[Pig Farmer]

All this talk about fear reminds me of the "panic reaction" discussed in the book Twist of the Wrist. In the book, Keith Code explains how an individual's natural panic reaction is often the cause of a crash. For example, grabbing a handful of brake when someone unexpectedly cuts across your lane (which will happen) can be catastrophic. This book is definately worth a read. The section on a tire's "credit card of grip" is also very important to understand. You may think you understand how a tire will react to inputs having driven a car, but I assure you it is 10 times more pronounced on a bike, and 100 time less forgiving when you get it wrong.

Unfortunately, since the Keith Code is a road racer first and a writer second, many of his lessons are quite vague to an inexperienced rider. Some of his lessons will only make sense once you've crossed over the limit (i.e. crashed).

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Pig Farmer

All this talk about fear reminds me of the "panic reaction" discussed in the book Twist of the Wrist. In the book, Keith Code explains how an individual's natural panic reaction is often the cause of a crash. For example, grabbing a handful of brake when someone unexpectedly cuts across your lane (which will happen) can be catastrophic. This book is definately worth a read. The section on a tire's "credit card of grip" is also very important to understand. You may think you understand how a tire will react to inputs having driven a car, but I assure you it is 10 times more pronounced on a bike, and 100 time less forgiving when you get it wrong.

Unfortunately, since the Keith Code is a road racer first and a writer second, many of his lessons are quite vague to an inexperienced rider. Some of his lessons will only make sense once you've crossed over the limit (i.e. crashed).

Yes. I have both Twist of the Wrists books. I even have one of them autographed by him when I was at VIR one year doing their 2 day camp. Reading is one thing. But actually having coaching and a controlled environment to work on the skills talked about in his book are another. Since writing his books, Keith has come up with a bunch of new techniques and drills. One of the best years I had there was when Keith was doing my level 4 consult and was out on track with me. I didn't know he was following me around the track until we went into the classroom debrief. Gave me a lot of spot on advice.

[Ickdeep]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Yes. I have both Twist of the Wrists books. I even have one of them autographed by him when I was at VIR one year doing their 2 day camp. Reading is one thing. But actually having coaching and a controlled environment to work on the skills talked about in his book are another. Since writing his books, Keith has come up with a bunch of new techniques and drills. One of the best years I had there was when Keith was doing my level 4 consult and was out on track with me. I didn't know he was following me around the track until we went into the classroom debrief. Gave me a lot of spot on advice.

I've watched his video's over and over before I started riding. It was very useful (until i got to the track part as I'm not going to be tracking it)

Some proper photos of the bike

[kunzjob]

Are you a pilot?

[gjm120]

I have 50 yr old Brit bikes as a hobby so am not versed on modern sport bikes. BUT I hopped on a Ducati Monster once and immediately felt like I could toss it around. It was the smallest displacement Monster - 650cc I think. They sound great too.

[3GFX]

I didn't read through the whole thread....two or three pages but...

Originally Posted by varkdriver

...a used, Suzuki SV650. Easy and fun to ride, plenty of power and something that you can live with a long time, but sell on if you want more.

...

This is how I started out.

Originally Posted by kunzjob

...SV650. I grew up riding dirt bikes and this was my first street bike. ...Very easy to ride, confidence inspiring, super cheap to maintain. ...

This is why. But even someone who hasn't ridden could start on the SV.

Originally Posted by Ric in RVA

SV650...great bike. Friendly, competent. Makes a great track day bike. You will learn how to actually ride.

Competent friendly bike. It sneaks in with cheaper insurance as well because it doesn't have an "R" in its name.

Originally Posted by wntrsnowg

Like others have mentioned, I would rec getting a 300cc-class bike as a first. 250's dont have enough power, but the 300's are in a sweet spot...

A used Susuki SV650 ain't bad either but its heavier, more torque, faster, not as balanced of a package IMO. There are pros and cons but cant go wrong with either, just decide which is better for you.

