[carve]

My wife and I are mid-30's now. Been married for 12 years. We're always doing so much...from traveling, to sports, to just enjoying our down-time, that we keep pushing off having kids.

I never really wanted kids, and she wanted kids later on. I've come around a bit where I'm not as opposed to the idea as before, and she is to the point where she appreciates the benefits of not having kids and isn't sure she wants them. She's a teacher and spends all-day, every day with kids. At our age we have to decide pretty soon.

I see mostly negatives though. About the biggest benefit I see is that I'm an actual responsible person who thinks this kind of stuff over. The kind of people who worry about whether to have kids, and the consequences they'll entail would probably make more responsible parents than the people who don't think this stuff out. So, we'd probably build a smart and productive member of society, and we'd also pass on our genes. My wife, being a teacher, would probably be a great parent. I'm not sure if I have the patience. Also, it's pretty egotistical to think there's something special about our genes to pass on. We both have addiction and auto-immune issues in our families.

I'm really not that close with my parents...see them once or twice a year...talk to them a couple of times per month. I suppose I turned out OK. My wife is closer with her family. Her parents are still married so she has a more positive view of family life than I. She sees and talks to them about 2x as often as I. Her brother wound up being a drug addict though. I feel awful for her parents, and couldn't imagine what that would be like if it happened to our kid.

Here are the Disadvantages I see
*My wife's auto-immune issues is sparked up by stress, and kids would create a LOT of stress. That plus the pregnancy might raise some serious health problems for her. I don't handle stress that well either. The sleepless nights and constant crying sound very unappealing, too.
*The kid becomes most important- not the spouse. Most failed marriages I know of failed AFTER kids. A failed marriage is a recipe for misery, both for you and the kids. Very high-risk. You can't make decisions based primarily on how they'll affect you- the kid is the #1 priority
*The mess. It sounds like a life of cleaning. I especially can't stand the idea of cleaning up sh!t and puke. I mean REALLY can't stand it- like that alone is almost enough for me to not want a kid. Babies just seem to stream disgusting liquids from every orifice.
*Tied down. Harder to travel, visit friends, spur-of-the-moment ski trips, etc. I wouldn't even be able to go for a mountain bike ride with my wife without making arrangements for a babysitter. I'm at the age where many of my friends have young children, and with very rare exceptions they seem to disappear after that happens. How isolating. Also, it makes it much more difficult to make risky business decisions. Reliable income is more important than doing something you like (and my job as a contractor is very unpredictable).
*EXPENSIVE. Big time. Health care....education (public schools are awful where I live)...clothes...toys...vacations...babysitters.. .cars...higher education. It cost about 1/4 million dollars to raise a child to age 17, and that doesn't include private school. I could retire quite a bit earlier if I invested it instead.
*Unpredictable result. What if the kid has serious birth defects? That would be the end of my world. I'd basically be saddled with all the negatives above, except worse, for the rest of my life. What if the kid becomes a loser, or a drug addict, and I wasted all of those resources? That'd be utter despair for me.

Here's what I see as the advantages
*Pass on your genes
*Pass on your memes (which my wife is already doing as a teacher)
*There's a time between ages, say, 7-12 and 25+ when you can go out and have fun with them, and they're up for it too, where it might be fun.
*Hopefully have a good relationship with them when I'm old, although I think old people really need to depend more on their friends and peers for social interaction.
*Hopefully raise a person who makes a positive contribution to society.

The disadvantages look a lot bigger than the advantages. Hell- I don't even get a new dog just so I'm not tied down and don't have to clean up after it, and I've liked my past dogs more than most people.

So, how do people weigh all of those considerations and still decide to have kids? I must be missing some of the advantages, no?

And don't say "someone to love you". Nobody is obligated to love you. Your kid is just more likely to assuming you do everything right.

[DOCTOR 3VIL]

Kiss your life goodbye if you ever have kids. They'll want and need your 100% attention, all the time!

[carve]

Yeah...so why do people want that?

I think a lot of them don't think it out, or are naive and think it'll be as much work as a puppy (and probably underestimate how much work a puppy is, too)

Do you have kids, Dr.?

[ZJP]

I completely agree with everything posted.

[Syndicategt]

I'm a DINK (Dual Income No Kids) - almost in the same situation as you and agree with everything. I love my dogs like kids.

[Simple5]

Amen to that bro. Im married and I don't want kids. My days of modding and buying nice crap for myself will be over.

[Sephiroth]

To some (most?) people there is no logic involved, its all emotion. If you want kids you want kids. You ever dream of having a son turning wrenches with you in the garage?

If you don't have that feeling then don't have them. It already sounds like you are heavily against the idea and looking for reassurance. There are lots of people without kids who've led happy lives well into retirement.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by carve

Yeah...so why do people want that?

I think a lot of them don't think it out, or are naive and think it'll be as much work as a puppy (and probably underestimate how much work a puppy is, too)

Do you have kids, Dr.?

I have many thoughts on the subject, but no time for my lenghty post at the moment, I'll be back....

[DOCTOR 3VIL]

Yes, twin girls.
Age 4 right now. Love them to death of course but when you get home from a hard days work there is no time to rest at all. They seem to have an unlimited source of energy. I wish they would give me some of that.
Sometimes I can't even talk in piece with my wife, because they are like "daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy, mommy, mommy, ............."
The only rest I get is after they go to sleep at night.

Let me put it this way: It's the best thing and the most difficult thing in your life!

[ideliver]

Once you have kids...you could never imagine a life without them...

