[GuidoK]

How the hell do you remove the effects of the team?!?
One of the main roles of a driver is to aid the team into building a better car. He's not just there to move the steering wheel you know....

That's why schumacher is probably(?) the best driver. Look at where ferrari was when he came to Ferrari, and how steadily he closed the gap to the other constructors to finally get 6 championships in a row (it took him 3 years or so to get the first one and get the car to that level).
Of course it's a complete team efford, but the driver plays a big role in that.
A good driver is more than a muppet that holds the wheel. He's an advisor to the designers and techs.
That way the driver gets a car that is perfectly adapted to his needs. That's why F1 is a team sport.

From a sporting pov Senna and Prost were the best (or at least the rivalry between the two). They didnt gave into anything. Trying to be the fastest not only in the race but even in the training etc.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

How the hell do you remove the effects of the team?!?
One of the main roles of a driver is to aid the team into building a better car. He's not just there to move the steering wheel you know....

That's why schumacher is probably(?) the best driver. Look at where ferrari was when he came to Ferrari, and how steadily he closed the gap to the other constructors to finally get 6 championships in a row (it took him 3 years or so to get the first one and get the car to that level).
Of course it's a complete team efford, but the driver plays a big role in that.
A good driver is more than a muppet that holds the wheel. He's an advisor to the designers and techs.
That way the driver gets a car that is perfectly adapted to his needs. That's why F1 is a team sport.

From a sporting pov Senna and Prost were the best (or at least the rivalry between the two). They didnt gave into anything. Trying to be the fastest not only in the race but even in the training etc.

you seem to be simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing ...

the point is, even if I did my best I probably can't beat schumacher no matter which team I'm on, but I might do better on a better team. Thus a "good driver" is one who consistently performs well with multiple teams and not just does better but consistently wins ... i.e., he get along with most and does the job you're talking about.

If a driver only gets along with a few people on a specific team, hard to say that he's an objectively "good driver", i.e., he's a driver only one team wants.

A team is a team, but it's also far to judge the drivers on their own.

[angelr]

Fangio is in the top spot...I concur.

[ptack]

Interesting. I wonder how Vettel and Alonso would compare if Alonso were still with Ferrari? Alonso has flashes of brilliance, but Vettel seems to be more consistent.

[six_timer]

They say that rain is the great equalizer, and many of the top drivers on this list are superior in the rain.

[M3Bimmer77]

I have always wanted to see Hamilton in battle with a middle pack guy and we saw it in China. The guy finally had all the excuses not to make it to the top. And by the way he is more Morrocan than English.

It would be fun to see the 4 best drivers all racing with the same car. That way we know who is really the best.

[Chez]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

[*]Aryton Senna (Brazil)

I always preferred his brother, Ayrton.

[Chez]

Originally Posted by M3Bimmer77

Hamilton...

.....And by the way he is more Morrocan than English.

Yeah, no.

Born: January 7, 1985 (age 31), Stevenage, United Kingdom

[solstice]

Originally Posted by M3Bimmer77

I have always wanted to see Hamilton in battle with a middle pack guy and we saw it in China. The guy finally had all the excuses not to make it to the top. And by the way he is more Morrocan than English.

It would be fun to see the 4 best drivers all racing with the same car. That way we know who is really the best.

Of the current world champions in F1 we've seen some in the same cars.

HAM is faster than BUT
VET is faster than RAI ( Though RIC is faster than VET... )
ALO is faster than RAI
HAM and ALO is equally fast

[fcman]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

Hmm i cant agree. He was exceptionally wet and dry while others were exceptional only in the dry. Senna is the king of Monaco, Brazil and San Marino all mostly in the dry. He consistently started in the front row. The fact that he only raced 10 seasons, 5 less than Schumi and is only 3 poles behind him, in second, for life time poles says it all. No one else touches his speed going in and out of corners.

To put it into perspective of how fast Senna was;
Senna 65 poles 40% in 162 entries
Shumi 68 poles 22% in 308 entries
Hamilton 51 poles 30% in 170 entries
Sebas 46 poles 29% in 161 entries

Fastest driver gets pole. Fastest driver doesn't always win, that has more to do with pit strategy, crew, reliability and luck.

I am a huge Senna fan, he was absolutely on another level in terms of car control. But being the fastest and being the best are not the same. In the sim racing community there is a term "hot lappers", people who can post outrageous lap times, but have trouble translating that raw speed into race results, and it's not just pit stops/fuel/tires/car etc.. a driver has to have a good mind for strategy and make quick decisions to win races, sometimes that means driving slower, or giving up a corner, which is something you didn't really see Senna willing to do. Senna was an amazing hotlapper, and a top 5 racer easily, but not the number 1 racer. Senna made pole 40% of the time, but Fangio WON 46% of his races, that's simply inhuman.

