[Roundown]

Originally Posted by eMvy

What exactly are you happy about?

What's so bad about it?

If it makes money, keeps BMW independent and *keeps ///M well funded* then I'm happy for SCOTT26

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by positiveions

Maybe BMW should look at the thread that I made last year. Up to 89% of bimmerpost.com population would buy an M3 touring. Pitty that some companies are turning deaf ears to consumers.

You believe that stat?

[Ashley Schaeffer BMW]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Well if an M3 is as close to performance you can have, your welcome to it.

Yes it's a great saloon car, however at the end of the days, it's a fast 3 series nothing special tbh.

As mentioned, most people are happy with C63 or E63 AMG Estates, or the likes of RS4 / RS6 Avants.

Those cars are great for people that actually have a life and that thing called hobbies..

Also, you don't need /// in front of the letter, just an M will give most people the idea.

Are you by chance a ... Manual driver as well?

My point


Your head


Oh and the M3 is a special car and it's iconic and a benchmark. Keep telling yourself the opposite though if it makes you feel better about your "M sport".

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by cSurf

Nah- lots of people over here want command driving positions. It's just a thing. My wife would never drive a wagon for that reason... She'd drive an X3M in a heartbeat.

QFT

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by positiveions

Maybe BMW should look at the thread that I made last year. Up to 89% of bimmerpost.com population would buy an M3 touring. Pitty that some companies are turning deaf ears to consumers.

Yes, so literally...hundreds of people.

Yeah they're missing out. It might sell in Europe in decent numbers but it'd never sell in the states. People may drool over a wagon since that's the "cool" car to like, but try asking someone to pony up $85k for one.

[MightyMouseTech]

If they had sold the M135 wagon/hb here that they sold in EU, I would have bought that instead of my 135. Guess they did not lose a sale though.

Be able to haul everything life brings, including ass.

Fuck I wanted this car:

[positiveions]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Yes, so literally...hundreds of people.

Yeah they're missing out. It might sell in Europe in decent numbers but it'd never sell in the states. People may drool over a wagon since that's the "cool" car to like, but try asking someone to pony up $85k for one.

If people are paying 5k extra for special paint, they will pay extra for wagons. It's the principal of supply and demand.

[positiveions]

Originally Posted by cSurf

You believe that stat?

If I don't believe in it, I wouldn't have create it.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by positiveions

If people are paying 5k extra for special paint, they will pay extra for wagons. It's the principal of supply and demand.

The amount of coherent sense the above post makes: none.

Some people are willing to pay for marble counter-tops in their homes, so per your "logic", it must mean there's a demand for bright pink station wagons.

Nice try at grasping economics 101 though. Not that I'm surprised, you actually thought some unscientific and, in no way randomized survey validates the belief that there's actually a demand for a wagon in the US, so it's not unexpected you'd draw the conclusion above which makes absolutely no sense.

You keep telling yourself that wagons would sell in high numbers here. You must know something that Audi, Mercedes, and BMW don't know with their staff of individuals who actually understand how to perform an actual scientific and randomly distributed survey.

Your "survey" targeted to car enthusiasts (otherwise they wouldn't be members of a car forum) would be akin to me surveying residents of Miami and concluding from the results of that survey that there's no demand for AWD cars in the entire United States.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Just for info from a head to head review of Mercedes v Audi 'wagons'.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mercede...audi-rs4-avant

Shame they did not throw the Alpina B3 in to the mix as well.

[IEDEI]

I would like a 2nd 'family car' to haul people and stuff in---bring the M135i 5-door hatch to the US market. I can suffer through the gutless electric steering as a sacrifice for practicality.....otherwise there is nothing BMW makes that even remotely interests me....

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by positiveions

If I don't believe in it, I wouldn't have create it.

Sorry, that stat is silly upfront to reality.

BMW has BTDT with wagon sale attempts in the US in the past. They never broke even.

I remember an argument on this very same subject with BMW NA market exec a few years ago, and his point was unassailable: the market of 3-series sized premium wagons in the US is ~8K units/year. We need to sell half that many just to brake even. With Audi, Volvo, and Merc crowding the market, that's just unlikely to happen.

Case closed.
Cue in the violins ...

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Sorry, that stat is silly upfront to reality.

BMW has BTDT with wagon sale attempts in the US in the past. They never broke even.

I remember an argument on this very same subject with BMW NA market exec a few years ago, and his point was unassailable: the market of 3-series sized premium wagons in the US is ~8K units/year. We need to sell half that many just to brake even. With Audi, Volvo, and Merc crowding the market, that's just unlikely to happen.

Case closed.
Cue in the violins ...

Those same marketing stats, numbers sold per type, is also killing the manual car for you as well.

This side of the Pond, something like 85% cars sold are manual, over there it's around 14% cars sold are manual.

Surveys of car hire companies in 2014 showed something like 98% of customers drove automatics.

So the future over there is saloon shaped with an auto box.


It will definitely restrict model availability over there across all manufacturers.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Those same marketing stats, numbers sold per type, is also killing the manual car for you as well.

These are not "some marketing stats".
This is the reality of US sales.

No matter what people say in surveys and pontificate online, BS stops at the checkout counter. Money talks.
If people are not buying wagons in sufficient numbers to justify producing them, we don't get the wagons.

Originally Posted by Brigand

This side of the Pond, something like 85% cars sold are manual, over there it's around 14% cars sold are manual.

Please cite all sources for your #s, as they appear to be at best unsubstantiated.

