[Simmadown115]

I am just wondering if BMW intentionally negotiated the B58C for the new MKV Supra so that the F8x M3/M4 and F87 M2C would reign as the RWD tuner choice of this generation. To kill it even more, the Supra is also only offered with an automatic transmission (which we all know is torque limited).

[NickyC]

If they did, they knew what they were doing. If the Supra came with the S55 and 6MT, I'd certainly look into it.

As it sits now however, NO WAY.

[mkoesel]

The Supra doesn't have an S55 (nor MT) because the Z4 doesn't. The reasons for that are that the S55 will be discontinued in 2021, and that BMW has not been able to create a business case for a Z4 M.

A future S58-based Z4 M and Supra are still possible, but not necessarily likely.

[ntg44]

Just read the Supra article and looked at photos on Car and Driver.

I don't care that the new Supra is automatic only (for the moment).
I don't care that the new Supra has Z4 bones.
I don't care that the new Supra has the B58 instead of the S55.
I don't care that the new Supra isn't the giant killer it was 20 years ago.

But I do care how terrible it looks. Aside from the seats, general interior (minus that hideous steering wheel), rear end, and having an amazing sounding inline 6 turbo, I can't stand looking at it. So much nostalgia was riding on this car for me. All Toyota needed was an evolution of the MkIV styling on the front end, and I would have forgiven all else and been lined up to order one today. Instead, yet again I need to look outside of Japan to find a sporty car that appeals to me.

Nissan - the Z is essentially dead, and the GT-R just keeps getting uglier.
Mitsubishi - Evo is dead.
Subaru - STI has taken far too long to update its engine, and at this rate I'm not sure it'll ever be competitive again.
Acura - NSX was a fail.
Honda - Type-R is good, but certainly not worth trading in my M3 for.
Lexus - RC-F is typical half-baked non-competitive Toyota at its finest.

The Supra was my last hope that I would get back into the Japanese car scene. But I see that while they were happy to let BMW take care of the powertrain and chassis, they couldn't even bother to get the design right.

Well Japan, it looks like you don't want my money anymore. The days of great value, giant killers are over, and I suppose moving on is the best solution for me at this point. If I sound sentimental or dramatic, it's because I am. So much of the reason I am a car enthusiast today was started from the Japanese car scene, and even as I moved up to more upscale cars and brands, I never forgot my roots. But it seems at this point I may as well start. If a MkIV Supra can reach over $100,000 dollars at auction, and Toyota can't even see why, then there's really no point in sticking around to wait for them.

At least I'll be able to enjoy my M3 for another full generation. May be one of the greatest cars I've ever owned, and more of a Supra than the Supra at this point.

[minn19]

I don't get it, why not just get a Z4? It is way more of a BMW than it is a Toyota. Agree with other posters that isn't great looking inside or out IMO.

[nicknaz]

I'm holding judgement until we learn if you can put on r tires and better brake pads and hammer it at a DE with no other changes, like an F80

or it has a lot of camber adjustability or can fit 275+ width sq setup tires or any other or the things that make a good trackable stock sports car

[Iceman1183]

Originally Posted by ntgarage44

Acura - NSX was a fail.

Can you elaborate please?

[F80Moe]

Cost saving maybe?

S55 would have made more logical sense.

A 20 year comeback with 15 more hp is a fail in today's standards..

Also no manual.. Very sad

[Seniorleb]

I was a great fan of the Supra Since my childhood but God the new one is ugly, I think Toyota should have done this car alone. The Z4 looks better, feels better and will sell better! period

[Arcades]

I don't believe BMW would give away M specific S-type engines to cars that isn't BMW M's by design.

Unless they are going to go down AMG's route and design another engine specially for another car, I don't see a Supra to ever have a S engine inside. Aside from that, how many comments and whining have you been seeing on the M2 forum side with the M2 N55 vs the M2C S55? Some just don't like the S55 due to the sound (it's weakest point) and it is also heavier. If the Supra was designed with the B58 in mind, shoving in the S55 might mess up the chassis balance.

[domino_z]

cost

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Arcades

I don't believe BMW would give away M specific S-type engines to cars that isn't BMW M's by design.

Check out the Wiesmann MF4 S (note the "S" - it is important) and MF5. They are (well, were) some fantastic retro roadsters (and coupes) that were never sold in the US. On a side note, the company fizzled out a few years ago, though I believe the owners are trying to bring it back to life.

Anyway, sure, those are exotic vehicles with very high price tags, but that simply shows that M is willing to part with their secret sauce for the right buyer. And there's no doubt a big share of Wiesmann's costs lie in the powertrain department.

If there were an S55 or S58 slated for the Z4, then the cost for Toyota to buy in might very well be reasonable enough to make the business case. Like I said above, it's still technically possible (for the S58 - the S55 is a dead man walking at this point). And the 6MT could even come along for the ride since M Division has strongly hinted (came just short of confirming it outright) that it will stick around in the G82 M4.

I honestly hope this all plays out because the Supra is a great effort in search of proper appeal. Let's be honest - if this car had come out of the gate with a 450hp engine and 6MT, the press and the enthusiast community would universally be going gaga for it right now, and the industry as a whole would be be put on notice.

[FC4]

The only reason this car has disappointed enthusiasts is because of unrealistic expectations.