[angelr]

Originally Posted by fcman

I am a huge Senna fan, he was absolutely on another level in terms of car control. But being the fastest and being the best are not the same. In the sim racing community there is a term "hot lappers", people who can post outrageous lap times, but have trouble translating that raw speed into race results, and it's not just pit stops/fuel/tires/car etc.. a driver has to have a good mind for strategy and make quick decisions to win races, sometimes that means driving slower, or giving up a corner, which is something you didn't really see Senna willing to do. Senna was an amazing hotlapper, and a top 5 racer easily, but not the number 1 racer. Senna made pole 40% of the time, but Fangio WON 46% of his races, that's simply inhuman.

It was a drastically different time obviously but Fangio was able to bring it all together. The famous clip of him making up all that ground after they struggled with the knock off in the pits never fails to amaze me. Senna and Schumacher are both amazing as well but Fangio has always been my top pick.

[kprocivic]

the only reason i know anything about f1 was Senna. I think he's the bestest.

[angelr]

Originally Posted by kprocivic

the only reason i know anything about f1 was Senna. I think he's the bestest.

He was the reason an entire generation got interested, at least for a time, in f1. I watched old racing from the 50's and 60's when I was younger since the amount of sliding around they did on the old bias ply tires made for very entertaining racing. 4 wheel drifts through every corner.

[Chez]

Originally Posted by angelr

He was the reason an entire generation got interested, at least for a time, in f1. I watched old racing from the 50's and 60's when I was younger since the amount of sliding around they did on the old bias ply tires made for very entertaining racing. 4 wheel drifts through every corner.

I'd respectfully disagree. Perhaps this depends where you live(d).

Growing up in the UK, F1 is generally far more popular than it is in the US, but it was a time when Nigel Mansell was around along with other great foreign drivers (Piquet, Prost etc).

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by solstice

Of the current world champions in F1 we've seen some in the same cars.

HAM is faster than BUT
VET is faster than RAI ( Though RIC is faster than VET... )
ALO is faster than RAI
HAM and ALO is equally fast

That's a far-too-simplistic comparison. Consider the following:
1) Age - Older drivers get slower, Kimi in his prime was a faster driver. Just look at Schumy - the fastest in his prime, and much faster than any teammate, yet Nico outperformed him at the end.
2) Luck - mechanical failures occur, other cars hit you, pit crews mess-up, each driver gets a different race strategy. VET got most of the bad luck compared to RIC.
3) Bias - A team's 2 cars will always suit one driver better than the other, for various reasons.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by five_timer

That's a far-too-simplistic comparison. Consider the following:
1) Age - Older drivers get slower, Kimi in his prime was a faster driver. Just look at Schumy - the fastest in his prime, and much faster than any teammate, yet Nico outperformed him at the end.
2) Luck - mechanical failures occur, other cars hit you, pit crews mess-up, each driver gets a different race strategy. VET got most of the bad luck compared to RIC.
3) Bias - A team's 2 cars will always suit one driver better than the other, for various reasons.

And someone live in a cleaner city, another wear better shoes. Obviously it will never be exactly the same for both in a comparison but they drove at least a full season together and at this point of time the result was clear. Good enough for me.

[M3Bimmer77]

Originally Posted by Chez

Yeah, no.

Born: January 7, 1985 (age 31), Stevenage, United Kingdom

That's BS. Probably you got it from wiki!!! Lol

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

I never seen him race live, obviously, or especially during a full season to get a feel for his car and the competition. Also, tough to use %s in his case bc he raced significantly less then anyone else on the list. If i were to take a 6 season sample from Senna or Schumi their win %s would be significantly higher.

Now this is not to say Fangio is or is not the greatest I just cant make a judgment bc I did not see enough of his races but based on his #s the man looks like a machine behind the wheel.

I'm sure that our "Max-Verstappen" is a future F1 champion .
Last year he drove always in the points in a shitty car .
BTW...And all this without driver license !
And who did this before in the F1 history ?
Put him in the merc and the rest would see only dust..

[Chez]

Originally Posted by M3Bimmer77

That's BS. Probably you got it from wiki!!! Lol

lol.. except I also know he was born in Stevenage.. it's fairly close to where I lived in the UK.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

Dont forget...


Only once did he have a semi reliable car.

As a young Canadian, I remember how he captured national attention and passion in a way few others ever did. He sparked the interest of an entire generation of us in F1 and racing in general and the others that followed (Jacques Villeneuve and Paul Tracy most notably) became icons because we viewed race car drivers in the light of other sporting heroes because of Gilles Villeneuve.

Although he never did drive F1, any thought of Gilles Villeneuve and dying too soon requires a mention of Greg Moore ... probably would have been the greatest driver of his generation had he lived and, like Jacques Villeneuve, might have been one of the very few to be an Indy 500 and an F1 champ.