[cc3]

In the chase for sales and profit I feel the M brand is becoming diluted. We have M135, M235 , M Sport on just about every model and now the proper M cars like the M3 appear to be now being designed to appeal to a wider market with a diluted driving experience hence the debate over exhaust sound etc

Maybe time for BMW to cash in and have a sub brand of M that looks after people who want something different from the mass market with
Limited edition models like the 1M and CSL

[paddy335]

Yawn

[XtoM]

Very British thing this, I've seen lots of examples of people complaining about XY&Z being diluted.

"I'm special, I want an exclusive lifestyle"

[CanAutM3]

They sell Burberry umbrellas at Costco, the brand is getting diluted

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by gaz26

In the chase for sales and profit I feel the M brand is becoming diluted. We have M135, M235 , M Sport on just about every model and now the proper M cars like the M3 appear to be now being designed to appeal to a wider market with a diluted driving experience hence the debate over exhaust sound etc

Maybe time for BMW to cash in and have a sub brand of M that looks after people who want something different from the mass market with
Limited edition models like the 1M and CSL

With over 60 % of new BMW automobile sales opting for the M Sport packet I would not say brand dilution. But more as progress. M is much more a commercial entity than it was 10 years ago.
The customer has made BMW M. What it is today.

[cc3]

Originally Posted by XtoM

Very British thing this, I've seen lots of examples of people complaining about XY&Z being diluted.

"I'm special, I want an exclusive lifestyle"

You completely miss the point nothing to do with lifestyle or nationality. The point I was making is that M cars are just becoming too bland. Had an M6 for a while nice car but just too many nanny electronics,too much weight and the car just lacked any soul. I would like to see BMW build a few more cars with a bit of edge that's why I traded an M3 for a 1M. M3 GTS was a step in the right direction although they asked silly money for what was on offer. A progression like Porsche has with 911, GT3 and GT3RS would be good. Hope you enjoy your M4.

[Romo]

+1

The same reason I did trade my E92 M3 in for a E82 1M. The difference couldn`t be bigger, the M3 is like a supertanker compared to a 1M.

M cars are great, but the ever growing size and weight isn`t what I m looking for in a car, although the M2 could do the job here. But it`s still weird that the same 3 series is growing and growing, and for a same kind a car you must go back to a 1er or 2er

Now an M4 is listed for almost the same weight (which is high end engineering for such a big car) as an 1M, but its huge wheelbase will lack 1M agility.

Sportiness, agility, a compact overall size, the 1M has it, the M235i, on paper a possible successor, has grown in size once again, why am I not surprised.

[Kuwen]

Please put me in the category of people who are 100% satisfied/excited with the size of the upcoming M3/M4 as it can actually be used as a car for four people.

[tdizzle]

It's business. People want bigger cars (at least in the US) so BMW is building them bigger. With engineering magic they're making them weigh about the same as the old ones though.

From an enthusiast standpoint, sure we'd love to have an extra car that's small and agile like the 1M (I'd love one). But the Ms have always seemed (to me anyway) to be an super performance version of the regular series cars. Use high quality lightweight materials, upgrade the suspension/engine/tranny, etc but the car is still based on the regular models.

As the public demands bigger cars for the regular models, the Ms have had nothing to do but go bigger also. Otherwise they'd have to redesign a completely new car and a M3 or M5 wouldn't be what they were intended before (and probably cost a lot more given the number of units compared to the regular models sold).

In the end it's all about giving the majority what they want to make the most money. There will always be those that want something specialized for the super enthusiast but there isn't much money in that due to the low volume and high cost.

I do think that since they have the 1 series they can give us what we want from a size/agility standpoint. But unfortunately, they'll probably use the same quality of materials inside as the 1 series, so don't expect a 'luxury' car like you'd get from the M5. Also, I don't expect them do drop in the M4 engine in it because a M2 with a M4 engine would severely cut into the M4 sales. It is nice to dream though.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by Kuwen

Please put me in the category of people who are 100% satisfied/excited with the size of the upcoming M3/M4 as it can actually be used as a car for four people.

You are in the majority of the general population. Probably in the bottom 50% of the so called 'enthusiast" population that frequents this board though.

I think most people would prefer the M4/M3 size if they use it for more daily duty than an extra car that they don't plan on taking more than 1 passenger.

Of course, not sure why many people would choose a 1 series size M car as anything other than their weekend cruiser. It's not a very practically sized car to move more than 2 people in. And if you can afford an extra 'fun' car, why not go for a Porsche or something even more performance oriented given the M4 isn't exactly cheap.

[YolkyPalky]

Originally Posted by gaz26

and now the proper M cars like the M3 appear to be now being designed to appeal to a wider market

Yawn....BMW is a mass-market producer of cars, and that includes the M variants. If you want something more "special" (however you define that) maybe a Ferrari or Lambo will give you the exclusivity you desire.

[Kuwen]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

You are in the majority of the general population. Probably in the bottom 50% of the so called 'enthusiast" population that frequents this board though.

I think most people would prefer the M4/M3 size if they use it for more daily duty than an extra car that they don't plan on taking more than 1 passenger.

Of course, not sure why many people would choose a 1 series size M car as anything other than their weekend cruiser. It's not a very practically sized car to move more than 2 people in. And if you can afford an extra 'fun' car, why not go for a Porsche or something even more performance oriented given the M4 isn't exactly cheap.

