[islandbimmer]

the new tesla S sedan is likley going to be my next car it looks as good as any Bimmer as fast and yes it seats seven. It is time to get off gas. BMW better wake up as full electrics with 300 mile range are going to be a force. We are paying $1.21 Liter here for premium $4 US a gallon and it is going to go higher.

[scollins]

Electric cars in their current state are just "pollution shifters" and don't really address the problem of energy. Where do you get the energy for your electric car? In the US, the majority of electricity is generated by fossil fueled plants. So what good does an EV in terms of reducing dependence on fossil fuels? Until the bulk of the electricity is derived from renewable, "clean" sources, EVs are just there to assuage guilt.

And that doesn't get into issue of batteries....

[Red Bread]

Funny, I saw a Mini-E yesterday. Now who makes that?

[03BeastCharmer]

Originally Posted by scollins

Electric cars in their current state are just "pollution shifters" and don't really address the problem of energy. Where do you get the energy for your electric car? In the US, the majority of electricity is generated by fossil fueled plants. So what good does an EV in terms of reducing dependence on fossil fuels? Until the bulk of the electricity is derived from renewable, "clean" sources, EVs are just there to assuage guilt.

And that doesn't get into issue of batteries....

And all of the magazines that test the current Tesla and try to push it have it over heat or run out of power in 15 mi. Current electric cars aren't all that good to drive (spirited) or good for the environment (yet).

[Rambler]

Originally Posted by scollins

Electric cars in their current state are just "pollution shifters" and don't really address the problem of energy. Where do you get the energy for your electric car? In the US, the majority of electricity is generated by fossil fueled plants. So what good does an EV in terms of reducing dependence on fossil fuels? Until the bulk of the electricity is derived from renewable, "clean" sources, EVs are just there to assuage guilt.

And that doesn't get into issue of batteries....

With solar panels installed, you could drive an electric car with little to no use of fossil fuels (other than that which is required to build and maintain the car).

I think this will be a viable option as the cost of residential solar keeps coming down (or as incentives increase).

[wellwell]

Originally Posted by scollins

Electric cars in their current state are just "pollution shifters" and don't really address the problem of energy. Where do you get the energy for your electric car? In the US, the majority of electricity is generated by fossil fueled plants. So what good does an EV in terms of reducing dependence on fossil fuels? Until the bulk of the electricity is derived from renewable, "clean" sources, EVs are just there to assuage guilt.

And that doesn't get into issue of batteries....

+1
plus all the environmental damage associated to manufacturing, supply chain, and disposal. as it stands right now its a novelty IMO.

[Bols]

/slap


/thread

[islandbimmer]

guys I live in BC use to live in Manitoba almost all our electricity up here is hydro 100% renewable. You seem to forget there are no oil changes no antifreeze and all the junk products on the market from octane boosters to injector cleaners you guys are wearing blinkers the environmental impact is huge. Yea I know they are testing the mini but the Tesla is a three and five series killer.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by scollins

Electric cars in their current state are just "pollution shifters" and don't really address the problem of energy. Where do you get the energy for your electric car? In the US, the majority of electricity is generated by fossil fueled plants. So what good does an EV in terms of reducing dependence on fossil fuels? Until the bulk of the electricity is derived from renewable, "clean" sources, EVs are just there to assuage guilt.

And that doesn't get into issue of batteries....

You realize that the current electrics FAR exceed gas powered vehicles when it comes to efficiency..right? Even when transmission and charging losses electrics are still nearly twice as efficient as fossile fueled powered vehicles with the same level of performance.

That gap widens drastically if you switch to local electricity production from PVs or wind. It's also much easier to islolate pollution from once central source than it is from millions of individual ICEs.

And lets go ahead and get into the batteries. They're nearly 100% recyclable, and the energy used in the manufacturing process is built into the cost. If they used huge amount of energy, they would cost drastically more.

The fact of the matter is that less the 15% of total energy a vehicle will use in its lifetime is in the manufacturing stage. Electric cars don't require significantly more resources to manufacture than normal gas powered vehicle.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Bols

/slap


/thread

Not hardly.

