[c1pher]

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...n-test-review/

[Funf6cyl]

If you read the review, they flat out said the 911 was better. The C8 was sloppy compared to the 992 in handling, was slower in a straight, a lot slower on track and in the figure 8 and didn’t brake as well or do any of the fine precision stuff nearly as well (steering, mid corner adjustability). The vette simply won on price but not on anything related to being a better car and that is also why it s again the best driver’s car. As a 3 time 991 owner (991.1S and 991.2 S and also a 991.2T - still have the .1S and .2T) they simply make the most cohesive and well put together sports GT package in the world.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

If you read the review, they flat out said the 911 was better. The C8 was sloppy compared to the 992 in handling, was slower in a straight, a lot slower on track and in the figure 8 and didn’t brake as well or do any of the fine precision stuff nearly as well (steering, mid corner adjustability). The vette simply won on price but not on anything related to being a better car and that is also why it s again the best driver’s car. As a 3 time 991 owner (991.1S and 991.2 S and also a 991.2T - still have the .1S and .2T) they simply make the most cohesive and well put together sports GT package in the world.

I don't think the C8 won simply on price; it appears Motor Trend sees the C8 as a better overall value than the 911 considering the level of performance is virtually equal and some of the attributes are slightly less than the 911 (steering, brake pedal feel, and a mid-corner understeer). Maybe to some drivers, those attributes are marked in their minds as "just different". If a car comparison doesn't include price as a variable, then there really is no point in having a competition. Most every product is judged on price as one element of it's value.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I don't think the C8 won simply on price; it appears Motor Trend sees the C8 as a better overall value than the 911 considering the level of performance is virtually equal and some of the attributes are slightly less than the 911 (steering, brake pedal feel, and a mid-corner understeer). Maybe to some drivers, those attributes are marked in their minds as "just different". If a car comparison doesn't include price as a variable, then there really is no point in having a competition. Most every product is judged on price as one element of it's value.

What I can glean from the article is that they basically picked the c8 bc it’s cheaper. Everything they wrote, and numbers tell you the 911 was the superior car by some margin despite being down nearly 60 hp and a good bit of torque too.
I don’t think I specially answered anything in my first post but here is why I think it doesn’t work that was. BDC is price agnostic, and simply picks the best car for road and track and there I don’t think the C8 would have stood a chance since it’s not as good of a track car as the 911 based on what was written and by the numbers not so I think it is quite as good of a GT car as the 911 but think it shows better on street than it does the track.

[swanson]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

What I can glean from the article is that they basically picked the c8 bc it’s cheaper. Everything they wrote, and numbers tell you the 911 was the superior car by some margin despite being down nearly 60 hp and a good bit of torque too.
I don’t think I specially answered anything in my first post but here is why I think it doesn’t work that was. BDC is price agnostic, and simply picks the best car for road and track and there I don’t think the C8 would have stood a chance since it’s not as good of a track car as the 911 based on what was written and by the numbers not so I think it is quite as good of a GT car as the 911 but think it shows better on street than it does the track.

[m630]

As you rightly point out, the infamous “value” argument that clearly drove their decision. That is a bs element, as its completely subjective, and they are completely wrong in any case.

To me value is 50+ years of investment and tuning that has allowed Porsche to offer the 992 that won the competition, what price do you put on that? Chevy is starting at the beginning of their investment cycle and have a long way to go.

This is no dis to the vette, though im not a vette fan in any way, shape, or form that I clearly will admit, and the new offering is interesting, BUT, this is their first foray into this new world and they will need time to enhance the new chassis.

The 992 is the pinnacle of a long heritage and it is the clear leader.

And lets consider value in one final way, depreciation. Do you think, by %, that the vette will retain its perceived value better than the 992 in say 5 years? Never.
In summary, no comparison, 992 all the way

[N54Yankee]

The 911 v C8 story is a bit odd. They say that the GM guys were there hindering what can or can’t be done. They didn’t specify details as to what the hell that means. They also say that the 911 was faster down the straights by 8mph( a huge difference on a track) and also got through the corners quicker also yet they had the Corvette only a second behind. That doesn’t make sense at all.
At triple digits they proclaim the C8 was solid and planted but the 911 was nervous. They tested the heaviest C8(3LT) against a lightweight version Porsche which didn’t even have power seats.

Biggest thing for me is the C8 is a totally new engineered Corvette from its previous generations and the car tested is a very early test mule if you will and fine tuning will be done to the car till the day the full production cars roll of the line and headed to dealers. It will be better then this test car was at the time they tested it. When it’s all said and done I’m betting the C8 will be faster on tracks then this comparable 911, eliminating reviewers subjective feelings of course.