Buy good gear and wear it every time you ride! Plan on spending at least $600 on gear ($300 helmet, $100 gloves, $200 jacket, good boots, good thick jeans)

If you want to start lighter/smaller, expect to want a bigger bike after a year or two of riding. 300 is better with weight and tires, plus it could manage some highway trips. Some 250's can't handle a long highway ride and can be scary in that condition.

Again the SV650 / SVF are balanced bikes.

Good gear is a must.

Happy Trails!

[Mikecom32]

What about a KTM RC390? Great looking bike, and still a reasonable amount of power.

http://www.ktm.com/us/supersport/rc-390-1/

If you're looking for something more upright, SV650 or FZ-07 would get my vote.

Oh, and I highly recommend ticking the ABS option, regardless of what you ride.

[litxus]

Since this is your first bike, just take it easy. I did have a 02 Triumph 600TT as my first bike and crashed it first season. Then took time off and now back with SV650 which I should have done the fist time. Sure it is slower at top end, but I believe it is way more manageable as a first / second bike. As others said to ride 600cc super sport without fear will take a while and I see a lot of people get these and then ride scared all the time.

In comparison 600cc inline 4 will have most power north of 6k or even higher, which starting out you will never use, as it will be scary as f..k. It is almost like driving your car and always shifting at 3k, that is if you do that you are not using it really if that makes sense.

And brand new bikes with all the nannies are easier to manage, as they have power settings, traction control, ABS, and a bunch of other stuff which saves you, but older bikes have none of that and faster ones are not forgiving at all.

[48Laws]

"Remove before flight" except...bike won't start without it. Lol cool nonetheless.

[angelr]

Throttles aren't on-off switches, if you're predisposed to do dumb things then I still maintain that you'll find a way to do yourself in regardless of displacement. Same applies to cars, you don't need to be put behind the wheel of an 8 second car to kill yourself. Power is rarely the wild card other than leaving cars and coffee or similar in a stang....but I digress

[zx10guy]

You're right. Throttles are not on off switches. But twisting the throttle of a liter bike a 1/4 turn versus a 1/4 turn on a 600 is going to produce different power delivery. Or for that matter an inline versus a V-twin. It's that power curve relative the twist of the throttle is where one can get in over their head. This means the margin of error is that much more narrower on a high horsepower/torque sport bike.

Comparing driving a car and riding a bike is not even close. Just the static nature of a car...you're not going to crash or damage a car just having it stand still. You can drop a bike standing still. Add motion, less contact patch than a car, body position, counter-steering, throttle control, etc, etc....there's a lot more going on in just riding the bike without even discussing going fast.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by litxus

Since this is your first bike, just take it easy. I did have a 02 Triumph 600TT as my first bike and crashed it first season. Then took time off and now back with SV650 which I should have done the fist time. Sure it is slower at top end, but I believe it is way more manageable as a first / second bike. As others said to ride 600cc super sport without fear will take a while and I see a lot of people get these and then ride scared all the time.

In comparison 600cc inline 4 will have most power north of 6k or even higher, which starting out you will never use, as it will be scary as f..k. It is almost like driving your car and always shifting at 3k, that is if you do that you are not using it really if that makes sense.

And brand new bikes with all the nannies are easier to manage, as they have power settings, traction control, ABS, and a bunch of other stuff which saves you, but older bikes have none of that and faster ones are not forgiving at all.

Electronics on modern bikes are amazing but they can't overcome stupid.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

You're right. Throttles are not on off switches. But twisting the throttle of a liter bike a 1/4 turn versus a 1/4 turn on a 600 is going to produce different power delivery. Or for that matter an inline versus a V-twin. It's that power curve relative the twist of the throttle is where one can get in over their head. This means the margin of error is that much more narrower on a high horsepower/torque sport bike.

Comparing driving a car and riding a bike is not even close. Just the static nature of a car...you're not going to crash or damage a car just having it stand still. You can drop a bike standing still. Add motion, less contact patch than a car, body position, counter-steering, throttle control, etc, etc....there's a lot more going on in just riding the bike without even discussing going fast.