[Zephyr15]

Originally Posted by islandbimmer

the new tesla S sedan is likley going to be my next car it looks as good as any Bimmer as fast and yes it seats seven. It is time to get off gas. BMW better wake up as full electrics with 300 mile range are going to be a force. We are paying $1.21 Liter here for premium $4 US a gallon and it is going to go higher.

Seven Munchkins maybe.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Zephyr15

Seven Munchkins maybe.

It's supposed to seat 5 adults and two kids. We'll have to see how well that works out though. It's hard to imagine there being a lot of headroom in the back of that car.

Of course, if we're buying electric cars, I'll take this one please:

[carve]

It'll be pretty cool...but there are a lot of challenges that such a young company is going to have a hard time overcoming. The "prototype" you saw is more or less a Mercedes E-class chassis with a custom body and a glorified golf cart drivetrain...just enough juice to move around the parking lot under it's own power. The $50k version will have a very limited sized battery. Keep in mind this is ~2x the mass to move around as the roadster, and they want to do it at 1/2 the price- that's a factor of 4 cost efficiency increase for the battery. I wish the best for this car, and agree that electric is the way of the future for 90% of most people's driving, but I wouldn't hold my breath for this car. Make sure to keep that 335i well maintained. We WILL have something comparable to the Model S at a reasonable price eventually, but it may still be a while yet. Also, I think we may have to go to standardized swapable battery modules. There's a company working on this now...Better World or something.

All electric is the way to go rather than a design like the volt (for technical battery reasons I won't get into). However, I'd like to see an option where you can pull out a battery pack and swap in something like a flat-2 combustion engine with a CVT...maybe something like 40 hp. You'd put this in if you're planning a trip. Your electric system would still do the majority of your acceleration and hill climbing, but the engine would be able to maintain your speed over long distances. The volt runs it's battery dry first, and then has to get ALL of it's juice from the engine. Of course, it might make more economic sense just to rent a car if you want to do a road trip, so we probably won't see anything like that.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by carve

All electric is the way to go rather than a design like the volt (for technical battery reasons I won't get into). .

What technical reason would that be? The Volt isn't going to deep cycle its batteries one every trip, if that's what you're thinking. It will operate just like the current hybrids from GM and Toyota, where the ICE will kick in once a certain battery level has been reached, which should extend the life drastically. The big difference between the Volt and other hybrids is the size of the battery pack. A Prius won't go more than about half a mile at low speed on battery alone, whereas the Volt will be able to go about 40 miles.

[EmPower]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

You realize that the current electrics FAR exceed gas powered vehicles when it comes to efficiency..right? Even when transmission and charging losses electrics are still nearly twice as efficient as fossile fueled powered vehicles with the same level of performance.

That gap widens drastically if you switch to local electricity production from PVs or wind. It's also much easier to islolate pollution from once central source than it is from millions of individual ICEs.

And lets go ahead and get into the batteries. They're nearly 100% recyclable, and the energy used in the manufacturing process is built into the cost. If they used huge amount of energy, they would cost drastically more.

The fact of the matter is that less the 15% of total energy a vehicle will use in its lifetime is in the manufacturing stage. Electric cars don't require significantly more resources to manufacture than normal gas powered vehicle.

You want to stop pollution and global warming, shift your focus to airliners and ships.

[warmtoes]

Originally Posted by EmPower

You want to stop pollution and global warming, shift your focus to airliners and ships.

I think you would agree that individuals have a lot more control over what they drive than what type of plane or ship they take or have their goods transported on.

Going green is one step at a time.

[EmPower]

Originally Posted by warmtoes

I think you would agree that individuals have a lot more control over what they drive than what type of plane or ship they take or have their goods transported on.

Going green is one step at a time.