Unconditional love

[number335]

One benefit I can think of (and this may be a cultural thing) is that when you get old, your kids will be there to take care of you.

Other than that, knowing how I was a kid, there is no benefit.

[carve]

Yeah- no denying that after I had little kids I'm pretty sure I'd love them. But, I loved my dog when he was around, and have still chosen not to get another.

You ever dream of having a son turning wrenches with you in the garage?

Nope. Forgive me...I have the logic and emotional range of a stereotypical German...but what's appealing there, other than passing on knowledge they might need later? That sounds like a really specific dream. What if you have a daughter...or the kid isn't interested in cars? My dad wanted me to go fishing with him and, after about age 4 I hated fishing and still do. Hours of standing in the rain holding a stick, and you get to kill and gut a wild animal. Not fun.

[carve]

Originally Posted by number335

One benefit I can think of (and this may be a cultural thing) is that when you get old, your kids will be there to take care of you.

Other than that, knowing how I was a kid, there is no benefit.

While I would appreciate that, I would not expect my child to be my caretaker. They're their own person- not a retirement plan. I wouldn't be so hot on the idea of my parents treating me like that, either (especially since they're divorced, so how could I take care of one and not the other)

[carve]

Originally Posted by ideliver

Once you have kids...you could never imagine a life without them...

Unconditional love

You don't know ANYBODY who doesn't like their parents or has disowned their children?

[Mr Tonka]

When i weigh it all out i come up with the same list you do. But when it came down to it we just looked at how we felt about it and what we felt we wanted. When trying to think about it from the heart, we just didn't feel drawn to having children.

And when we think about it from a pro and con perspective we come up with what you wrote. And we have a wonderful dog as well and if he were any more responsibility we'd kick him to the curb!

Probably like you most of your friends seem to want to drag you in to child bearing with them. The only reason i can think that they do that is because misery loves company.

Further more, most of our friends are so hung up on having kids they are willing to go through in vitro up to 3 times!! We actually stopped to think about our friends and their kids and realized that we know of more in vitro babies than natrual conception babies!

But to answer your question i think that most of the time it's just the next step for most. "That's what we're supposed to do." Get married, have kids.

[number335]

Originally Posted by carve

While I would appreciate that, I would not expect my child to be my caretaker. They're their own person- not a retirement plan. I wouldn't be so hot on the idea of my parents treating me like that, either (especially since they're divorced, so how could I take care of one and not the other)

I think it would be more towards you wanting to take care of your parents more than them expecting you to. If one of your parents fell ill, would you not want to take care of them? Or would you prefer to leave them in the care of strangers?

[carve]

"That's what we're supposed to do."

There's something to be said for that. We wouldn't last long if everyone thought like me. There's currently no shortage of humans though...I just wish more of them contributed to, rather than took from, society.

[grieverr]

Wow, OP....no kidding about your emotional range!

I couldn't agree more with ideliver. Once you have 'em, you cannot imagine life without them.

You cannot place logic on having kids. It's like a robot trying to compute love.

Couldn't you come up with a similar advantage/disadvantage list for having a spouse? Being tied down, having her cheat on you, expensive, maybe not approving of your friends. Yet, you sound like you're still very much in love. It would be something similar with kids.

What I'm saying is, you can't rationalize having children in a few bullet points. You either want a family or not. Your life will change, but the hope is that it changes for the better.

[Bimmer Nerd]

You should ask these guys

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609217

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by carve

Yeah- no denying that after I had little kids I'm pretty sure I'd love them. But, I loved my dog when he was around, and have still chosen not to get another.



Nope. Forgive me...I have the logic and emotional range of a stereotypical German...but what's appealing there, other than passing on knowledge they might need later? That sounds like a really specific dream. What if you have a daughter...or the kid isn't interested in cars? My dad wanted me to go fishing with him and, after about age 4 I hated fishing and still do. Hours of standing in the rain holding a stick, and you get to kill and gut a wild animal. Not fun.

Now that i'm older, as you pointed out 25+ i really enjoy spending time with my parents. Some times i wonder if i'll miss that when i'm their age since i won't have any kids of my own. But like you said, you can't build your kids from a catalog. You don't know what you're going to get.

Originally Posted by carve

While I would appreciate that, I would not expect my child to be my caretaker. They're their own person- not a retirement plan. I wouldn't be so hot on the idea of my parents treating me like that, either (especially since they're divorced, so how could I take care of one and not the other)

Full agreement here. If everyone expected that they would be responsible for their own 'end time' if you will this whole place would be so much better.

Originally Posted by carve

You don't know ANYBODY who doesn't like their parents or has disowned their children?

This is the one that gets me most. Like all kids love their parents. I know of several peers who have no relationship with their parents. Not a good reason in my book.

[just4kickz]

if you have a list of pro/con reasons for having kids... i think kids are not for you...

i'm probably very similar to you... i don't know if i want kids.

[Uber V8]

Originally Posted by grieverr

Wow, OP....no kidding about your emotional range!

I couldn't agree more with ideliver. Once you have 'em, you cannot imagine life without them.

You cannot place logic on having kids. It's like a robot trying to compute love.

Couldn't you come up with a similar advantage/disadvantage list for having a spouse? Being tied down, having her cheat on you, expensive, maybe not approving of your friends. Yet, you sound like you're still very much in love. It would be something similar with kids.

What I'm saying is, you can't rationalize having children in a few bullet points. You either want a family or not. Your life will change, but the hope is that it changes for the better.

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