I would agree with your assessment, if I only needed 2 seats I think my focus would shift heavily towards a Z06/Z07 (Corvettes were my first love as a teenager) or something really tidy like a Cayman. But what makes the M3 so brilliant is that I'm really sacrificing very little and at least in my own mind, that's what makes an M an M.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by Kuwen

I would agree with your assessment, if I only needed 2 seats I think my focus would shift heavily towards a Z06/Z07 (Corvettes were my first love as a teenager) or something really tidy like a Cayman. But what makes the M3 so brilliant is that I'm really sacrificing very little and at least in my own mind, that's what makes an M an M.

Precisely what I was getting at. For most people what they're doing with the M cars are exactly what people want from a car. You can actually use it every day and bring some friends along with you while having a fairly luxurious ride.

Then when you want to go fast and/or zoom around town or on the track you can do that faster than most people's skill would be safe.

Most cars you can have one or the other, but not both. If you want pure performance M isn't the way to go, same can be said for luxury. But if you want both, there aren't many better options.

[eeeboy]

the Lexus line is the same BS...a IS350 with a big F on the side because it has some cheesy F package??

[paddy335]

I yawn at these discussions cos bmw has never really been about providing niche vehicles ( despite occasionals going back to the likes of the M1) and there are lots of other options if for example you want a lightweight car with no creature comforts. Its just not the market they are after.

[sparkyg]

Get a GT3.

Thats a niche vehicle, but you gotta pay to play.

[cc3]

Originally Posted by paddy335

I yawn at these discussions cos bmw has never really been about providing niche vehicles ( despite occasionals going back to the likes of the M1) and there are lots of other options if for example you want a lightweight car with no creature comforts. Its just not the market they are after.

You should get more sleep!

Here are a few really great niche BMW's.

M1
1M
E9 CSL
850CSi
M3 CSL
M3 GTS
M3 Sport EVO111
2002 Turbo
328
1600GT
Z8

[HBspeed]

The only niche vehicle BMW has offered in the US since the Z4M was the 1M, which in my opinion as well as many others came in well below expectations due to the non-M engine.

[paddy335]

Originally Posted by gaz26

You should get more sleep!

Here are a few really great niche BMW's.

M1
1M
E9 CSL
850CSi
M3 CSL
M3 GTS
M3 Sport EVO111
2002 Turbo
328
1600GT
Z8

Like I said, occasionals

[solstice]

As I mentioned in another thread with the introduction of the 135i, 335i and 550i there is now standard cars that fulfills what some say is the intention of M cars. Very fast cars on and off the track ( well, the 550 is not that good on the track but a 335i or 135i are plenty competent for the occassional track day ) that is also comfortable and practical daily drivers.

Where does this leave the M cars? Just poser value from the M badge and someone else's ring time? I hope not. IMO M cars has been more about driving excitement than ultimate performance and comfort. It's just lately with the SUVs and the F-series M5 and M6 that they have become uber luxury isolated rocket ships. Especially the M3 has been about driving excitement but the E39 and E60 M5s are pretty entertaining as well to say the least. I have hopes that the F8X will break the mold from the latest M cars and keep focus on being fun to drive not just post cracking lap times and be "refined". We'll see how this turns out but the little that has been said by the "ride alongs" has me concerned.

And for the "this bitching happens everytime a new car comes along", maybe it does but I've driven BMWs since the 1980s and this is the first time I don't much like anything in BMWs lineup. In the past I've liked pretty much everything since the 2002.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by solstice

As I mentioned in another thread with the introudction of the 135i, 335i and 550i there is now standard cars that fulfills what some say is the intention of M cars. Very fast cars on and off the track ( well, the 550 is not that good on the track but a 335i or 135i are plenty competent for the occassional track day ) that is also comfortable and practical daily drivers.

Where does this leave the M cars? Just poser value from the M badge and someone else's ring time? I hope not. IMO M cars has been more about driving excitement than ultimate performance and comfort. It's just lately with the SUVs and the F-series M5 and M6 that they have become uber luxury isolated rocket ships. Especially the M3 has been about driving excitement but the E39 and E60 M5s are pretty entertaining as well to say the least. I have hopes that the F8X will break the mold from the latest M cars and keep focus on being fun to drive not just post cracking lap times and be "refined". We'll see how this turns out but the little that has been said by the "ride alongs" has me concerned.

One factual issue for the F8x is that the cabin is very isolated/insulated from the engine bay. That's disappointing.

[YolkyPalky]

Originally Posted by solstice

IMO M cars has been more about driving excitement than ultimate performance and comfort. It's just lately with the SUVs and the F-series M5 and M6 that they have become uber luxury isolated rocket ships.

I've never thought of "M" cars as "uber luxury". In fact, I'd say the interior of M cars just barely makes the cut into luxury category (however it may be defined).

Secondly, regarding driving fun, the M cars are kick-ass responsive machines....once you get them into the power range of 3,000 RPM +.

However, they have always sucked in the low end in my opinion. I'm not trolling here, I've been an original owner of both a '02 E46 M3 and currently a '11 E90 M3. The low-end power/torque leaves a lot to be desired. I think the turbos in the new F80 make the entire RPM range kick ass!