Overall European automatic tranny take rate was 20% in 2012, and growing (figure 4-11, page 52):
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default...tbook_2014.pdf

Automatic transmission is an expensive option, the one that fewer European can afford (vs. Americans).
Observe automatic transmission take rate per vehicle segment (p. 52 again) with 80+% take rate in upper-medium and luxury segments vs. sub-10% in 'small' cars.

US manual tranny sales have bottomed out at low single % digits, and rebounded to 6.5% in 2012 (last year for which I could dig up data):
http://business.time.com/2012/08/02/...e-stick-shift/

The manual take rate on performance cars is higher (helps that manual is even an option), higher yet for BMWs, and highest still on ///M cars (upto 45% with E90 M3's).

Originally Posted by Brigand

So the future over there is saloon shaped with an auto box.

Not really.
The future includes coupes, sedans, convertibles, crossovers, SUVs, and more and more electric cars with single speed transmissions.

Just not wagons. Which were a weird combo for the days when a family could afford only one car. Once you have the budget and garage big enough for 2+ cars, wagons go extinct.

The future is the same on both sides of the pond, it's only a question of which countries can afford to buy it first.

a

[Andrew115]

Originally Posted by positiveions

Maybe BMW should look at the thread that I made last year. Up to 89% of bimmerpost.com population would buy an M3 touring. Pitty that some companies are turning deaf ears to consumers.

Guess I am part of the 11%. Seems there are more of me than that here but your the numbers guy.

[Ashley Schaeffer BMW]

Can someone explain to me the appeal of a station wagon?

Are you guys going to want wood paneling on the outside too?

[BimmerMat135]

Originally Posted by Ashley Schaeffer BMW

Can someone explain to me the appeal of a station wagon?

Are you guys going to want wood paneling on the outside too?

Can you explain me the appeal of a sporty Suv?

[Ashley Schaeffer BMW]

Originally Posted by BimmerMat135

Can you explain me the appeal of a sporty Suv?

I don't find them appealing.

[BimmerMat135]

Originally Posted by Ashley Schaeffer BMW

I don't find them appealing.

You are right about the fact that a M3 Touring isn't the perfect sporty package but as bmw is going to built a X3M anyway why can't we have a F81 which for sure would drive better than the X3. Specially considering than most of the R&D for the F81 is already done.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by afadeev

These are not "some marketing stats".
This is the reality of US sales.

No matter what people say in surveys and pontificate online, BS stops at the checkout counter. Money talks.
If people are not buying wagons in sufficient numbers to justify producing them, we don't get the wagons.



Please cite all sources for your #s, as they appear to be at best unsubstantiated.

Overall European automatic tranny take rate was 20% in 2012, and growing (figure 4-11, page 52):
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default...tbook_2014.pdf

Automatic transmission is an expensive option, the one that fewer European can afford (vs. Americans).
Observe automatic transmission take rate per vehicle segment (p. 52 again) with 80+% take rate in upper-medium and luxury segments vs. sub-10% in 'small' cars.

US manual tranny sales have bottomed out at low single % digits, and rebounded to 6.5% in 2012 (last year for which I could dig up data):
http://business.time.com/2012/08/02/...e-stick-shift/

The manual take rate on performance cars is higher (helps that manual is even an option), higher yet for BMWs, and highest still on ///M cars (upto 45% with E90 M3's).



Not really.
The future includes coupes, sedans, convertibles, crossovers, SUVs, and more and more electric cars with single speed transmissions.

Just not wagons. Which were a weird combo for the days when a family could afford only one car. Once you have the budget and garage big enough for 2+ cars, wagons go extinct.

The future is the same on both sides of the pond, it's only a question of which countries can afford to buy it first.

a

Well bugger me, I was 5% out.
I was quoting SMMT figures, unfortunately my memory ain't that good it appears, hence I said was around.

So for over here we are sitting at 80% cars bought recently are Manual.

The price difference between an automatic and manual is neglible around £1500 , which is bugger all difference.

I always find it amusing on here how people always say things like 'one that Europeans can't afford compared to America'.

Just proves how little some people know..

I agree with possible future of Estates / Tourers over there.

Over here sales are actually increasing, with the likes of Mercedes, Audi, BMW stalling big Diesel engine Estates.

Yeah funnily enough we can afford cars over here, even 2 or 3.

I guess one of the big ones, is we like driving here, hence predominance of manual cars, especially hot hatches.

Where as over there drivers are predominantly lazy, hence only 6.5% manual (highest figure to date?).

The point I was making is, same argument about sales for Estates works with manuals, we have to drop a huge 80% as opposed to a measly 6.5%.

Lazy driving attitudes by your masses is killing your manual options in cars.

[jackmcclane]

Originally Posted by Ashley Schaeffer BMW

Can someone explain to me the appeal of a station wagon?

Are you guys going to want wood paneling on the outside too?

I can explain it to you, specially the BMW M models stand for the perfect mix out of everyday usability and sportiness. So a M3 station wagon would definitely make sence, and even more a M2 Gran Coupé ...

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by jackmcclane

I can explain it to you, specially the BMW M models stand for the perfect mix out of everyday usability and sportiness.

///M stands for Motorsport.
Not some mix of this and that. In the exact words of outgoing BMW M boss Dr. Nitschke: "M stands for success in motorsport".

///M model means you arebuying the fastest, best handling, and best performing variant of that model in BMW lineup.

The above goal is incompatible with the concept of a wagon.

Originally Posted by jackmcclane

So a M3 station wagon would definitely make sence, and even more a M2 Gran Coupé ...

Yes, BMW had build ///M wagons in the past.
No, they are not planning to do it in the future.
Good riddance.

a