But at the same time, we are forgetting the big picture. Buying one (or 1000) hybrid(s), is not going to solve this problem when your freight-liner (shipping vessel) produces as much greenhouse gas to virtually kill the amazon rain forest. See macro, not micro.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by EmPower

But at the same time, we are forgetting the big picture. Buying one (or 1000) hybrid(s), is not going to solve this problem when your freight-liner (shipping vessel) produces as much greenhouse gas to virtually kill the amazon rain forest. See macro, not micro.

And the shipping industry is being delt with, as well as the automotive industry.

It's a little bit easier to run a car on electricity than to find an alternative means to power a ship you know. One step at a time. The notion that because automobiles aren't the absolute worst offenders that nothing should be done at all just doesn't make any sense.

Electric vehicles are a reasonable and viable solution for much of an individuals transportation needs.

[EmPower]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

And the shipping industry is being delt with, as well as the automotive industry.

It's a little bit easier to run a car on electricity than to find an alternative means to power a ship you know. One step at a time. The notion that because automobiles aren't the absolute worst offenders that nothing should be done at all just doesn't make any sense.

Electric vehicles are a reasonable and viable solution for much of an individuals transportation needs.

I never said that, but the gusto with which every govt. in the world is pursuing this is insane. Its like they want to get hold of the proverbial magic wand, wave it and make this mess go away.

A question for all those eco weenies out there. Did you know in 2007, the S class was voted the CLEANER car over the prius in the UK? Why? Because the germans use a LOT of recycled materials in their cars (that come from prior models). That in itself saves manufacturing costs and kills the earth slower.

A hybrid has batteries, that have Lithium. There are still no proper recycling/ disposal methods available for these once their life expectancy is over. Is that non polluting?

Any one wanting to go eco friendly should consider diesel power. It is the cheapest gas around, and gives between 25-40% more economy than a comparable gas engine, and add to that the incentives the govt offers, makes it a very viable option

[Vudoo4u2]

I'll make this really simple for the people out there hell bent on electric cars:

Youre right, they dont produce emissions themselves. But aside from the occasional dude who lives in a 100% hydropower area...and there arent many of us that do...

if you want to power the entire US fleet of vehicles with electricty, you would have to build and run 27 NEW nuclear power plants to take care of that kind of electric consumption.

Now dont get me wrong, if we can solve nuclear fusion in a stable contained environment, that wont be a problem...but for now? Electric cars are a pipedream if you think theyre going to replace everything with it. Youre nuts. Try taking a look at your power bill after you fill up that car of yours, and do yourself a favor, dont get caught somewhere in the middle of the road near corn fields with low "fuel"...might not be such a sweet trip.

someday...someday controlled nuclear fusion will solve our problems...for now...start loading up on turbos, because thats what every manufacturer is going to turn to to reach the emissions standards inpending in 2014. Cheap, and can improve mileage quickly. Electric cars arent legit yet...

[EmPower]

Originally Posted by Vudoo4u2

I'll make this really simple for the people out there hell bent on electric cars:

Youre right, they dont produce emissions themselves. But aside from the occasional dude who lives in a 100% hydropower area...and there arent many of us that do...

if you want to power the entire US fleet of vehicles with electricty, you would have to build and run 27 NEW nuclear power plants to take care of that kind of electric consumption.

Now dont get me wrong, if we can solve nuclear fusion in a stable contained environment, that wont be a problem...but for now? Electric cars are a pipedream if you think theyre going to replace everything with it. Youre nuts. Try taking a look at your power bill after you fill up that car of yours, and do yourself a favor, dont get caught somewhere in the middle of the road near corn fields with low "fuel"...might not be such a sweet trip.

someday...someday controlled nuclear fusion will solve our problems...for now...start loading up on turbos, because thats what every manufacturer is going to turn to to reach the emissions standards inpending in 2014. Cheap, and can improve mileage quickly. Electric cars arent legit yet...

Thank You!

[cougfan335]

Save the earth: cork a cows rear end on your way to work today! With solar and hydro-electric power these cars are going to be pretty great environmentally compared to gas burners. Even in coal powered America I would rather support some miners in Pennsylvania or West Virginia than a Saudi Sheik.