[DuSh]

Originally Posted by DDD31

No what I’m saying is that it’s a very sad state of affairs that Mazda would now benchmark the Toyota Camry for driving feel over any BMW. If that isn’t a sure sign of BMW’s move away from building the ultimate driving machine and focusing on selling cars to the masses then I don’t know what is. I realize BMW is a business and they’re in business to make money but they’ve really moved away from what made them great in the first place.

They didn't move away, they just added civilized option models (all non M cars) for more people to get a BMW feel. For enthusiasts there's always an M cars. Besides who cares what Mazda compares it's vehicles to lol

[OUGrad05]

Originally Posted by DuSh

They didn't move away, they just added civilized option models (all non M cars) for more people to get a BMW feel. For enthusiasts there's always an M cars. Besides who cares what Mazda compares it's vehicles to lol

This is silly on the part of BMW. Not every enthusiast can afford an M car. In fact, most absolutely cannot afford an M car.

The watering down of the rest of the BMW models and trending them toward luxury while eliminating the feel that made them famous is a problem for enthusiasts as it should be. You can add luxury features and not neuter the car's feel.

Dynamically the limits are still very high on all their products but it feels differently getting there or you have to wait for the suspension to load up to get the chassis feel you used to have (don't get me started on steering feel sir)...

[OUGrad05]

Originally Posted by BMWSeven

Just a few examples - The door pockets are not fully lined (F10/G30) vs fully lined in the E39. The sides of the center console under the armrests are hard plastic vs rubberized in the E39. The leather...depends on the optioned leather - that Dakota base leather feels like pleather. E39 sure beats my E66 (which obviously beats an E60) and somewhat beats my F10 - the F10 does not feel as solidly built. The G30 equals it (some are better, some worse).

In all of them - the plastic covering the seatbelts/B-pillar is hard plastic. I was hoping it would be corrected in the G30...nope.

This could have been me (it's not)...but exactly how I feel up cars

Check the way he runs his fingers to the sides of the dashboard and runs into hard plastic. In the E39 it is thick squishy rubber. Then the door pockets as I mentioned above...arrgh.

That's a good post, there is some hard plastic here and there on the G30 I would have to agree on that. Also the felt lining makes a difference when things are in the pockets/cubbies. I've never checked out the cubbies on an E39.

G30 wins on dash material, door sills and trim, seats (Dakota leather is harder but wears extremely well, I've had it in my car for 3+ years now and it's showing less wear then any other leather seat I've ever sat my ass in), steering wheel, gauge cluster, tactile feel of the buttons and controls (locks, windows, climate) etc...

We may just have to agree to disagree on this sir, but I believe the G30 is better built overall. Jury is still out if window tracks will fails on the G30 like they did on the E39.

[DDD31]

Originally Posted by DuSh

They didn't move away, they just added civilized option models (all non M cars) for more people to get a BMW feel. For enthusiasts there's always an M cars. Besides who cares what Mazda compares it's vehicles to lol

Didn’t move away??? Have you driven older BMW models?? Recent BMW models (including M models) have moved far way from the driving dynamics and feel of past BMWs. The BMW feel was evident in nearly all of their old models regardless of spec. Hell my 1997 318ti had way better driving feel than both my retired F30 and current F10 and the 318ti was one of the lamest BMWs made in recent history.

I’m a huge BMW fan but my current car will probably be my last BMW due to such poor driving dynamics and steering feel exhibited by recent BMW models. I always bought BMWs because their driving feel was definitely superior to the other German marques but now they’re not. If I wanted luxury I’d get a Mercedes and it looks like I’ll have to move on to Porsche for superior driving dynamics and feel.

[DuSh]

Originally Posted by DDD31

Didn’t move away??? Have you driven older BMW models?? Recent BMW models (including M models) have moved far way from the driving dynamics and feel of past BMWs. The BMW feel was evident in nearly all of their old models regardless of spec. Hell my 1997 318ti had way better driving feel than both my retired F30 and current F10 and the 318ti was one of the lamest BMWs made in recent history.

I’m a huge BMW fan but my current car will probably be my last BMW due to such poor driving dynamics and steering feel exhibited by recent BMW models. I always bought BMWs because their driving feel was definitely superior to the other German marques but now they’re not. If I wanted luxury I’d get a Mercedes and it looks like I’ll have to move on to Porsche for superior driving dynamics and feel.