I'd like to expand on zx10's comments here, because this really is what the discussion should be about rather than engine size and chassis type. To qualify my comments, I've been riding motorcycles since I was 14, so that's going on 40 years now. I'm well over 180,000 street miles. Before my street riding starting at age 20 or there abouts, I spent a lot of hours on the dirt and a bunch of hours illegally riding the neighborhood streets in the snow. What you learn from riding dirt (and on snow) is vehicle control. Riding fast on dirt, in the woods, brings trail surprises like ravines, felled trees, and horses, among others, which helps one learn to control panic and crash softly (if required). ALL OF THIS is essential to survive on the street. Street riding is completely different than dirt riding and completely different than car driving. I'm not sure what they teach in riding school, but the first rule of street riding is: Do not put yourself in a situation where a car can run into you. Second rule is: Do not ride above your skill level so that you run into things (the road surface counts here too). To sum those up: Don't hit anything, and don't let anything hit you.

If you drive (a car) with the attitude that "accidents happen", then get off the bike and sell it. All accidents are caused by error. This means you are relying on other drivers to avoid hitting you, which is when you get run over and hurt, or killed. This translates into learning how to "read" traffic. Most car drivers (cage drivers we call them) do not understand this concept of reading traffic. It's far worst now with most young drivers texting half the time they are driving, and with an attitude that "I'm safe with my nice little seat belt, airbags, and steel around me", so they see little consequence in hitting things.

Your job is to remove your error and defeat errors of others.

Finally, you need to learn how to "read cars". Reading cars is a subset of reading traffic. Reading cars is very complex. It's multifaceted, it involves understanding what type of people drive what types of cars, mirror placement (if you can see the drivers face in their side mirror), angle of the front tires, and condition of the body (e.g. if the car has dents it means the driver sucks at car placement). This means you have to stereotype and discriminate against people. In today's PC society, that is not taught nor welcomed, but if you want to ride on the street, it's absolutely necessary.

As a new motorcyclist, what you are essentially trying to do is learn to control a motorcycle while at the same time ride on the street in traffic. You have little experience doing either. Knowing how to ride a bicycle helps because the vehicle dynamics are the same (like when to steer - low speed and when to countersteer - high (faster) speed) and the small amount of the gyroscopic effect a bicycle has; it's far more pronounced on a motorcycle. Driving a car in traffic, while you think may help, it doesn't; you know to stop at red traffic lights, and stop at stop signs, but that's about it. Assume every car can (and will) hit you. The very last thing you do is ride "with" traffic; you must ride "beyond" traffic. That means constantly moving about in reference to traffic, i.e. to not be stationary with it. If you are stationary with traffic, that means you are a sitting target to get hit.

All of this said is to explain that get a used, small displacement (600 CC), general motorcycle (normally called a UJM), and have fun. There is a ton to learn and you'll have a blast learning it. Getting a motorcycle that is far above in capability to your skill set (thinking you'll grow into it) is pointless and makes you error prone. You need to learn how to ride first (bike control and traffic reading) before going fast.

Good luck with it.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

All accidents are caused by error.

Your job is to remove your error and defeat errors of others.

Finally, you need to learn how to "read cars". Reading cars is a subset of reading traffic. Reading cars is very complex. It's multifaceted, it involves understanding what type of people drive what types of cars, mirror placement (if you can see the drivers face in their side mirror), angle of the front tires, and condition of the body (e.g. if the car has dents it means the driver sucks at car placement). This means you have to stereotype and discriminate against people. In today's PC society, that is not taught nor welcomed, but if you want to ride on the street, it's absolutely necessary.

This post is so spot-on it makes me smile ...

... except I disagree with one sentence: "All accidents are caused by error." That's not true because of two things:
1). Often, cage drivers have such contempt for motorcyclists that they will purposefully put them at risk. That's not error. That's purposeful deviant behavior.
2). Sometimes, something goes wrong that a motorcyclist can do nothing about and can't possibly predict. The first time a neighborhood dog jumps out at you from the bushes -- much less from a ditch in the middle of nowhere in southeastern Kansas while you're doing 90 or so, like what happened to me (thankfully no accident, but a VERY close call) -- you'll understand what I mean. That's not error. That's chaos theory at work.