[ntg44]

Originally Posted by FC4

The only reason this car has disappointed enthusiasts is because of unrealistic expectations.

If that's the case, then Toyota sure had plenty of time to disappoint. I was more excited for the BRZ/FRS after its reveal than this.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by FC4

The only reason this car has disappointed enthusiasts is because of unrealistic expectations.

Unrealistic? 35HP down from from a regular M2 (50ish down from the Z4 same engine), similar weight as a M2 with no back seats at all plus no MT and questionable looks inside and out? I think there are reasons to be dissapointed.

[ntg44]

Originally Posted by minn19

Unrealistic? 35HP down from from a regular M2 (50ish down from the Z4 same engine), similar weight as a M2 with no back seats at all plus no MT and questionable looks inside and out? I think there are reasons to be dissapointed.

You know I never thought about it, but you have a point. May as well get a M240i with a manual or M2 Comp if you want more. Just seemed to me like it was way more likely for Toyota to not screw up given everything BMW was doing for them, but they couldn't even bother to get the design right. They had the perfect inspiration sitting in their own lineup 20 years ago.

At least the 2 series looks good.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ntgarage44

You know I never thought about it, but you have a point. May as well get a M240i with a manual or M2 Comp if you want more. Just seemed to me like it was way more likely for Toyota to not screw up given everything BMW was doing for them, but they couldn't even bother to get the design right. They had the perfect inspiration sitting in their own lineup 20 years ago.

At least the 2 series looks good.

An M2 Comp is obviously going to cost more, but people may be willing to do it because you get a lot more IMO. Manual/back seats if you want them not to mention a lot more power over the new Supra.

At least the kept it RWD and I'll wait to see what more of the drivers reviews say. It looks pretty positive from the early ones. And I'll give them credit at least 0-60 in 4.1 is promising with the power it has.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by Iceman1183

Can you elaborate please?

If you go off of sales numbers, it is a failure.

I think it is a great car, but I sat inside one and the interior is really cheap unfortunately- the overall package was great but a lot of major points were not- heavy hybrid powertrain, cheap materials, over done styling, same price as 911 gt3 etc. That's not to say that the car won't be worth more in the future- I think it is revolutionary and sold in such small numbers, it makes sense to buy one and hold, if you're into that kind of thing. I want to buy cars to drive, so no thanks.

Nov 2018 sales

[ra2289]

Originally Posted by FC4

The only reason this car has disappointed enthusiasts is because of unrealistic expectations.

I don't completely disagree that some enthusiasts may have had unrealistic expectations since they would be judging the old Supra from its massive aftermarket tune-ability then comparing that to this new one.

However, I would put a fair bit of blame on Toyota for resurrecting the Supra name for this particular vehicle given where it stood back then vs where they positioned this new one now.

[elinstylez]

https://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/gr-supra/

335hp/365tq @ 3397lbs achieving 0-60 in 4.1 sec is impressive. Close to m3/4 numbers. Still wouldn't buy one though.

[NCThreePedals]

I thought about getting the new Supra and my wife said there's no point because it's not an upgrade. I mean she's not wrong lol

[shu5892001]

Originally Posted by ntgarage44

Just read the Supra article and looked at photos on Car and Driver.

I don't care that the new Supra is automatic only (for the moment).
I don't care that the new Supra has Z4 bones.
I don't care that the new Supra has the B58 instead of the S55.
I don't care that the new Supra isn't the giant killer it was 20 years ago.

But I do care how terrible it looks. Aside from the seats, general interior (minus that hideous steering wheel), rear end, and having an amazing sounding inline 6 turbo, I can't stand looking at it. So much nostalgia was riding on this car for me. All Toyota needed was an evolution of the MkIV styling on the front end, and I would have forgiven all else and been lined up to order one today. Instead, yet again I need to look outside of Japan to find a sporty car that appeals to me.

Nissan - the Z is essentially dead, and the GT-R just keeps getting uglier.
Mitsubishi - Evo is dead.
Subaru - STI has taken far too long to update its engine, and at this rate I'm not sure it'll ever be competitive again.
Acura - NSX was a fail.
Honda - Type-R is good, but certainly not worth trading in my M3 for.
Lexus - RC-F is typical half-baked non-competitive Toyota at its finest.

The Supra was my last hope that I would get back into the Japanese car scene. But I see that while they were happy to let BMW take care of the powertrain and chassis, they couldn't even bother to get the design right.

Well Japan, it looks like you don't want my money anymore. The days of great value, giant killers are over, and I suppose moving on is the best solution for me at this point. If I sound sentimental or dramatic, it's because I am. So much of the reason I am a car enthusiast today was started from the Japanese car scene, and even as I moved up to more upscale cars and brands, I never forgot my roots. But it seems at this point I may as well start. If a MkIV Supra can reach over $100,000 dollars at auction, and Toyota can't even see why, then there's really no point in sticking around to wait for them.

At least I'll be able to enjoy my M3 for another full generation. May be one of the greatest cars I've ever owned, and more of a Supra than the Supra at this point.

The 2020 Lexus RC-F and RC-F track is decent. Same high revving V8 motor but lost a lot of weight, 0-60 in 3.9s compare to 4.3s, which is pretty much all from losing weight since motor is the same.