I'm a SUV guy and I enjoy my x5 50i very much. It's second to X5M and is a beast. I don't know a lot of SAV/SUVs out there that can do better (except Porsche maybe). So I'm very happy with what BMW did with it's X line of SAVs.
M cars are excellent too. 7 series were always good, but they were comfort oriented always. So it all comes down to 3 series and 5 series. Yes, BMW went towards gaining more market in those categories, but BMW brand is more than just 3 and 5 series IMHO

P.S. Grass is always greener on the other side - Porsche is guilty too of going soft - I just came from their forum and same complains

[Bt12]

My mother use to beat me (when this was still okay), not to compete with people next to me or beneath me... guess That was lost on Toyoda

[jmhumr]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Step 1- do not design vehicle suspensions around shitty runflats... go with regular tires
Step 2 - add feel back to steering
Step 3 - make the car feel like a solid brick like back in the day
Step 4 - profit

Step 0 probably would need to be “set emissions and environmental laws back 25 years.” I don’t think people appreciate the constraints car companies operate under today. To keep the same price points, BMW had to make compromises. Hence the move to the M-model oversaturation to retain the performance crowd while keeping lawful across the fleet. Sucks, but not entirely BMWs fault.

[MRV99]

I understand why they would so this. I have had a few BMW's over the past 15 years. I have moved to M cars but that had been lately. I can say that the new BMW's have moved away from the traditional BMW feel. I had a new 5 series for a few days due to my car in service. (Friday drop off Monday pickup). Holy cow I thought I had a Lexus. It was peppy and had plenty of power of I6t motor. Everything else was horrible. Steering was beyond numb, the car felt heavy and cumbersome. I seriously felt I was driving old 80's Cadillac Brougham. If my first bmw (01 540 msport) drove like the current 5 series then i would have stayed with Mercedes.

What do you expect, bmw is designing for sales and not the driver.

[Firaxis]

Over here bimmers are the best bang for buck cars (not exactly prestigious in any way), I've had a 335D Xdrive and an M140i so far. They've been incredibly cheap for what they are if nothing else.

Last time I checked you couldn't even buy a Focus ST with Nav for the same price as an M140i. I've been going through a cycle of new cars every year recently, so I've started searching for one that I'd keep longer term. I'm an enthusiast and badges mean nothing to me..

In the "premium" sector, the only car I found that drove subjectively better was the Jaguar XE (transmission aside).. I tested Merc's / Audi's and Alfa's, they were all "good" cars (well some of them) but none of them blew my socks of, neither did I think they were better than the bimmer.

In what we perceive as the "lower class" segment, there were some fantastic drivers cars.. Funnily enough Toyota and Mazda weren't on the top ten list (bar the GT86), I tried an Avensis / Mazda 6 and I'll be err moving swiftly on..

I got quotations on the cars I liked the most and I was stunned.. A 200HP Vauxhall (GM (now Renault?) Astra GTC (Ford Focus rival) came in about the same price as Jag 250 R-Sport, 280 Veloce Giulia and not far off a BMW 340i.. This was far from the only one.!

From searching about it became apparent BMW aren't at the top of dynamics tree. Although in terms of cost, practicality, economy, interior, engines and handling they are a great package that IMO can't be beat and it helps them in a global market where most people didn't even know a 1-series was RWD..

Mazda can copy whoever they want but there's a bigger picture in the global market, just ask Alfa about that one.. On a contradictory note, it does go against what made the successful in the first place though being the "ultimate driving machine".

[DDD31]

Originally Posted by Firaxis

From searching about it became apparent BMW aren't at the top of dynamics tree. Although in terms of cost, practicality, economy, interior, engines and handling they are a great package that IMO can't be beat and it helps them in a global market where most people didn't even know a 1-series was RWD..

I agree, as an overall package BMW still makes a very good car but they just don't stand out as much compared to the competition (especially in driving dynamics) like they used to. I'm sure BMW corporate is thrilled that their sales have increased tremendously but they are slowly ignoring the enthusiasts that put them where they are today.

[Firaxis]

Originally Posted by DDD31

I agree, as an overall package BMW still makes a very good car but they just don't stand out as much compared to the competition (especially in driving dynamics) like they used to. I'm sure BMW corporate is thrilled that their sales have increased tremendously but they are slowly ignoring the enthusiasts that put them where they are today.

I can't see it changing, catering to enthusiasts is an expensive business especially to the majority who will never care. They have an almost paradoxical reputation where they are seen as a step above the common, although here at least they're probably the most common car on the road..

Whilst this voodoo continues the trend follows in an almost ouroboros fashion and BMW have little reason to change that.

Although a lot of this must of come from word of mouth from enthusiasts, the "ultimate driving machine" was built on a foundation.

Whilst I believe BMW deserve every bit of their success, if you want to see things change you gotta vote with your mouth and wallet.

Support the likes of Jag that put X billion into creating a platform that hardly anyone buys, complete with things like dual wishbone suspension that only a fraction of us care about. Speaking of, I traded my M140i in for a Jag today ..!

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by jmhumr

Step 0 probably would need to be “set emissions and environmental laws back 25 years.” I don’t think people appreciate the constraints car companies operate under today. To keep the same price points, BMW had to make compromises. Hence the move to the M-model oversaturation to retain the performance crowd while keeping lawful across the fleet. Sucks, but not entirely BMWs fault.

Steering feel is nothing but programming. It cost the same to program with, or without, feel.

BMWs new motto should be "The Ultimate Driving Machine"*


* only applies if spending north of 100k.