[FuriouslyFast]

Originally Posted by m630

As you rightly point out, the infamous “value” argument that clearly drove their decision. That is a bs element, as its completely subjective, and they are completely wrong in any case.

To me value is 50+ years of investment and tuning that has allowed Porsche to offer the 992 that won the competition, what price do you put on that? Chevy is starting at the beginning of their investment cycle and have a long way to go.

This is no dis to the vette, though im not a vette fan in any way, shape, or form that I clearly will admit, and the new offering is interesting, BUT, this is their first foray into this new world and they will need time to enhance the new chassis.

The 992 is the pinnacle of a long heritage and it is the clear leader.

And lets consider value in one final way, depreciation. Do you think, by %, that the vette will retain its perceived value better than the 992 in say 5 years? Never.
In summary, no comparison, 992 all the way

GM cars rarely hold value so that makes the C8 an even better value then b/c it will be even better value used vs the Porsche

[m630]

How so when Pcars often retain or even increase in value????

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

The 911 v C8 story is a bit odd. They say that the GM guys were there hindering what can or can’t be done. They didn’t specify details as to what the hell that means. They also say that the 911 was faster down the straights by 8mph( a huge difference on a track) and also got through the corners quicker also yet they had the Corvette only a second behind. That doesn’t make sense at all.
At triple digits they proclaim the C8 was solid and planted but the 911 was nervous. They tested the heaviest C8(3LT) against a lightweight version Porsche which didn’t even have power seats.

Biggest thing for me is the C8 is a totally new engineered Corvette from its previous generations and the car tested is a very early test mule if you will and fine tuning will be done to the car till the day the full production cars roll of the line and headed to dealers. It will be better then this test car was at the time they tested it. When it’s all said and done I’m betting the C8 will be faster on tracks then this comparable 911, eliminating reviewers subjective feelings of course.

I’ll make you a friendly wager on the upcoming tests. No way the vette is beating the S or 4S despite a better power to weight ratio. I doubt any tweaks they make are going to be material to its performance. The car is 99% done and I doubt if this was built on the production line you can hardly call it a mule. It’s the same car they used for R&T and Farrah said it’s a true prod car.
Did you know the C8 was wearing a stickier tire than the 911? Yet it had less lateral grip, and 1.1 second slower per lap a is A LOT of time. The delta in figure 8 time (911 faster by a whopping .6 seconds) was embarrassing for the C8 too. The 911 was much easier to adjust, more predictable, full of feel, better at the limit and easier to push to the limits across all aspects. Odd about the nervous feeling, but sometimes people dont like live/full of feel steering. My 911s have never felt anything but planted as can be above 100. The C8 was a bit sloppy on the limit by comparison. They also definitely didn’t test the lightest 911 going by the fact that it weighed 3369 lbs. The Corvette is a pretty heavy car no matter which way you slice it and for it to have 60 more hp, and 80 torque more it certainly doesnt show it. It’s Dct is also 3rd rate compared to PDK. Ultimately, chevy has a long way to go...and my guess is, the 718 GT4 will be a lot better of a drivers car than the C8 too.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by m630

As you rightly point out, the infamous “value” argument that clearly drove their decision. That is a bs element, as its completely subjective, and they are completely wrong in any case.

To me value is 50+ years of investment and tuning that has allowed Porsche to offer the 992 that won the competition, what price do you put on that? Chevy is starting at the beginning of their investment cycle and have a long way to go.

This is no dis to the vette, though im not a vette fan in any way, shape, or form that I clearly will admit, and the new offering is interesting, BUT, this is their first foray into this new world and they will need time to enhance the new chassis.

The 992 is the pinnacle of a long heritage and it is the clear leader.

And lets consider value in one final way, depreciation. Do you think, by %, that the vette will retain its perceived value better than the 992 in say 5 years? Never.
In summary, no comparison, 992 all the way

It took Porsche 35+ years or so to keep the 911 from easily swapping ends, which is a compromise of a rear engine architecture; and I'd bet that is accomplished now mostly by software. Just because the C8 is a departure from the previous front-engine layout, it's not like GM has no experience in building great handling cars and they are not starting from scratch. And even if so, they caught up damned quick against the pinnacle of GT sports cars (written with a smirk). The performance numbers are not that far off (technically speaking... a gnat's ass different); and the subjective feel of steering and brakes is just that, subjective. I get it, your a Porsche 911 guy, but consider the next best car on MT's list was the Shelby GT 350, a Mustang.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