The most sage part of the post is the bit above about profiling. Yeah, it's not PC, but it keeps a rider alive. It is a vital skill. If you're the least bit uncomfortable about it, do not ride -- because, frankly, a good biker realizes that certain types of people drive a certain way in certain vehicles, the same way certain vehicles drive certain ways depending on who is driving them.

... and I'm sorry, angelr , but I consider your attitude toward new riders in general to be overly optimistic. I'm of the opinion that literbikes should not be sold to first-time riders, period. Why? Because I've seen people die because they couldn't handle the power on the street. Restraint is not possessed by everybody -- as my statement about biker contempt among cage drivers proves from the other side of the coin.

[angelr]

And I've seen them die on sub 300cc bikes... power is not the issue. Education and a sense of self preservation is what is needed. But I digress, to each their own.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by angelr

And I've seen them die on sub 300cc bikes... power is not the issue. Education and a sense of self preservation is what is needed. But I digress, to each their own.

Nah, I disagree. A liter bike is completely different than a 300 CC motorcycle.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

This post is so spot-on it makes me smile ...

... except I disagree with one sentence: "All accidents are caused by error." That's not true because of two things:
1). Often, cage drivers have such contempt for motorcyclists that they will purposefully put them at risk. That's not error. That's purposeful deviant behavior.
2). Sometimes, something goes wrong that a motorcyclist can do nothing about and can't possibly predict. The first time a neighborhood dog jumps out at you from the bushes -- much less from a ditch in the middle of nowhere in southeastern Kansas while you're doing 90 or so, like what happened to me (thankfully no accident, but a VERY close call) -- you'll understand what I mean. That's not error. That's chaos theory at work.

The most sage part of the post is the bit above about profiling. Yeah, it's not PC, but it keeps a rider alive. It is a vital skill. If you're the least bit uncomfortable about it, do not ride -- because, frankly, a good biker realizes that certain types of people drive a certain way in certain vehicles, the same way certain vehicles drive certain ways depending on who is driving them.

... and I'm sorry, angelr , but I consider your attitude toward new riders in general to be overly optimistic. I'm of the opinion that literbikes should not be sold to first-time riders, period. Why? Because I've seen people die because they couldn't handle the power on the street. Restraint is not possessed by everybody -- as my statement about biker contempt among cage drivers proves from the other side of the coin.

Number 1, I'll still contend it is preventable. It is still your job to eliminate your error and control the errors of others . Your Number 2 (okay that didn't sound exactly right ) I'll agree with. It is chaos theory, but I was really focused on the traffic side of situational control; maybe I should have been more specific and wrote "All traffic accidents are caused by error". Lawrence Grodsky was killed by a deer in Texas, which in 2006, I found devastatingly shocking. That same year I hit a deer in my then almost new 325i; since then I've collected two others in minor damage incidents . My theory is deer are like asteroids.

But I'll stand by the premise that a good motorcyclist controls traffic, he doesn't let traffic control him.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

This post is so spot-on it makes me smile ...

... except I disagree with one sentence: "All accidents are caused by error." That's not true because of two things:
1). Often, cage drivers have such contempt for motorcyclists that they will purposefully put them at risk. That's not error. That's purposeful deviant behavior.
2). Sometimes, something goes wrong that a motorcyclist can do nothing about and can't possibly predict. The first time a neighborhood dog jumps out at you from the bushes -- much less from a ditch in the middle of nowhere in southeastern Kansas while you're doing 90 or so, like what happened to me (thankfully no accident, but a VERY close call) -- you'll understand what I mean. That's not error. That's chaos theory at work.

The most sage part of the post is the bit above about profiling. Yeah, it's not PC, but it keeps a rider alive. It is a vital skill. If you're the least bit uncomfortable about it, do not ride -- because, frankly, a good biker realizes that certain types of people drive a certain way in certain vehicles, the same way certain vehicles drive certain ways depending on who is driving them.

