improved over the last several months. Basically, if your impressions of it are from last fall, they're already obsolete. Talking specifically about uneven markings and bad weather, I believe it was about 2-3 months ago when the car improved its processing of this specific scenario.

What I else found annoying with the tablet is there is too much information provided, which distracts from paying attention to the task at hand, driving.

This is something your brain needs to re-learn, so quick test drives don't help here. After about a week or two, I learned to do quick glances to the upper left corner where the speed is shown, and everything else is simply outside my peripheral vision when I'm looking straight ahead. So as far as concentrating on driving, once you've adapted, the absence of any indicators in front of you is an improvement. I still want to have a HUD that would show me my speed, but it's just me and my stupid desire to avoid speeding tickets.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

Drove one a couple of weeks ago. I thought I was going to hate it, but I didn’t. There were many issues I had with the car, though. I thought power was good, of course. The handling surprised me in a good way as well as the steering feel. Ride quality was subpar; I was maybe expecting better and I’ve gotta say that sometimes the thing rode like a dump truck. Noise isolation in the cabin was poor, but maybe the lack of engine noises amplified those noises that I’m not used to hearing as loudly. I think cheaping out on the interior by removing as many buttons and panels as possible played in their favor. I didn’t really get any interior rattles or vibrational noises.

Then of course, you start noticing the panel gaps, etc etc. keeping it short, all I can say about the interior is that with the exception of the large screen and the seats, everything else felt like it belongs on 20k car...From a UX standpoint, the infotainment screen and nearly all the functions contained with it are designed terribly. Not sure how some of that shit received an “ok” for production. Also noticed poor weld quality, at least from a persoective of appearance; saw bubbling, inconsistent patterns. It’s something I noticed on the X and S, too.

Will be interesting to see how Volvo’s polestar 2 compares when it comes out.

I found the exact same issues. I've driven a few Chevrolet Volts, and found the Volt very quiet, as same for the Bolt. The Tesla 3 is no quieter than my E90.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

I actually meant to talk about range in cold weather but forgot. It's an interesting subject. The battery does get used up rather quickly when it's cold. But figuring out the exact numbers is rather complicated. There are three factors: the battery becomes less efficient, you can't use as much regen until it warms up, and the interior air and seat heaters are pretty power hungry. The first one is the simplest one, and I'm just going to throw a ballpark number in here: expect 10% range loss for this reason. Regen is more complicated because it has a large effect on overall efficiency on city streets or in heavy traffic (I would estimate up to 30% efficiency loss if you use no regen at all) but is irrelevant on the highway, and it gradually improves as you're driving and warming up the battery. Finally, interior heating doesn't depend on miles driven - it's a function of the time you spend in the car. I believe it can use up to 2 kWh. Put it all together, and it's clear why no one tells you how much loss to expect in the cold: it's a huge YMMV. In my case, I would see the miles remaining counter dropping at double the actual mileage at the quick dash to the school and back on a very cold morning but at only 1.3x during the longer mostly highway commute with minimal traffic. And as the extreme case, I would lose range at the rate of 6-8 miles per hour with zero actual miles driven if I had to sit in the car waiting for someone.

In your case, if you need 175 miles in any weather, you would need the long range version that you would charge to 90% (280-290 miles indicated) to never worry about it. Shorter range models would make the trip too but they would require doing full charge every day which is not recommended, and you would be coming home with 10-20 miles left and stressing out about it every time.
Because of my height I'm never comfortable in the rear of anything smaller than a mid-size SUV but my girls never complain. I think the main problem there is the height of the seat cushion - it's fine for shorter legs but if you're tall your thighs have no contact with the seat and you get tired quickly.
No, I didn't say that. My use case is opening up the TuneIn screen, scrolling through dozens of icons, picking something from that list then reading through episode names to find the one I want. You can't safely do this while actively engaged in driving in any car. At the same time, the capabilities and precision of the system have radically improved over the last several months. Basically, if your impressions of it are from last fall, they're already obsolete. Talking specifically about uneven markings and bad weather, I believe it was about 2-3 months ago when the car improved its processing of this specific scenario.
This is something your brain needs to re-learn, so quick test drives don't help here. After about a week or two, I learned to do quick glances to the upper left corner where the speed is shown, and everything else is simply outside my peripheral vision when I'm looking straight ahead. So as far as concentrating on driving, once you've adapted, the absence of any indicators in front of you is an improvement. I still want to have a HUD that would show me my speed, but it's just me and my stupid desire to avoid speeding tickets.