I’ll make you a friendly wager on the upcoming tests. No way the vette is beating the S or 4S despite a better power to weight ratio. I doubt any tweaks they make are going to be material to its performance. The car is 99% done and I doubt if this was built on the production line you can hardly call it a mule. It’s the same car they used for R&T and Farrah said it’s a true prod car.
Did you know the C8 was wearing a stickier tire than the 911? Yet it had less lateral grip, and 1.1 second slower per lap a is A LOT of time. The delta in figure 8 time (911 faster by a whopping .6 seconds) was embarrassing for the C8 too. The 911 was much easier to adjust, more predictable, full of feel, better at the limit and easier to push to the limits across all aspects. Odd about the nervous feeling, but sometimes people dont like live/full of feel steering. My 911s have never felt anything but planted as can be above 100. The C8 was a bit sloppy on the limit by comparison. They also definitely didn’t test the lightest 911 going by the fact that it weighed 3369 lbs. The Corvette is a pretty heavy car no matter which way you slice it and for it to have 60 more hp, and 80 torque more it certainly doesnt show it. It’s Dct is also 3rd rate compared to PDK. Ultimately, chevy has a long way to go...and my guess is, the 718 GT4 will be a lot better of a drivers car than the C8 too.

Alignment settings do wonders for tuning chassis behavior.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by m630

How so when Pcars often retain or even increase in value????

Well, not the flat-side 911...

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Alignment settings do wonders for tuning chassis behavior.

Certainly do, however, the same could be said of most cars. The 911s aren’t that aggressively set up from the factory and are EVEN sharper when adjusting.
Porsche also moved the engine up again in the 992 and it’s even more mid engined. Notice how they have nearly the same weight distribution?
Either way, the 992 is still the top dog and to think the additional cars only get exponentially better.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

Certainly do, however, the same could be said of most cars. The 911s aren’t that aggressively set up from the factory and are EVEN sharper when adjusting.
Porsche also moved the engine up again in the 992 and it’s even more mid engined. Notice how they have nearly the same weight distribution?
Either way, the 992 is still the top dog and to think the additional cars only get exponentially better.

That I do have a beef with the C8, it seems a little rear-weight biased for a mid-engine design, but from what I've read, not far off from other mid-engine designs. A quick search shows the Cayman is 45/55. (same 2006 article says the 911 was 38/62...). But at track speeds, areo add ons affect weight bias...

Hopefully GM can tune the brake feel. Other GM cars I've driven have great pedal feel. My point of the discussion is, if the Shelby came close to the 911 as runner up, why is it not possible the C8 is on the other side of the 911 and would have come in first.

[m630]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It took Porsche 35+ years or so to keep the 911 from easily swapping ends, which is a compromise of a rear engine architecture; and I'd bet that is accomplished now mostly by software. Just because the C8 is a departure from the previous front-engine layout, it's not like GM has no experience in building great handling cars and they are not starting from scratch. And even if so, they caught up damned quick against the pinnacle of GT sports cars (written with a smirk). The performance numbers are not that far off (technically speaking... a gnat's ass different); and the subjective feel of steering and brakes is just that, subjective. I get it, your a Porsche 911 guy, but consider the next best car on MT's list was the Shelby GT 350, a Mustang.

Nope, nope, nope. And some of the details in the article dont add up either. This 992 was underpowered and still beat it in every measurable way.

A vette will never be the better drivers car. Period.

[N54Yankee]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

I’ll make you a friendly wager on the upcoming tests. No way the vette is beating the S or 4S despite a better power to weight ratio. I doubt any tweaks they make are going to be material to its performance. The car is 99% done and I doubt if this was built on the production line you can hardly call it a mule. It’s the same car they used for R&T and Farrah said it’s a true prod car.
Did you know the C8 was wearing a stickier tire than the 911? Yet it had less lateral grip, and 1.1 second slower per lap a is A LOT of time. The delta in figure 8 time (911 faster by a whopping .6 seconds) was embarrassing for the C8 too. The 911 was much easier to adjust, more predictable, full of feel, better at the limit and easier to push to the limits across all aspects. Odd about the nervous feeling, but sometimes people dont like live/full of feel steering. My 911s have never felt anything but planted as can be above 100. The C8 was a bit sloppy on the limit by comparison. They also definitely didn’t test the lightest 911 going by the fact that it weighed 3369 lbs. The Corvette is a pretty heavy car no matter which way you slice it and for it to have 60 more hp, and 80 torque more it certainly doesnt show it. It’s Dct is also 3rd rate compared to PDK. Ultimately, chevy has a long way to go...and my guess is, the 718 GT4 will be a lot better of a drivers car than the C8 too.