... and I'm sorry, angelr , but I consider your attitude toward new riders in general to be overly optimistic. I'm of the opinion that literbikes should not be sold to first-time riders, period. Why? Because I've seen people die because they couldn't handle the power on the street. Restraint is not possessed by everybody -- as my statement about biker contempt among cage drivers proves from the other side of the coin.

Number 1, I'll still contend it is preventable. It is still your job to eliminate your error and control the errors of others . Your Number 2 (okay that didn't sound exactly right ) I'll agree with. It is chaos theory, but I was really focused on the traffic side of situational control; maybe I should have been more specific and wrote "All traffic accidents are caused by error". Lawrence Grodsky was killed by a deer in Texas, which in 2006, I found devastatingly shocking. That same year I hit a deer in my then almost new 325i; since then I've collected two others in minor damage incidents . My theory is deer are like asteroids.

But I'll stand by the premise that a good motorcyclist controls traffic, he doesn't let traffic control him. In fact I'll go so far in saying a great motorcyclist uses traffic to his advantage.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

This post is so spot-on it makes me smile ...

... except I disagree with one sentence: "All accidents are caused by error." That's not true because of two things:
1). Often, cage drivers have such contempt for motorcyclists that they will purposefully put them at risk. That's not error. That's purposeful deviant behavior.
2). Sometimes, something goes wrong that a motorcyclist can do nothing about and can't possibly predict. The first time a neighborhood dog jumps out at you from the bushes -- much less from a ditch in the middle of nowhere in southeastern Kansas while you're doing 90 or so, like what happened to me (thankfully no accident, but a VERY close call) -- you'll understand what I mean. That's not error. That's chaos theory at work.

The most sage part of the post is the bit above about profiling. Yeah, it's not PC, but it keeps a rider alive. It is a vital skill. If you're the least bit uncomfortable about it, do not ride -- because, frankly, a good biker realizes that certain types of people drive a certain way in certain vehicles, the same way certain vehicles drive certain ways depending on who is driving them.

... and I'm sorry, angelr , but I consider your attitude toward new riders in general to be overly optimistic. I'm of the opinion that literbikes should not be sold to first-time riders, period. Why? Because I've seen people die because they couldn't handle the power on the street. Restraint is not possessed by everybody -- as my statement about biker contempt among cage drivers proves from the other side of the coin.

Number 1, I'll still contend it is preventable. It is still your job to eliminate your error and control the errors of others . Your Number 2 (okay that didn't sound exactly right ) I'll agree with. It is chaos theory, but I was really focused on the traffic side of situational control; maybe I should have been more specific and wrote "All traffic accidents are caused by error". Lawrence Grodsky was killed by a deer in Texas, which in 2006, I found devastatingly shocking. That same year I hit a deer in my then almost new 325i; since then I've collected two others in minor damage incidents. My theory is deer are like asteroids.

But I'll stand by the premise that a good motorcyclist controls traffic, he doesn't let traffic control him. In fact I'll go so far in saying a great motorcyclist uses traffic to his advantage.

[RichZ4]

^ Yep riding a bike is like playing asteroids. If you think cars respect or see you'll find out the hard way and it's going to cost you more than another quarter..

I used to own a bike shop and found the best beginner bikes are more upright like a Rebel 250-450 or a Suzuki Savage or an Intruder 800 - 1400 and they're cheap..

Go to riding school if you never rode for sure and the actual best way to learn is on the dirt with gear on. You'll learn faster the dynamics of bikes.

I'll add... I own a bunch of collectible bikes and the only one I ride is a moped around where I work not even on main roads.. People are just too distracted and wasted most the time or both..

[Efthreeoh]

Apologies for jacking this thread in advance, but I figure this is where most of our fellow motorcyclists are....

That said. Looking at picking up a 2014 Honda Valkyrie. Anyone here have one or has ridden one, and what is your opinion of it?

Thanks. And again, apologies for the thread jack.

Maybe the Mods should create a Motorrad Subforum