Thanks for the reply. Being trained in science and engineering, I think it is reasonable to expect that energy use at various temperature ranges and weather conditions can be predicted at a confidence level equal to EPA testing of ICE MPG figures. I think what is at play is just marketing, plain and simple. A 250-mile range in EPA testing that drops 25% (a figure I've seen Tesla and other EV drivers state) can be disheartening to potential buyers. It think EV range should be provided for summer/winter of some sort. Right now, most EV buyers are well educated and technically minded and probably understand the relationship between battery energy storage and temperature and consumption rate for heating requirements. But most products are marketed for the lowest common denominator (read as "dumbass") so a broader market share may bring the EPA to make changes to the EV Maroney information window label.

I will be interested to see how Audi handles its HMI for EVs. Audi has some great features in its current interior formats, the newest one being able to tell the driver the best speed to make the next traffic light under green, or the time remaining red. I remain convinced that the Tesla Tablet is as much production cost issue and commensurate marketing hype as it is conceived to be the ultimate automotive HMI.

I'll ask about the improvement of the Autopilot since November. Having seen the background video processing capability the Model 3 has to track traffic targets, it is quite impressive to say the least, but not any better than a well trained human IMO.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

But most products are marketed for the lowest common denominator (read as "dumbass") so a broader market share may bring the EPA to make changes to the EV Maroney information window label.

I agree. It shouldn't take a graduate degree to explain and understand a basic product metric like range. Especially if you want to sell this product in millions.

I will be interested to see how Audi handles its HMI for EVs. Audi has some great features in its current interior formats, the newest one being able to tell the driver the best speed to make the next traffic light under green, or the time remaining red. I remain convinced that the Tesla Tablet is as much production cost issue and commensurate marketing hype as it is conceived to be the ultimate automotive HMI.

The "tablet" itself is just a Linux box running on an Atom CPU. It's some real basic stuff, probably a couple hundred bucks worth of hardware if it was just off the shelf stuff, double it for the custom design. What we don't know about is the exact specs of their HW2.5 board that sits separate under the rear seats (and we know even less about the brand new HW3 version). But then I've pulled the pricing for G05 with option 6U3: the instrument cluster is listed at $1500, the head unit is $2260, and the display is $4060. Let's say the cost is 1/4 of the part's list price (a generous assumption, right?), and Tesla still has $1500 left over for their autopilot computer hardware before it would hit parity.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

I agree. It shouldn't take a graduate degree to explain and understand a basic product metric like range. Especially if you want to sell this product in millions.
The "tablet" itself is just a Linux box running on an Atom CPU. It's some real basic stuff, probably a couple hundred bucks worth of hardware if it was just off the shelf stuff, double it for the custom design. What we don't know about is the exact specs of their HW2.5 board that sits separate under the rear seats (and we know even less about the brand new HW3 version). But then I've pulled the pricing for G05 with option 6U3: the instrument cluster is listed at $1500, the head unit is $2260, and the display is $4060. Let's say the cost is 1/4 of the part's list price (a generous assumption, right?), and Tesla still has $1500 left over for their autopilot computer hardware before it would hit parity.

Switch design and gauge design, along with instrument panel design and manufacture, are the second-most expensive element of automotive production costs to the base floorpan/suspension components, which are 1st; it's why the Model S uses mostly switch hardware from Mercedes. My friend has a 2018 S4. The gauge cluster in current Audis are state of the art. The gauges are integrated into an attractive instrument panel design and the HMI is intuiative. Tesla could formulate a similar design as Audi and have a just as effective interface for the driver as it does with the tablet. Whether people like the Tesla design is a personal choice. Whether it is seen as cost compromise and if it matters to the buyer is also subjective to personal taste.

[Efthreeoh]

And then theres a blackout for 3 mos and this thing is the worlds biggest coaster

Well, gas production depends on, and gas pumps run on electricity, so there's that.

[Red Bread]

And then theres a blackout for 3 mos and this thing is the worlds biggest coaster

Pretty sure a three month blackout would have more unsettling repercussions than grounding all the EV's.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Pretty sure a three month blackout would have more unsettling repercussions than grounding all the EV's.

Let's all say it together now....



EMP