Friendly bet it is. Ground rules first, no 4s let’s compare similar cars and AWD shouldn’t apply. The two models in this article, the S vs the Z51. Future variants of both cars like the GS, Z06, ZR1 and the Porsche versions don’t apply to this discussion.
Track times only because magazine writers opinions shouldn’t matter as far as performance goes. Some adjectives thrown about are often rooted in biases. You might drive my Corvette and have things negative to say about it and me the same behind the wheel of your 911. Let’s remove bias and let the numbers do the talking. I’m confident that when track numbers come in from the usual suspects Laguna, VIR, Nurburgring.... the C8 will top the 2020 911s at at least half the tracks.
Your last sentence says the GT4 will be a lot better “drivers car” is pure conjecture opinion and unquantifiable. We would need to remove opinion and keep this scientific based solely on track numbers. Fair?

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

Friendly bet it is. Ground rules first, no 4s let’s compare similar cars and AWD shouldn’t apply. The two models in this article, the S vs the Z51. Future variants of both cars like the GS, Z06, ZR1 and the Porsche versions don’t apply to this discussion.
Track times only because magazine writers opinions shouldn’t matter as far as performance goes. Some adjectives thrown about are often rooted in biases. You might drive my Corvette and have things negative to say about it and me the same behind the wheel of your 911. Let’s remove bias and let the numbers do the talking. I’m confident that when track numbers come in from the usual suspects Laguna, VIR, Nurburgring.... the C8 will top the 2020 911s at at least half the tracks.
Your last sentence says the GT4 will be a lot better “drivers car” is pure conjecture opinion and unquantifiable. We would need to remove opinion and keep this scientific based solely on track numbers. Fair?

Sure. Sounds fair. It’s all in good fun.

Only thing though, this MT comparison counts and so does the R&T PCOTY where the 992 is going against the C8.

So right now 992: 1, C8: 0

[N54Yankee]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

Sure. Sounds fair. It’s all in good fun.

Only thing though, this MT comparison counts and so does the R&T PCOTY where the 992 is going against the C8.

So right now 992: 1, C8: 0

C8 is not production car yet, the timed track section was done by a motortrend writer not an actual race driver, the C8 was held back by the GM nanny’s in attendance as said in the story not quite a legitimate test by any means. it was a make shift track and I stated it should be done on actual tracks like Laguna, VIR, Ring not a hastily concocted piece of road. I’m talking about professional tracks with professional timing, not some writers with a stopwatch. The go to place for real world head to head cars, Fastest laps website for stock production cars, real times on real tracks.
R&T PCOTY doesn’t even put the cars on a race track, just your basic performance numbers and more feelings what some guys think. One is quicker to 60 but the other is quicker to 100, one has a higher trap yet the other has a lower ET.......How can we quantify that? We can’t. Real race track lap times only.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

C8 is not production car yet, the timed track section was done by a motortrend writer not an actual race driver, the C8 was held back by the GM nanny’s in attendance as said in the story not quite a legitimate test by any means. it was a make shift track and I stated it should be done on actual tracks like Laguna, VIR, Ring not a hastily concocted piece of road. I’m talking about professional tracks with professional timing, not some writers with a stopwatch. The go to place for real world head to head cars, Fastest laps website for stock production cars, real times on real tracks.
R&T PCOTY doesn’t even put the cars on a race track, just your basic performance numbers and more feelings what some guys think. One is quicker to 60 but the other is quicker to 100, one has a higher trap yet the other has a lower ET.......How can we quantify that? We can’t. Real race track lap times only.

Chris Walton drove both and is more than a capable driver.

I don’t think Fastest Laps is definitive. What is definitive is same day, same driver. Or at least same driver and procedures, like Sport Auto.

Again, I don’t see anything major changing the performance outcome for the Vette.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

Chris Walton drove both and is more than a capable driver.

I don’t think Fastest Laps is definitive. What is definitive is same day, same driver. Or at least same driver and procedures, like Sport Auto.

Again, I don’t see anything major changing the performance outcome for the Vette.

Just love internet magazine racing threads

[N54Yankee]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

Chris Walton drove both and is more than a capable driver.

I don’t think Fastest Laps is definitive. What is definitive is same day, same driver. Or at least same driver and procedures, like Sport Auto.

Again, I don’t see anything major changing the performance outcome for the Vette.

This is what mr Walton does, he’s not a pro racer. Cars like these need pros to get the most out of them. He can’t even quickly figure out how to get a good launch. He’s a novice car lover who writes opinions in a magazine. When it comes down to it he hands the keys to a pro to set times then writes them down. Same day same driver doesn’t mean much if the wheel guy can’t get the most from a high performance car. Chris can’t, nor is it an actual production car yet. We’ll see when the real rubber hits the track with real drivers at the helm. May be best car win, but we all win because these are great times for car folk.
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